Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'd rather discuss effective ways to prevent college women from becoming victims and college men from being falsely accused of being rapists. You would rather discuss what all this stuff MEANS?

Honorgal, have you ever worked on a Task Force of any sort? Do you not realize that reaching common ground and recommending policies/practices/laws requires an understanding of MEANING?

You have been going back and forth for pages because the MEANING of your posts is confusing to a couple of us. Imagine if you were a member of a Crime/Campus Safety Task Force and some people did not understand the points you were making. There can be no progress without first understanding MEANING.

BTW, since "false dichotomy" is the theme of this thread: You only have two categories (the bolded). Do you really only see two categories in all of this? Speaking of MEANING....

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Okay, honorgal.

Back to your interpretation of data and campus safety, do you now understand the data and overall safety of college campuses? Does that help you to understand the data and this topic?

I understand enough to know that the risk isn't anything close to 1 in 5. Many parents wouldn't put their daughters in such a dangerous environment.

Speaking of campus safety, there are non-students who (live not too far from and therefore) target college campuses for robbery, burglary, and violence? Why? Because they know that despite every effort from campus police and public safety, college students (and some staff and faculty) are careless, shortsighted, and trusting. Can that factor into sexual assault and rape, that depends on the circumstances.

I disagree that they are making every effort. Not even close. They could very frankly tell young men and women the risks they run when they have drunken hookups. Instead, the major focus seems to be on the process schools will follow after the fact.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I understand enough to know that the risk isn't anything close to 1 in 5.

Then TELL US what it is.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Many parents wouldn't put their daughters in such a dangerous environment.

You have clearly never worked in college admissions or read the crime data for some of the most popular colleges in the country.

Originally Posted by honorgal

I disagree that they are making every effort. Not even close. They could very frankly tell young men and women the risks they run when they have drunken hookups. Instead, the major focus seems to be on the process schools will follow after the fact.

"Despite every effort" is a common phrase that does not mean that every possible effort has been attempted. No campus will ever attempt or accomplish every possible effort. There will always be issues with budget, student naysayers, staff naysayers, faculty naysayers, community naysayers, and parent naysayers.

For example, there are parents who do not want campus crime incidents published; who prefer to have campus safety without having actual sworn law enforcement; and who do not want their "children" to take college courses on campus safety, binge drinking, and safe and consensual sex. So, you see how it can be impossible to override the naysayers.

But, have you researched the campus police and public safety of most college campuses to see their efforts? Did you know that some colleges have campus safety programs, courses, and departments? Did you know that some college campuses require classes on binge drinking, sex, and other issues that impact college campuses?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Honorgal, have you ever worked on a Task Force of any sort? Do you not realize that reaching common ground and recommending policies/practices/laws requires an understanding of MEANING?

LOL! Not that it matters a jot, but yes, I have lots of experience in this realm. But this isn't a task force, it is an internet discussion board, where we are expressing our opinions.

You have been going back and forth for pages because the MEANING of your posts is confusing to a couple of us. Imagine if you were a member of a Crime/Campus Safety Task Force and some people did not understand the points you were making. There can be no progress without first understanding MEANING.

BTW, since "false dichotomy" is the theme of this thread: You only have two categories (the bolded). Do you really only see two categories in all of this? Speaking of MEANING....

I'm sorry you are confused. Maybe you should spend more time reading what I've said instead of trying to misquote me.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

LOL! Not that it matters a jot, but yes, I have lots of experience in this realm. But this isn't a task force, it is an internet discussion board, where we are expressing our opinions.

point --------------------------------------------------------------- you

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'm sorry you are confused. Maybe you should spend more time reading what I've said instead of trying to misquote me.

Here I go again having to remind you of your own words:

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'd rather discuss effective ways to prevent college women from becoming victims and college men from being falsely accused of being rapists. You would rather discuss what all this stuff MEANS?

Are those the only two categories that you acknowledge?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then TELL US what it is.

. I already posted the DOJ link. It equates to about 1 in 40, not 1 in 5. Still too high (as I already stated) but not a crisis.

You have clearly never worked in college admissions or read the crime data for some of the most popular colleges in the country.



"Despite every effort" is a common phrase that does not mean that every possible effort has been attempted. No campus will ever attempt or accomplish every possible effort. There will always be issues with budget, student naysayers, staff naysayers, faculty naysayers, community naysayers, and parent naysayers.

For example, there are parents who do not want campus crime incidents published; who prefer to have campus safety without having actual sworn law enforcement; and who do not want their "children" to take college courses on campus safety, binge drinking, and safe and consensual sex. So, you see how it can be impossible to override the naysayers.

But, have you researched the campus police and public safety of most college campuses to see their efforts? Did you know that some colleges have campus safety programs, courses, and departments? Did you know that some college campuses require classes on binge drinking, sex, and other issues that impact college campuses?

My husband has worked in higher ed on a college campus for 25 years. My 3 kids basically grew up on the campus. I'm very familiar with the culture.

[AGDee]

In my experience colleges are telling men and women both how to avoid these situations (rape and false accusation) but both still put themselves in risky situations. Colleges are telling men and women how to avoid alcohol poisoning and death but they still do it. College students are still adolescents in their "It won't happen to me" thinking.

[honorgal]

Are those the only two categories that you acknowledge?

Only two categories of what? If your point is that there are also sometimes male victims and female perps, yes, of course there are.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AGDee

In my experience colleges are telling men and women both how to avoid these situations (rape and false accusation) but both still put themselves in risky situations. Colleges are telling men and women how to avoid alcohol poisoning and death but they still do it. College students are still adolescents in their "It won't happen to me" thinking.

In my experience, men and women are hearing very mixed messages. For instance, see the shit storm that ensued when feminist-in-good-standing Emily Yoffe wrote this common sense piece for Slate.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...onnection.html

[AGDee]

Because the message to women regarding rape is and always has been that they asked for it by their own behavior and that's total BS. That's primarily why women don't go to the proper authorities and often don't pursue charges even when they do. Like in the article DeltaBetaBaby posted, everyone treats the women as though they were the criminal.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I already posted the DOJ link. It equates to about 1 in 40, not 1 in 5. Still too high (as I already stated) but not a crisis.

As I was explaining in an earlier post, "data battles" always fail. When attempting to dispute data, you need to read and understand various data sources from differing years and understand the full contexts of the data.

Read this 2000 report, especially page 10 under "how extensive is rape among college women" paying particular attention to the paragraph beginning with "at first glance...": https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Read these:
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...s/welcome.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...measuring.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...-attacker.aspx

(speaking of cultural factors/correlates found in research) http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...ased-risk.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...ages/laws.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...revention.aspx

For someone who claims not to care about MEANING, you sure are putting a lot of emphasis on "crisis" as though only you know the true meaning of "crisis". So, when does this become a "crisis"? Who gets to determine that?

Originally Posted by honorgal

My husband has worked in higher ed on a college campus for 25 years. My 3 kids basically grew up on the campus. I'm very familiar with the culture.

Is that your way of saying you already knew/agree with what I posted and you are just typing to be contrary? Thanks for finally admitting that.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Only two categories of what? If your point is that there are also sometimes male victims and female perps, yes, of course there are.

What about talking to the men about the risk and potential of being "perpetrators"? Is this supposedly a hopeless and unreachable population?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

As I was explaining in an earlier post, "data battles" always fail. That's why laypersons tend to do "data battles" whereas most experts have realized the silliness of it all. You need to read and understand various data sources from differing years and understand the full contexts of the data.

Read this 2000 report, especially page 10 under "how extensive is rape among college women" paying particular attention to the paragraph beginning with "at first glance...": https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

Read these:
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...s/welcome.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...measuring.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...-attacker.aspx

(speaking of cultural factors/correlates found in research) http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...ased-risk.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...ages/laws.aspx

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape...revention.aspx

For someone who claims not to care about MEANING, you sure are putting a lot of emphasis on "crisis" as though only you know the true meaning of "crisis". So, when does this become a "crisis"? Who gets to determine that?

Dr. Phil, the President and Vice President of the United States (among others) have declared it a crisis, citing the 1 in 5 statistic. It's been all over the news being declared a crisis. What in the heck are you babbling on about here?

Is that your way of saying you already knew/agree with what I posted and you are just typing to be contrary? Thanks for finally admitting that.

There you go again.

[AGDee]

The only person I've seen use the word crisis here at all is honorgal. Although, a single rape is a crisis to the person who has been subject to it.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What about talking to the men about the risk and potential of being "perpetrators"? Is this supposedly a hopeless and unreachable population?

Do you mean talking to them about the risk of being falsely accused? Of consent? Both?