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  #46  
Old 10-14-2005, 02:45 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by honeychile

I have several friends who home-school. Most have degrees, but maybe aren't as strong in one subject as another - BUT! Every child who is home-schooled must pass state mandated testing, and must keep up to their grade level. Most home-schooled kids are in touch with the other h-s kids in their area, and they have the same field trips, discussion groups, and outside activities that public school kids enjoy. In fact, because of the flexibility of their schedules, all of the h-s kids I know except two are above their level.
Untrue. Homeschooling laws vary wildly from state to state. Wisconsin, for example, requires no testing, and no proof to the state educational system other than a statement that you are providing 875 hours of education in a variety of subjects. Many other states are similar, or require no testing or documentation whatsoever.

I agree that many homeschooled kids are very involved in other activities. These kids are not. (When you spend the entire day teaching your little brother math and doing everyone's laundry, when would you have the time?) I also think that when utilized correctly, homeschooling is far more effective than public schooling. Again, this is not the case for this family.

Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974

Exaggerations aside, the fact remains that because some of you see it as "cruel and unusual punishment" because these kids dress modestly, are homeschooled (there are guidelines that homeschoolers must adhere to in order for it to account for squat), and basically live a life that is totally different from what you believe to be the best way (societial norm) DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD PARENTS!
I straight-out said that I have no real problem with their clothes, the fact that they are homeschooled, and that they are asked to help out around the house. You're right -- that does not make them bad parents. What makes them bad parents is the way they force their chidlren to become surrogate parents to their siblings, they do not allow their children to have individual personalities, they do not allow their children any semblance of privacy or room to grow, the fact that they do not allow their children the opportunity to have many friends other than their siblings and certainly no friends that do not share their extremely narrow worldview.

And the blanket training. Don't forget the blanket training.

Last edited by sugar and spice; 10-14-2005 at 02:52 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-14-2005, 02:56 PM
Honeykiss1974 Honeykiss1974 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
Untrue. Homeschooling laws vary wildly from state to state. Wisconsin, for example, requires no testing, and no proof to the state educational system other than a statement that you are providing 875 hours of education in a variety of subjects. Many other states are similar, or require no testing or documentation whatsoever.

Sadly you're right. My state requires things very similiar to what honeychile posted. There is a lot of paperwork/documentation that is required in order for the state to consider your homeschooling education the equivalent of a state sponsoroe education.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZTAMiami
The Duggars use this book as a model of their "parenting" style:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/children/pearl_tuac.htm
Not to hijack the thread, but is there more to this than what is posted? Granted, I only read the page that you posted and not the website, but quite honestly, I agree with what's on there - parents should because teaching/disciplining their children from day one - instead of letting them run amuck on their own until they are too old for your words to mean anything.

I lot of stuff that was on that page I'm familiar with because that's how I grew up. I grew up in the South - you said "yes ma'am, no ma'am" when your parents called - and you better come immediately when they did! lol

I firmly believe that kids are outta control today because of lack of discipline.
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  #48  
Old 10-14-2005, 02:58 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Exaggerations aside, the fact remains that because some of you see it as "cruel and unusual punishment" because these kids dress modestly, are homeschooled (there are guidelines that homeschoolers must adhere to in order for it to account for squat), and basically live a life that is totally different from what you believe to be the best way (societial norm) DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD PARENTS!
No - actually, the fact that they're apparently idiots makes them bad parents.

Let me explain, before you call for hellfire and damnation, or accuse me of assailing their way of life . . .

Look, these children are not getting their developmental needs met. This has nothing to do with fundamental Christianity (at least, in an implicit sense) - it has to do with a bizarre 'clan' structure.

There is nothing wrong with the children doing work - there is a problem with children doing all of the work.

There is nothing wrong with home schooling - there is something wrong with being responsible for teaching your younger sister mathematics.

They simply have chosen to ignore child development as we know it - this has nothing to do with 'socially accepted norms' or whatever bullshit you want to throw out there. Fundamentalist Christians are the most coddled group on the planet - no one is taking away their right to be Christian, or assailing their religion . . . simply their (markedly indefensable) choices as parents.
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  #49  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:01 PM
PM_Mama00 PM_Mama00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
Untrue. Homeschooling laws vary wildly from state to state. Wisconsin, for example, requires no testing, and no proof to the state educational system other than a statement that you are providing 875 hours of education in a variety of subjects. Many other states are similar, or require no testing or documentation whatsoever.

I agree that many homeschooled kids are very involved in other activities. These kids are not. (When you spend the entire day teaching your little brother math and doing everyone's laundry, when would you have the time?) I also think that when utilized correctly, homeschooling is far more effective than public schooling. Again, this is not the case for this family.



I straight-out said that I have no real problem with their clothes, the fact that they are homeschooled, and that they are asked to help out around the house. You're right -- that does not make them bad parents. What makes them bad parents is the way they force their chidlren to become surrogate parents to their siblings, they do not allow their children to have individual personalities, they do not allow their children any semblance of privacy or room to grow, the fact that they do not allow their children the opportunity to have many friends other than their siblings and certainly no friends that do not share their extremely narrow worldview.

And the blanket training. Don't forget the blanket training.
From their website and your points, it seriously sounds like this is a glorified prison. In their schedule it says nothing about going to play with neighborhood children. It talks about shopping and all that but when do they have time?
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  #50  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:09 PM
Honeykiss1974 Honeykiss1974 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by KSig RC
No - actually, the fact that they're apparently idiots makes them bad parents.

Let me explain, before you call for hellfire and damnation, or accuse me of assailing their way of life . . .

Look, these children are not getting their developmental needs met. This has nothing to do with fundamental Christianity (at least, in an implicit sense) - it has to do with a bizarre 'clan' structure.

There is nothing wrong with the children doing work - there is a problem with children doing all of the work.

There is nothing wrong with home schooling - there is something wrong with being responsible for teaching your younger sister mathematics.

They simply have chosen to ignore child development as we know it - this has nothing to do with 'socially accepted norms' or whatever bullshit you want to throw out there. Fundamentalist Christians are the most coddled group on the planet - no one is taking away their right to be Christian, or assailing their religion . . . simply their (markedly indefensable) choices as parents.
No need to bring Christianity into it, because that doesn't have squat to do with them being so called "bad parents". So save the "christians are coddled" speech for another thread. No where is any of my post did I bring that up because I don't see it as being the issue. If they were Muslims, I'd still feel the same way - as long as they are financially able to support these kids and are not abusing them in anyway way, really everything else is just someone's personal opinion which doesn't determine what's right or wrong nor whether your agreement of how they choose to raise their families should be cause to call social services on them.

How do KNOW they are not getting any type of outside interaction (outside of family)? There are PLENTY of ways to get that type of stimuli outside of public school - church, neighbors, other families that follow the same doctrine as they do. Is mainstream social intereaction better? Please provide your sources on this.

Goodness, *SMH*
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Last edited by Honeykiss1974; 10-14-2005 at 03:11 PM.
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  #51  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:22 PM
_Q_ _Q_ is offline
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They're also linking to http://www.visionforum.com/ , which had some extra-special stuff. They have "The All-American Boy's Adventure Catalog" that sells toy guns, slingshots, and a charming book called "Backyard Ballistics." The girls' collection seems to have a lot of dolls. One quote: "Fathers and sons can work together using How to Build Treehouses to construct a fort the whole family can enjoy and the little girls can use to hide in while their brothers play at defending them from the approaching enemy."
The whole "About Vision Forum" section is pretty scary too: http://www.visionforum.com/about/
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  #52  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:25 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974


How do KNOW they are not getting any type of outside interaction (outside of family)? There are PLENTY of ways to get that type of stimuli outside of public school - church, neighbors, other families that follow the same doctrine as they do. Is mainstream social intereaction better? Please provide your sources on this.
They do not attend church. They "attend church" at home, with their father as the preacher.

I'm sure there could be neighbors, and I'm sure that they occasionally spend time with other families. However, a schedule as structured as theirs just doesn't allow all that much time to spend with other people. The schedule on their website lists the only possibilities for free time as maaaaybe between 4-5 pm and then between 6-8 pm.

This stuff is all either on their website or on the TV specials.

I can't even believe that I have to explain why blanket training is bad, but apparently I do, sooo . . . Babies aren't MEANT to sit quietly on a blanket. They are supposed to explore the world around them, be interested in figuring things out, etc. If they don't, that is a sign of developmental problems. Blanket training not only teaches "obedience," it kills the expression of curiosity, individuality and developing self-reliance. There is a difference between punishing children for inappropriate behavior (screaming your head off in a movie theater) and punishing them for age-appropriate, totally normal and HEALTHY behavior (wanting to crawl around your living room when you're 2 years old).

If you're brought up in an environment where this is the norm and you are regularly punished for normal behavior, it will stunt your emotional development.

A lot of parents who use blanket training also use mild physical punishment to enforce it (swatting the baby with a rolled-up newspaper, etc.), which I also find apalling, but there is no proof that the Duggars engage in this so I won't judge them by those standards.
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  #53  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:25 PM
PM_Mama00 PM_Mama00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Q_
......while their brothers play at defending them from the approaching enemy."
The whole "About Vision Forum" section is pretty scary too: http://www.visionforum.com/about/
Isn't that what those kids at the David Koresh compound learn? -=-cue eerie music-=-
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  #54  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:35 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
No need to bring Christianity into it, because that doesn't have squat to do with them being so called "bad parents". So save the "christians are coddled" speech for another thread. No where is any of my post did I bring that up because I don't see it as being the issue.
For the love of . . . look, it seemed as if your soapboxing about living a lifestyle "different from the norm" had everything to do with their value set, which you've lauded, and which (combined with your past posts) would indicate to me that you're in agreement with these as Christian values - we do, in fact, read each others' posts on here.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I think you're backpeddling here - it seemed quite clear what connections you were drawing.

Else, explain to me what 'different values from the norm' they're exhibiting that you agree with? How are these separate from their Fundamentalist background? Why are you arguing with me here, when I gave tacit approval for these beliefs if they did not interfere with child development?



Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
If they were Muslims, I'd still feel the same way - as long as they are financially able to support these kids and are not abusing them in anyway way, really everything else is just someone's personal opinion which doesn't determine what's right or wrong nor whether your agreement of how they choose to raise their families should be cause to call social services on them.
It has nothing to do with child or social services - these kids are not being 'abused' in that sense. They are, however, being abused as lackeys or indentured labor, and they are being abused in terms of ability to fare in the outside world.

But hey, who are we to judge? If you can't call social services, after all, live and let live . . . but for others to mistake this type of parenting as somehow effective is degenerate logic.

Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
How do KNOW they are not getting any type of outside interaction (outside of family)? There are PLENTY of ways to get that type of stimuli outside of public school - church, neighbors, other families that follow the same doctrine as they do. Is mainstream social intereaction better? Please provide your sources on this.
Since I have a busy afternoon of being paid to drink beer and play golf, I'll get to citations later - sugar and spice did a fine job of explaining parts of why you're wrong here, and if you're still curious, I'll get into the social psychology of parenting and child development later. I suspect you won't accept my sources (all primary-source psych journals?), but I'll try. Just for you. Just in the interest of discussion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Goodness, *SMH*
Shake your head all you want, maybe it'll come unburied . . .
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  #55  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:51 PM
Honeykiss1974 Honeykiss1974 is offline
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Backpeddling LOL

Sorry but this is a large part of the problem with you and half the posts in this thread - reading stuff that isn't there. So far, its only people like you that are calling posts in this thread "wrong" because they don't go with the "flow" (I guess) of "OMG how can they do this!".

NO WHERE have I called anyone "wrong"...all I've said is (dag, here I go again) that just because they choose to live and raise their kids differently does not make them bad parents. Its really not much harder than that. Really, it isn't.

I'm glad you read other posts, because I do to, so I know where this is going when it comes to you. Glad you've got the afternoon off because I really don't have time to entertain your thoughts because quite frankly, just because KSig RC (or anyone else) says "it is", don't make it so.
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  #56  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:53 PM
mu_agd mu_agd is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
as long as they are financially able to support these kids
Aren't they only able to support the kids because they've declared themselves a church and get certain tax breaks and then having Discovery and TLC paying for everything else?
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  #57  
Old 10-14-2005, 06:25 PM
KillarneyRose KillarneyRose is offline
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I love this quote from Television without Pity:
The Duggars are part of a new trend called A Full Quiver parenting. Essentially they are Christian couples who believe that one's uterus should be entrusted to God, who may decide to fill it ten or twenty times and each child is therefore a gift from heaven.


I don't like to judge peoples' religious beliefs, but there is just something about the word quiver that makes me laugh. I don't feel like I have a quiver nor do I want one.

GC lawyers: Since they have "church services" in their home, doesn't that mean they don't have to pay taxes on the property or something like that?
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  #58  
Old 10-15-2005, 12:17 PM
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honeychile honeychile is offline
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Wow! I didn't know that Wisconsin was so backward about home schooling! The states where I have friends home schooling are PA, VA, CA, and GA - and every one of them has talked about the state testing.

KR, the Bible mentions having a full quiver *looks but doesn't see a Concordance within reach* *found one - Psalm 127*. Having one is supposed to be a blessing - but then, up until the last 100-150 years ago, having a lot of children WAS considered a blessing. As for the church status, it would depend on whether or not the family asked for the proper zoning. I can't open a store in my house without my neighborhood being zoned for it; nor can I run a tax-free church. If they DID apply and receive the zoning (which I doubt, since church zoning is harder to get than people realize because of the tax-free status), then the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the municipality.

I suppose one could make a point about their going on Discovery & TLC being the ultimate Reality Show.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sugar and Spice
Babies aren't MEANT to sit quietly on a blanket. They are supposed to explore the world around them, be interested in figuring things out, etc. If they don't, that is a sign of developmental problems. Blanket training not only teaches "obedience," it kills the expression of curiosity, individuality and developing self-reliance. There is a difference between punishing children for inappropriate behavior (screaming your head off in a movie theater) and punishing them for age-appropriate, totally normal and HEALTHY behavior (wanting to crawl around your living room when you're 2 years old).

If you're brought up in an environment where this is the norm and you are regularly punished for normal behavior, it will stunt your emotional development.
I completely agree.

It would be very interesting if there's a follow up to this story in about 10 years - what the kids are doing, where they are, did they go to college, etc. In the family I referenced, three of the kids have already done overseas mission trips, and are going to either college or seminary.

Thanks for the heads up on the Wichita jumper situation, Honeykiss! I don't mind uniforms, or even jumpers on little girls, but not after they reach about 8 years old!!
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  #59  
Old 10-15-2005, 01:19 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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It's not just Wisconsin.

This map will kind of spell things out:

http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp

From just glancing at it, it looks like there are ten states that require absolutely no documentation or checking up whatsoever, and another 15 that have requirements similar to Wisconsin, but no testing. So right there, that's half the states that are similar or even more lax than Wisconsin.

California does not necessarily require testing, but the rest of the states you mentioned do. Pennsylvania has especially strict homeschooling laws. Regulations vary a lot from state to state and anybody who plans on homeschooling definitely should be doing their research based on their own state laws.

I will also mention that in some states, the testing can be bypassed if the student is enrolled in correspondence course-style schools (they aren't officially considered "homeschooled"). Some of these programs are pretty good and others, well, not so much.
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Old 10-15-2005, 02:17 PM
aephi alum aephi alum is offline
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Wow. That's, uh... a lot of kids.

If this couple wants to bring 16 (or more) children into this world, and they can adequately care for them and provide food, clothing, shelter, and education, then that's fine. And it's natural, in a family that size, that the older children will have to help out with the chores and the smaller children. (Hell, I had chores and I was an only child.)

But it looks like the older children are being made to act almost as parents. According to the website, each older child is responsible for one or two younger children - making sure they wash up and brush their teeth, teaching them their lessons, etc. Jill cooks lunch, and Janna cooks dinner, every day, each by herself. It's not wrong to ask the older children to help out with the little ones, change a diaper now and then, feed a baby, cook dinner from time to time - but ultimately, the responsibilty for taking care of the little ones (indeed, all the children) should rest with Mom and Dad, not a 12-year-old.

Another thing: Part of being a parent is preparing your children to function in society as adults. These children are home-schooled. If they're not being evaluated by the state (are they?) their education may be inadequate. (Nothing wrong with home-schooling, as long as the kids learn everything they need to know.) They've also apparently had next to no opportunities for social interaction. Most home-schooled children still get out of the house and interact with other kids in the context of dance/music/karate/etc. lessons and/or sports and/or activities with home-schooled kids in other families - these children aren't being given those opportunities. I don't really think that "Joshua, 17" is ready to go to the big city and attend college or find a job and interact with people who don't share the beliefs he's been raised with.

(And speaking of college, can you imagine having to pay tuition for maybe 5 kids at a time? Maybe they can get a volume discount )
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