Black and White--Is it an issue?

[serenity_24]

I could not make it to the second page of this post because the comments made by Alabama were so disturbing.

The thing is sooooooo many people in this world have the exact same views as she does, and if they were bold enough, they would yell out "right on sista!!!!", in support of her comments.

The problem with that is, the black community's need to be proud stems from many years of "seasoning". When we were brought to American colonies as slaves they took us to certain places and litrally forced us to forget our heritage. From there, they made us feel like we were less than animals, not even human. We were not given the right to vote, and even moreso, the right to just take a sip of water from a founain on a hot summer's day, or much less sit and rest our feet on busses when we were tired of walking. These are the things my mother and aunts and uncles were subjected to. All this because they were black. Would any of us if given a chance choose to be black during times like this? The pains of this process are still evident today by the fact that some sisters are scared to wear their hair natural for fear that it would look too nappy, and that's just one example.

So the truth is, we need to assert that we are proud to be black, because even in my lifetime there are still people who feel ashamed to be black and it is because of the LEGACY of slavery.

[serenity_24]

Sorry everybody, but I guess you can see by my posts, that I am new to the forum, so I am replying to all of these old posts first.

This goes out to Tillennium01 if she is still interested.

I was born and raised in Nashville,Tn, so I know a great deal about Tennessee State University, and all that is going on on it's campus.

TSU is a wonderful school with a rich African American history. However, in the recent past, the state has been threatening to close TSU down unless it made it's enrollement 50% Black and 50% White. They have been giving out "minority" scholarships to White's like crazy in an attempt to meet these standards. (I should state that I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say "whites", just stating what is going on there) That is how Sigma Pi got on the TSU campus in the first place.

Now, at TSU, the students are not just sitting back and taking this without a fight. They have picketted at the state capitol, they have arranged sit-ins and the whole nine. The reason they are fighting it is because UT Knoxville is also a state school, but the state is not forcing them to level out the demographics of their enrollement. Neither are they complaining about other schools such as Middle Tennessee State, or Austin Peay State, because these schools, in the TSU student's oppinion and factually, are predominantly white. This year, they threatened to revoke TSU's accredidation if the "numbers" aren't up to parr.

So, the student's feel that if Sigma Pi is going to be on their campus, they are not going to be exclusive. To my knowledge, at this time there are still no minority members affiliated with the group.

[HeidiHo]

I know some girls mentioned that they were interested in one specific sorority & this is in attempt to make rushing easier on them. I'm not sure how rush works for BGLOs, but I rushed this year(GLO)& we went to every house the 1st night, and went to less houses per night for a week. (7 on Sat, 6 on Sun, 5 on Mon, 4 on Wed, 2 on Thur) Going to each house gives you the chance to find a place where you feel comfy & agree with the values of the org. If I had to decide on a sorority with out that experience, I never would have. If you believe that you've found your home with out exploring all the options, you are so lucky. If you're unsure even a tiny bit, check everyone out.

[equeen]

Here's another perspective on this topic: what about newer organizations, which are not specifically ethnic-interest - are those organizations also considered WGLOs, or PWGLOs, by members of BGLOs, AGLOs, LGLOs? After all, organizations like mine (which have been established in the late 1900s) are predominately white, though many members are not.

There are a lot of Asian, and Hispanic-interest fraternities and sororities established lately. Then there are GLOs like mine - not ethnic-interest, yet special-interest. So, is a young Asian, Hispanic, or Black woman considered to be selling out to her heritage if she chooses an NPC sorority, or an independant sorority like mine, over a sorority that represents her background?

There are no Asian Indian sororities out there (though there are several Asian Indian fraternities now, and I believe a "council" of sorts that aims to unite them) - what's public opinion of a young Asian Indian woman like me, who brings a chapter of special-interest GLO to her school, rather than etsablishing a brand-new GLO reflective of her heritage? Have I sold out on my Indian heritage?

What troubles me about this dialogue is that it's often assumed that a person of color/heritage has:
(a) no cultural pride, or
(b) has made a misinformed decision at best, if they choose a GLO other than the one that reflects their background.

I've heard it mentioned that one should never join a greek organization because of what it isn't, but for what it is. There are a lot of young ladies who showed a lot interest in A.S.K. when my Chapter was brought to campus, who were solely interested because they wanted to to experience sisterhood that was "not typical greek." That's just not a good reason to rush and pledge. Though the assumption can be made that my sorority isn't typical greek, there are more profound (and positive) reasons why one would want to rush A.S.K. In the same vein, I think it's persuing interest in a greek org. only because it reflects one's ethnicity, or rejecting interest in a greek org. because it doesn't reflect one's ethnicity, is making a decision because of negative reasons, not positives. Rather, I would encourage persuing interest in a greek org. that reflects one's values, whether those values are based on serving one's ethnic community, promoting women in technical fields, etc.

Finally, I'd like to share an incident that occured at a rush event for my sorority a few years back:

A rushee asked me what our breakdown by ethnicity was, nationally and at our Chapter. She was curious to know if there were many black women in our organization, since she was black. I balked - I had no idea, we don't keep statistics. So I said, very frankly, that I had no idea - but then, we were interested in women who identified with our values, to promote and sustain women in technical fields.

This young woman ended up pledging and intiating our sorority. She experienced Sisterhood amongst women of her heritage (through church and community organizations, though not a greek organization), and she felt that experiencing Sisterhood that reflected her professional interests could only enhance her as a person. I am proud to call my Sister both a Sister and my best friend - because we both share a love for our respective heritages, we share in the Sisterly bond, and we simply have so much in common.

I challenge anyone to say that either of us have made a misinformed choice, have sold out to our respective cultures, that we aren't truly accepted by our white sisters because we are not white, or that we choose to forget the distinctions of our heriage - simply by not choosing an ethnic GLO.




------------------
equeen
A Lioness has her Pride!
@>--;--
Always
Seek
Knowledge
Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies

[This message has been edited by equeen (edited December 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by equeen (edited December 13, 2000).]

[AKA_Monet]

One thing a person of color must understand that once you decide to join an organization outside of your heritage that all the rights, attributes, experiences after graduation--especially when you work for many years in the corporate sector will make it very, very difficult to re-enter a world that you once denied in your youth.

Your decision to join an organization based on young, altruistic feelings and attitudes, although highly noble, may be one filled with regret when you decide to re-enter certain societies long after graduation. The adults you encounter will rarely understand your positions you took in your youth. You will find that your conjectured ideals of BGLO's and their current obsoletion is not so outdated as you observed on your predominately majority university.

A person of color must understand that your decision you made at a time of your youth will travel with you for the rest of your life... You must be ready to completely assimilate into that society that you will join. Yes, it may seem as a cop-out by my fellow persons of color who choose to stay within their heritage. However, when you get older, decide to marry within your group, interact with your neighborhood you will have a very tough time in being understood as trustworthy. I say this because I know. I am 30-something, I've seen how it is with those who wish to reintegrate back into their heritage after they have denied it in their youth. Some people don't want you back...

Not to mention that BGLO's have a very close network and when you meet someone in a BGLO several years after graduation, it is like you share this common interest, a common bond. Professional men of BGLO fraternities speak to me just because I am a member in my sorority... That is how I met my boyfriend who is a member of a BGLO fraternity. I met him outside of a resturant, just because I wore my 'nalia. I bet the same goes for my other fellow culturally based greek organizations.

Then, would you think a fortune 500 company CEO will readily recognize you as a member in their organization when you apply for that corporate high paying job? Can that attitude be guarenteed? I know it is for the BGLO's... What do you think the talented 10 meant? Or do the little old caucasian ladies huddle in a corner, clutching their purses because you got into the elevator? Ask yourself, is that the life you truly desire? Then from there, in the future, how fun will your experiences have been when you find yourself around all these "Buppies" that are talking about how the Step Correct Show went off and who won and whether you would truly really feel a part of that discussion? Or would you just prefer drinking beer every weekend with your "buddies" for the rest of your life with no "game"?

Sure, some of my fellow undergraduate members may seem to have lackluster in your eyes. Are you sure your eyes are not jaded?

Recently, 4 traditional GLO fraternities got suspended from the university where I teach because they caused their pledges to be alcohol poisoned. Not to say the BGLO's don't do that ever. However, our mission statements are very clear what we do internationally. So, there would be no reason to make our pledges drunk for fun... Just got too many issues goin' on in our communities that we cannot let falter--high crime rates, poverty, infant mortality and these bad things are happening in the most industrialized nation of the world... Why? If not now, then when? If not me, then who? MLK...

[toocute]

Originally posted by LanderAEPi:
The terrible thing about my campus (Washington University) is the racial separation. There's the Interfraternity Council (IFC) that oversees the twelve "normal" fraternities. Then, there's the Panhellenic Council, which oversees the six "normal" sororities.

WITHOUT GOING THROUGH 4 PAGES OFF POSTS...DID THIS PERSON EVER SAY WHAT A "NORMAL" FRAT OR SORORITY? ARE BLACK FRATS AND SORORITIES NOT "NORMAL" :EEK:

[dz_theta]

I would like to start out by saying that AKA_Monet's comments on reasons blacks should not join GLO's were overgeneralized and failed to take individual experiences into account. What is best for one person may not necessarily be the best option for another. The way you chose to state your opinions really made me doubt your ability to have an open mind about this subject, but I'll attempt to show you my perspective on things anyway...

Originally posted by AKA_Monet:
Your decision to join an organization based on young, altruistic feelings and attitudes, although highly noble, may be one filled with regret when you decide to re-enter certain societies long after graduation. The adults you encounter will rarely understand your positions you took in your youth. You will find that your conjectured ideals of BGLO's and their current obsoletion is not so outdated as you observed on your predominately majority university.

In all honesty, I feel that this truly depends on the situation. Granted, if a black person who joined a GLO graduates and decides to "enter certain societies," is it not up to that person to decide what societies he or she wishes to join? Not every black person grew up in a black community (me, for example). Not every black person has strong personal ties to the black community. Consequently, why would I want to suddenly become immersed in the black community when I graduate? And the people I do happen to interact with shouldn't pass judgements on my character and intelligence based on sorority affiliation alone. If they do, I probably would not associate myself with them. Also, when a person makes a conscious decision to join a sorority or fraternity, they obviously take the future into account.

A person of color must understand that your decision you made at a time of your youth will travel with you for the rest of your life... You must be ready to completely assimilate into that society that you will join. Yes, it may seem as a cop-out by my fellow persons of color who choose to stay within their heritage.

This is the lamest excuse black people use when telling someone why they shouldn't hang out with "whites." Who decided what is considered "staying within their heritage"? Like I stated earlier, if someone truly feels that I have "copped out" then I probably won't associate myself with them. Would it be not be just as valid if I said you were self-segregating? By not allowing yourself to experience new things are you not completely excluding a group of people that could possibly teach you a lot about life? By the way, yes I am proud of my heritage, but I'm also proud of myself.

However, when you get older, decide to marry within your group, interact with your neighborhood you will have a very tough time in being understood as trustworthy.

Not my problem. For every 1 person who deems me as untrustworty there is another person who does trust me. And it doesn't matter to me what color they are.

I am 30-something, I've seen how it is with those who wish to reintegrate back into their heritage after they have denied it in their youth. Some people don't want you back...

If that's the way you truly feel, I hope to never come into contact with you. Just because you are "30-something" doesn't make you an expert on human nature (no offense). I am by no means an expert on ANYTHING but I really took personal offense to that comment. Opinions like yours made me second guess my decision to rush. I thought, "what are all the black girls gonna say about me behind my back" and "are the black people on campus going to look down upon me because of my decision," blah, blah, blah. But then I realized I should do whatever the hell I wanted and if they didn't agree then it's their fault for not being supportive of a member of the community. Just like you are not being supportive.

Then, would you think a fortune 500 company CEO will readily recognize you as a member in their organization when you apply for that corporate high paying job? Can that attitude be guarenteed? I know it is for the BGLO's... What do you think the talented 10 meant? Or do the little old caucasian ladies huddle in a corner, clutching their purses because you got into the elevator? Ask yourself, is that the life you truly desire? Then from there, in the future, how fun will your experiences have been when you find yourself around all these "Buppies" that are talking about how the Step Correct Show went off and who won and whether you would truly really feel a part of that discussion? Or would you just prefer drinking beer every weekend with your "buddies" for the rest of your life with no "game"?

Ok, this argument held true (most definately) in the 1960's and 1970's (and before), less so in the 80's and has been decreasing since. It would be more true if I were paranoid all the time about discrimination and being "held down by the man." The women in my sorority have yet to make me feel even the slightest bit uncomfortable, quite the opposite of how I felt when I first met a member of AKA during my freshman year... but I won't get into it.

Recently, 4 traditional GLO fraternities got suspended from the university where I teach because they caused their pledges to be alcohol poisoned.

Perfect example of overgeneralization. My chapter has a very strict alcohol policy and hazing is not tolerated in any way, shape, or form. This policy is also held campus wide.

I would like to end by saying that I can truly see where you're coming from with your arguments. I mean, being black, it's kind of hard to completely disregard certain aspects of society. But at the same time, I can't agree with anything you've said. I grew up in a white community, am currently attending a predominately white, private university, and (you might want to sit down for this one) dating a white man whom I love very much. To say that I should join a BGLO so as not to deny my "heritage" would involve me giving up what I have grown up around and known for 19 years. I am most uncomfortable when I am around a group of black women who are not from the same background as me. Not because they put me in an uncomfortable situation on purpose, but I'm just not used to it. And in most cases they can sense that. I really would like to expound on the topic a bit more but it is 4 in the morning and I still have exams to study for (boo finals!). Hope to hear from you soon~

dz_theta

Kappa Alpha Theta
Delta Zeta Chapter
Emory University


[This message has been edited by dz_theta (edited December 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by dz_theta (edited December 13, 2000).]

[xp2k]

I'll just start off by saying "issues'...
You seem to have them AKA_monet. Like the DZ said above, you have GREATLY overgeneralized the non-divine 9 greek experience.

Here is what you said...

One thing a person of color must understand that once you decide to join an organization outside of your heritage that all the rights, attributes, experiences after graduation--especially when you work for many years in the corporate sector will make it very, very difficult to re-enter a world that you once denied in your youth.

OK...when have I ever left society? Unlike the DZ above, I grew in an all black neighborhood. My family has even lived in slums. I'm glad of my past experiences because it has made me a stronger person. I deeply identify with my own people and Im still attend my black church, and help out at the soup kitchen, and next semester I plan on volunteering at the center. I havent stopped being black (thats an entirely differernt subject), never have, never will.

Your decision to join an organization based on young, altruistic feelings and attitudes, although highly noble, may be one filled with regret when you decide to re-enter certain societies long after graduation. The adults you encounter will rarely understand your positions you took in your youth. You will find that your conjectured ideals of BGLO's and their current obsoletion is not so outdated as you observed on your predominately majority university.

I didnt join a BGLO because I have too many friends of too many different races. Some of my friends crossed before I event looked into getting on line and I saw how they "changed". All of a sudden, they had become black elitist. They were now a part of an "elite" class of people and they hardly associated with anyone outside of their little cliques. This especially happened racially. Dont get me wrong, I am proud to be an african-american, but I dont condone assuming that you're better then an entire group of people, whether they do it or not.

A person of color must understand that your decision you made at a time of your youth will travel with you for the rest of your life... You must be ready to completely assimilate into that society that you will join.

You have to admit this sounds a little crazy. I belong to a historically white fraternity where the minority of people actually are white. There are white, black, jewish, asian, indian and middle-eastern people in my house. Thats why I joined, because everyone was so cool and down to earth and I didnt have to worry about leaving my friends behind. Since I've joined this house I've met so many more friends of every different race. Joining a GLO meant assimilating into a world society. That will be important since the planet does extend past North America. And it is bigger then the greek system.

However, when you get older, decide to marry within your group, interact with your neighborhood you will have a very tough time in being understood as trustworthy.

Strange, because I didnt join a BGLO, I'm a traitor. I go home now, and people dont treat me any different. These are people who I'll grow up with. If they accept me now, if they accepted me 10, 15, 20 years ago, why wont they accept me in the future. I think you're taking this WAY too serious and should have your head examined.

I say this because I know. I am 30-something, I've seen how it is with those who wish to reintegrate back into their heritage after they have denied it in their youth. Some people don't want you back...

Glad to know you dont have better things to do then tell those of us who joined GLO's that we dont have a future...in anything.
and Back? again...when did I ever leave?

Not to mention that BGLO's have a very close network and when you meet someone in a BGLO several years after graduation, it is like you share this common interest, a common bond. Professional men of BGLO fraternities speak to me just because I am a member in my sorority... That is how I met my boyfriend who is a member of a BGLO fraternity. I met him outside of a resturant, just because I wore my 'nalia. I bet the same goes for my other fellow culturally based greek organizations.

Then, would you think a fortune 500 company CEO will readily recognize you as a member in their organization when you apply for that corporate high paying job? Can that attitude be guarenteed? I know it is for the BGLO's... What do you think the talented 10 meant? Or do the little old caucasian ladies huddle in a corner, clutching their purses because you got into the elevator?

I'm neither naive nor stupid. I dont think that by joining a GLO, I will completely be immune to racism. And as for business, nationally there are a lot of black guys in my fraternity. And besides that, I've met some great contacts. Honestly, I'm a genious. I'm smart and I have a great personality. I dont NEED to depend on my fraternity to make all of my contacts. I've learned how to network on my own. And besides, I'm still networking with black people, as well all of the different peoples who I have met since becoming greek. And the talented 10th meant the the few of us who have the talents and resources to be successful should use it to help ALL of our brothers, not just those in the "phat nine".

Ask yourself, is that the life you truly desire? Then from there, in the future, how fun will your experiences have been when you find yourself around all these "Buppies" that are talking about how the Step Correct Show went off and who won and whether you would truly really feel a part of that discussion? Or would you just prefer drinking beer every weekend with your "buddies" for the rest of your life with no "game"?

Actually my buddies do have game. I have game. Your dad probably drank beer, does that make him a loser? I'll admit, I like to drink beer. Is that the end of my social existence? I go to step shows and neophytes and have a good time. I date black women, I have plans to marry one. I get on Devistating DST's, Royal SGRho's, Finer zPHIb's and those lovely, lovely women of AKA. I invite them to our parties and I go to theirs. Besides, you're the one who probably doesnt have any game if you have to wear your letters to get a boyfriend.

Sure, some of my fellow undergraduate members may seem to have lackluster in your eyes. Are you sure your eyes are not jaded?

I think very highly of the divine 9. In fact, two of my friends are presidents of their respective organizations. I will admite, the historically black greek system has accomplished so much for our community.

Recently, 4 traditional GLO fraternities got suspended from the university where I teach because they caused their pledges to be alcohol poisoned. Not to say the BGLO's don't do that ever. However, our mission statements are very clear what we do internationally. So, there would be no reason to make our pledges drunk for fun... Just got too many issues goin' on in our communities that we cannot let falter--high crime rates, poverty, infant mortality and these bad things are happening in the most industrialized nation of the world... Why? If not now, then when? If not me, then who? MLK...

If we have so many issues, then why add another one by excluding people who didnt join a BGLO? A lot of us have the same goals, your fraternity/sorority shouldnt necessarily be what decides them.

And dont get me started on hazing, drinking, etc. It happens everywhere. Since the NPHC forced the divine nine to pledge underground, hazing has REALLY been a problem on the yard. You may have good intentions, but really, you dont need to beat the hell out of somebody to see if their worthy of seeing your "light". Yeah, people should have to work hard to join a fraternity/sorority (I did, WITHOUT hazing), but they shouldnt physically suffer.

You truly have my sympathy aka_monet. It's people like you who cause this trauma. Going greek is an important decision that people should think deeply about, but in all seriousness, the world doesnt revolved around fraternities and sororities. What about people who never joined? Ever heard of Oprah? She didnt need to be greek to succeed. In fact, she turned down honorary membership. Why? What does she has to gain, she made it on her own. Or Spike Lee. He leans on the entire black community for support, not just BGLO members.

good luck on finals to all and everyone have a nice holiday.

XP2k

[PositivelyAKA]

to the original question, is Black and White an issue? yes, because alot of people in this country still want it to be. some of you will never experience prejudice based on your race. therefore since you do not see it, you do not understand/believe it to be a reality and i guess unfortunately i can understand that. so this breeds miscommunication on both our parts lets all try to listen more to each other and try to put yourself in the other person's shoes even if you do not agree, its ok not to agree, don't assume they are just complaining, give them the benifit of the doubt, you might be susprised at what you learn, i've learned that many of the younger generations do not subscribe to their parents/grandparents prejudices, these young men and women do not want to live in a race based priviledged society, they want to be free to listen to rap or country, go to Moorehouse or UCLA and not be questioned about their racial make up on a job appliction. so perhaps there is some progress in the making

with regards to sorority and fraternity membership, i believe you should join the organization you feel you will be able to contribute the most to or get the most out of, if thats your agenda. i've learned that not all black men and women share the same values, interests etc. the same can be said for white men and women. so i don't try to force people into categories that may cramp them. of course not everyone will agree with your decision, but that's life. so go for what you know. GLO or BGLO.

DZ_Theta i'm concerned that you do not feel comfortable being around black women when you are a black woman. you don't have to be raised in a black community or listen to rap music to feel a connection or want one with your own black sisters, we are very diverse you know or do you? anyway i'm glad you are having sucess in your life and hope that you will continue to do so. although i think it would be healthy and wise for you to work on building some relationships with your black community. take care.

[This message has been edited by PositivelyAKA (edited January 08, 2001).]