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  #61  
Old 05-09-2004, 07:36 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by James
Actually, she does make the disclaimer that the experiences of four girls does not extrapolate into an entire system.
Despite her disclaimer, she still bases her "suggestions" to make sororities "better" at the back of the book on the four women she shadowed and her (millions, billions??) of interviews.

Some people are going to read this book and say "Yes! That's exactly how it is." and some people are going to say "What the hell is she smoking? My experience is nothing like that." And those people could be from the same exact chapter. And even the girls she shadowed could feel very different now than they did the year she interviewed them.
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Or possibly even a shindig or lollapalooza.
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  #62  
Old 05-09-2004, 07:48 PM
James James is offline
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Yes true.

I also didn't think her friend Amy had been raped in any true sense of the term. It kind of makes a mockery of women that were truly raped.
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  #63  
Old 05-09-2004, 07:51 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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James, correct me if my memory is failing me, but didn't Amy pass out and wake up to a guy having sex with her?

If so, in what world is that not rape?
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  #64  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:05 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by James
Yes true.

I also didn't think her friend Amy had been raped in any true sense of the term. It kind of makes a mockery of women that were truly raped.
Rape is any nonconsensual sex. It doesn't have to be violent to constitute as rape. I would hate for someone to tell me I wasn't really raped because some guy didn't shove me down and tear my clothes off. Violent or not, it still fucks with your head.
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  #65  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:10 PM
James James is offline
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If I remember correctly, and my brain cells are fragile , Amy was hanging out with a guy she had been hooking up with previously and she was over the frat house drinking all night and then doesn't remember what happened later, she woke up next to him the next day having had sex the night before.

She believes he must have slipped something in her drink. No one saw that though.

After that he IM'd her like nothing was wrong. They were cordial to each other and she eventually slept with him again.

Thats not normal response for a true rape victmin, although i will admit it than in the new Feminization of America, rape has become a losely defined crime.


QUOTE]Originally posted by sugar and spice
James, correct me if my memory is failing me, but didn't Amy pass out and wake up to a guy having sex with her?

If so, in what world is that not rape?
[/QUOTE]
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  #66  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:14 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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I think the stance taken by most law enforcement/health clinics/counselors/what have you (the people who define rape), if the woman is in such a state as to not give a lucid Yes to consensual sex, it is still considered rape.
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  #67  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:17 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ISUKappa
Rape is any nonconsensual sex. It doesn't have to be violent to constitute as rape. I would hate for someone to tell me I wasn't really raped because some guy didn't shove me down and tear my clothes off. Violent or not, it still fucks with your head.
Ditto.

I think one of the reasons why so many guys are quick to say that most rape allegations are false is because they don't understand rape laws. I can't think of a single state where what happened to Amy wouldn't be considered rape.

I know I've posted this on GC before but -- if she does not verbally agree to sex, it's rape.

And if she says, in the middle of sex, "Stop, I don't want to do this anymore," and the guy doesn't stop, it is potentially rape.

(However, once the sex is over I believe the statute of limitations has passed. )

Furthermore, in many places, if the woman is intoxicated she is unable to legally give consent for sex -- that is, any sex with a drunk woman could potentially be prosecuted as rape. (I am not sure how much this one is actually enforced, since despite it being a law on the books, most people would condemn her for the drunkenness -- but you should still be aware of it.)

You may argue about the fairness of laws like this, but they are valid in almost every single state and if you don't comply with them, you are at risk of getting charged with rape.
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  #68  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:19 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by James

Thats not normal response for a true rape victmin, although i will admit it than in the new Feminization of America, rape has become a losely defined crime.
Again, just curious -- as I am pretty sure this is a discussion for another thread -- but where are you getting your information from as to what is a "normal" response for a rape victim?
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  #69  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:23 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
Again, just curious -- as I am pretty sure this is a discussion for another thread -- but where are you getting your information from as to what is a "normal" response for a rape victim?
I'd kind of like to know, too. Each woman handles it differently. It took me almost a year before I did anything.
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  #70  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:45 PM
James James is offline
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It is kind of a philosophical disagreement. As you say, a women with three beers in her can say she really wasn't in her right mind and that technically could be rape. Although ultimately its only rape if there is a conviction.

I agree Sugar and spice that this is probably a a topic better discussed else where, but in a lot of case studies I have read about date rape situations it seemed more of a failure of social behavior during unusual situations.

A friend of mine just sat on a rape trial as a juror and the jury was mostly female. He said it was interesting in the back room because the women, and they were all older, were mush less sympathetic than the men.

They said that no, doesn't always mean no, in dating situations. And in the absence of violence, any struggle, or really even any threat, they voted to acquit the guy.

Rape is a rally serious crime with a lot of Jail time but we tend to use the term rather loosely. And its become a buzzword laden with a lot of emotion.

But anyway, the way amy describes it would fit the rape statute, assuming she really was drugged, of which there was no proof.

Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
Ditto.

I think one of the reasons why so many guys are quick to say that most rape allegations are false is because they don't understand rape laws. I can't think of a single state where what happened to Amy wouldn't be considered rape.

I know I've posted this on GC before but -- if she does not verbally agree to sex, it's rape.

And if she says, in the middle of sex, "Stop, I don't want to do this anymore," and the guy doesn't stop, it is potentially rape.

(However, once the sex is over I believe the statute of limitations has passed. )

Furthermore, in many places, if the woman is intoxicated she is unable to legally give consent for sex -- that is, any sex with a drunk woman could potentially be prosecuted as rape. (I am not sure how much this one is actually enforced, since despite it being a law on the books, most people would condemn her for the drunkenness -- but you should still be aware of it.)

You may argue about the fairness of laws like this, but they are valid in almost every single state and if you don't comply with them, you are at risk of getting charged with rape.
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  #71  
Old 05-09-2004, 09:01 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by James
It is kind of a philosophical disagreement. As you say, a women with three beers in her can say she really wasn't in her right mind and that technically could be rape. Although ultimately its only rape if there is a conviction.

I agree Sugar and spice that this is probably a a topic better discussed else where, but in a lot of case studies I have read about date rape situations it seemed more of a failure of social behavior during unusual situations.

A friend of mine just sat on a rape trial as a juror and the jury was mostly female. He said it was interesting in the back room because the women, and they were all older, were mush less sympathetic than the men.

They said that no, doesn't always mean no, in dating situations. And in the absence of violence, any struggle, or really even any threat, they voted to acquit the guy.

Rape is a rally serious crime with a lot of Jail time but we tend to use the term rather loosely. And its become a buzzword laden with a lot of emotion.

But anyway, the way amy describes it would fit the rape statute, assuming she really was drugged, of which there was no proof.
It is becoming quite clear that you understand little of what you speak, but you brought up some interesting points so I'll bite.

It's only rape if there's a conviction? Try again. I think I understand what you mean but it was badly phrased.

The situation you described with the jury is interesting, and probably pretty common right now -- but it will change drastically in the coming years. Many older women ARE very stringent about what constitutes a rape because they themselves were raised with the idea that if you're drinking/if you're wearing suggestive clothing/if you're flirting with the guy/if you've hooked up with him before/etc., it's your fault. However, rape laws have changed drastically since these women were growing up, and women (and men) today are being taught completely different things about whose fault it is. I'm making an educated guess that in twenty or thirty years the way the average woman views rape will be completely different, and if men don't want to get slapped with a lot of rape charges they had best start falling in line before that happens.

The whole rape issue is very much at a crossroads right now -- standards of what is acceptable and unacceptable are changing very very quickly and I think that makes it hard for a lot of people to understand the issues.


And like I said, regardless of whether or not Amy was drugged, her rape case would be a fairly easy conviction (as much as any rape case is) in most states if she had the evidence to back it up and if she chose to go forward with it. She was passed out -- thus unable to give consent -- therefore, it is pretty clearly a violation whether or not the guy thought so.
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  #72  
Old 05-09-2004, 09:15 PM
James James is offline
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Yeah I am disgreeing with some of these changes. ITs creating a wierd victim like culture where all men are potential predators and it somehow implies that women aren't fully responsible for themselves.

The man should know that if a woman is drunk and at the time she wants to have sex, that indeed she is not capable of making a decision so he should decide for her, even though he is also drunk.

Thats the way we treat children.

I meant its only rape, in a legal sense, if there is a conviction.

As far as Amy, if he maintained on his side that she wan't passed out it would be a much harder trial, his word against hers, but the ensuing scandal would follow him for a goodly portion of his life regardless.

Rape is an awful long time in jail for part of its applications to be based on perception. i. e. I would not have done that if I hadn't been drinking.


Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
It is becoming quite clear that you understand little of what you speak, but you brought up some interesting points so I'll bite.

It's only rape if there's a conviction? Try again. I think I understand what you mean but it was badly phrased.

The situation you described with the jury is interesting, and probably pretty common right now -- but it will change drastically in the coming years. Many older women ARE very stringent about what constitutes a rape because they themselves were raised with the idea that if you're drinking/if you're wearing suggestive clothing/if you're flirting with the guy/if you've hooked up with him before/etc., it's your fault. However, rape laws have changed drastically since these women were growing up, and women (and men) today are being taught completely different things about whose fault it is. I'm making an educated guess that in twenty or thirty years the way the average woman views rape will be completely different, and if men don't want to get slapped with a lot of rape charges they had best start falling in line before that happens.

The whole rape issue is very much at a crossroads right now -- standards of what is acceptable and unacceptable are changing very very quickly and I think that makes it hard for a lot of people to understand the issues.


And like I said, regardless of whether or not Amy was drugged, her rape case would be a fairly easy conviction (as much as any rape case is) in most states if she had the evidence to back it up and if she chose to go forward with it. She was passed out -- thus unable to give consent -- therefore, it is pretty clearly a violation whether or not the guy thought so.
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  #73  
Old 05-09-2004, 09:49 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Most rape cases go unreported and uninvestigated. There are a number of reasons: shame, unsurity, the victim doesn't want to go through the pain of an investigation, the victim doens't want to incur the wrath of their attacker, etc. I don't know if we'll see a trend of more rape cases being brought to trial or not.

I don't know if we're creating a victim-like culture. Rapes have been going on for ages and the victims, both men and women, just had to take it because often, in their attacker's mind, they did want it. They had no voice to speak back. Our culture is now allowing victims to have that voice.

Unfortunately, I think that more people today might be quicker to cry rape than before, especially in cases where it may be questionable, but people still need to be educated about it.

So anyway, back to Pledged. Is that Alexandra Robbins hot or what? Even with the wonky eye.
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It's gonna be a hootenanny.
Or maybe a jamboree.
Or possibly even a shindig or lollapalooza.
Perhaps it'll be a hootshinpaloozaree. I don't know.
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  #74  
Old 05-09-2004, 09:52 PM
James James is offline
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Thats what I keep saying! I have only seen he publicity stills but she looks good. We should forgive her any transgressions in her book for being good looking

Quote:
Originally posted by ISUKappa


So anyway, back to Pledged. Is that Alexandra Robbins hot or what? Even with the wonky eye.
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  #75  
Old 05-09-2004, 10:00 PM
ISUKappa ISUKappa is offline
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Ah, such the male, James.



make-up (and a good designer who knows their way around photoshop) can hide so much.
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It's gonna be a hootenanny.
Or maybe a jamboree.
Or possibly even a shindig or lollapalooza.
Perhaps it'll be a hootshinpaloozaree. I don't know.

Last edited by ISUKappa; 05-09-2004 at 10:11 PM.
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