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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.


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  #151  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:12 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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First of all, you're comparing apples to oranges.

You say that people go through this in the Army. But that is EXPECTED. The reason they go through physical training is so that they can be physically prepared to KILL PEOPLE and DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY. Not so that they can sit in chapter meetings and participate in philanthropies.

And if you seriously think that the physical training in the Army (which in turn results in emotional training), doesn't truly effect soldiers mentally in a negative way, then you obviously don't know anyone who has served their country.

And not to sound mean or anything, but aren't you the one who posted the thread a little while back asking for recruitment advice because your membership is down to 3 people?

Maybe you should re-evaluate what you're doing to your "pledges", or whatever you choose to call them, before you attempt to bring in a ton of new people.
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  #152  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:13 PM
one800thekiller one800thekiller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
You're right. The mental damage IS in your head. That's why it's called MENTAL damage.

And permanent damage or not, it is hurting someone. You'd be surprised at how many people that can affect. Just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it isn't hurting someone else. And a lot of people won't say anything. And do you want to know why? Because you're guys, and you're taught not to show any emotion, and you're afraid to share feelings with other guys.

But I guarantee that there are guys, probably in your fraternity, who have been hurt by hazing. Because I've seen it happen, and I've had guys come to me to talk about it. And while they don't tell me exactly what is involved in the program, they are clearly upset about it, whether they get into the fraternity or not.



Your right, there have been guys who have been "hurt" by hazing.
That is the point.....to break them down...to make them realize its all in their head. They learn to trust their pledge brothers and there potential brothers...and in the end it all makes sense...there is a point to it all.
And, as i have previously stated, No one is forcing them to be there. Nor is anyone forcing them to do anything.


[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Devin/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]However, you are wrong about the guys not sharing. That is what so many people fail to realize. They assume that guys won't share anything. I have had meeting where my pledge brother broke down in tears, and thats the point.......to break them..and then rebuild them. That is the point in hazing, and that is something that I honestly don't expect anyone who hasn't been through it to understand.


But, until I hear it from someone who has been hazed, and doesn't see the greater good in it.....i refuse to believe that hazing(as long as there is a meaning behind it) is a negative thing. In fact, to be 100 percent honest, I don't believe that someone who hasn't been through it, really has the right to even talk about it as if they know anything about it.

In my opinion, people who haven't gone through a process with hazing, but are trying to talk about how harmful it is, don't have a clue.

I mean, can someone who has never played golf in their life accurately help you correct your golf swing?...more than likely not so much.

can someone who has never been stabbed with a knife..accurately describe the pain of being stabbed with one?

No..the person has not gone through it, and therefor has no real insight to the good, nor the evil of hazing
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  #153  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:22 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Um, I've never been stabbed with a knife, but I can tell you that it isn't a good thing.

Just like I haven't been hazed, but I can tell you that's not a good thing either.

And please, don't tell me what I do and don't know, because I have seen some people seriously upset and physically screwed up because of what was done to them. And you can sit here and say "they couldn't take it" all you want, but that says to me that you just don't care. And that's sad.

And I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because you refuse to address the things that I say (the Army analogy, your chapter struggling with recruitment) simply so that you can get your point across.

So I'm done.

End of story.
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  #154  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:28 PM
one800thekiller one800thekiller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
Um, I've never been stabbed with a knife, but I can tell you that it isn't a good thing.

Just like I haven't been hazed, but I can tell you that's not a good thing either.

And please, don't tell me what I do and don't know, because I have seen some people seriously upset and physically screwed up because of what was done to them. And you can sit here and say "they couldn't take it" all you want, but that says to me that you just don't care. And that's sad.

And I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because you refuse to address the things that I say (the Army analogy, your chapter struggling with recruitment) simply so that you can get your point across.

So I'm done.

End of story.


OK, i will start with the stabbing comment.

No, you haven't been stabbed and you tell me it is a bad thing to be stabbed, but this is not based on experiences...its based on what you have heard.....

as far as hazing goes..it is an assumption that you have made in your head, a generalization if you will, that all hazing is bad. This is not based on life experience, but rather it is based on what others have told you.

Now, I am not arguing that ALL hazing is good, by any means. But there is a time and place where it is appropriate, and it is for the greater good of the organization.

As I said, being as you haven't experienced it first hand, i don't expect you to understand.

As far as people who complaining not being able to "cut it", i never said anything like that.

I would never dream of forcing a pledge to do something they didn't want to do, nor would i do something to put a pledges life or safety at risk.

As far as the army thing goes, once again, unless you have experienced the boot camp first hand, you have no...insight, and therefor your opinion on this is rather flawed. Thus, your argument on this is rather week.

You bash hazing because of what you have heard, not what you have experienced.
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  #155  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:55 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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It just makes me laugh that you say that because I haven’t experienced it, I don’t understand. I understand plenty of what I haven’t experienced. And if you’re telling me that people ONLY learn through experience, then you’re sadly mistaken. Because I can tell you that to get stabbed is bad, I can tell you that if you jump out of an airplane, you will fall very quickly to the ground, and I can tell you that if you taunt a barracuda, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll bite your sorry ass. But I’ve never done any of those things.

You talk to me as if I have never heard a story about what other chapters do for hazing. I have heard first hand what some people do. And for some, running around campus, being covered in eggs, doing 500 push-ups, doing laundry for your big, and being otherwise belittled by the people who are supposed to be your “brothers”, etc., etc., etc., isn’t something that they’re willing to do to be part of an organization. And personally, I commend them for it.

Because I KNOW I wouldn’t want that done to me. And that’s not me being naïve because I haven’t experienced it. That’s not me not being able to handle it. That’s me making a personal choice based on the fact that I know those things suck. And I don’t have to prove myself to anyone by having them embarrass me and do things that may scar me emotionally.

I don’t haze anyone because I don’t pretend to know anyone. I don’t pretend to think that everyone is mentally healthy. Because THAT would be naïve. And I don’t pretend that nothing happens to anyone, ever.

Example: The mother of one of my sisters died last semester. This girl is a little more emotional than others in general, so when this happened, it took her a long time to even be able to come around the chapter because everyone was having a good time. SHE HAD A HARD TIME ENJOYING HERSELF because she almost thought she shouldn’t be happy. A lot of people do that when they lose a loved one, and if that happened to one of your pledges and you weren’t having fun, but instead were harassing him, I guarantee there’s a pretty good chance you could permanently push him away.

The only advice I can give you is not to assume that everyone is as “perfect” as you are. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and everyone has pasts that you know nothing about. So to assume that you are above those who don’t want to be humiliated is rather pathetic in my opinion.
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  #156  
Old 09-09-2008, 03:58 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored.
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  #157  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:03 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored.
Amen.

That viewpoint may very well be why his small town fraternity is in need of help.
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  #158  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:06 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored.

Yes, but I enjoy looking intelligent
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  #159  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:06 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post
Amen.

That viewpoint may very well be why his small town fraternity is in need of help.


And yes, I just found that. It was him. I even commented on that post to try and help him. haha
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  #160  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:10 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Yes, but I enjoy looking intelligent
Arguing with a brick wall doesn't make you look intelligent.
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  #161  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:14 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Hm... yea, yelling at brick walls would probably make me look crazy

Funny thing is, in the middle of me typing that last post, he sent me a PM begging me to respond to his post.

He begs for attention, says that I don't know that getting stabbed is bad because I haven't experienced it, asks for recruitment help in another thread because their chapter has 3 members, and then wonders why people tell him not to haze.

damn.
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  #162  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:28 PM
one800thekiller one800thekiller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
It just makes me laugh that you say that because I haven’t experienced it, I don’t understand. I understand plenty of what I haven’t experienced. And if you’re telling me that people ONLY learn through experience, then you’re sadly mistaken. Because I can tell you that to get stabbed is bad, I can tell you that if you jump out of an airplane, you will fall very quickly to the ground, and I can tell you that if you taunt a barracuda, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll bite your sorry ass. But I’ve never done any of those things.

You talk to me as if I have never heard a story about what other chapters do for hazing. I have heard first hand what some people do. And for some, running around campus, being covered in eggs, doing 500 push-ups, doing laundry for your big, and being otherwise belittled by the people who are supposed to be your “brothers”, etc., etc., etc., isn’t something that they’re willing to do to be part of an organization. And personally, I commend them for it.

Because I KNOW I wouldn’t want that done to me. And that’s not me being naïve because I haven’t experienced it. That’s not me not being able to handle it. That’s me making a personal choice based on the fact that I know those things suck. And I don’t have to prove myself to anyone by having them embarrass me and do things that may scar me emotionally.

I don’t haze anyone because I don’t pretend to know anyone. I don’t pretend to think that everyone is mentally healthy. Because THAT would be naïve. And I don’t pretend that nothing happens to anyone, ever.

Example: The mother of one of my sisters died last semester. This girl is a little more emotional than others in general, so when this happened, it took her a long time to even be able to come around the chapter because everyone was having a good time. SHE HAD A HARD TIME ENJOYING HERSELF because she almost thought she shouldn’t be happy. A lot of people do that when they lose a loved one, and if that happened to one of your pledges and you weren’t having fun, but instead were harassing him, I guarantee there’s a pretty good chance you could permanently push him away.

The only advice I can give you is not to assume that everyone is as “perfect” as you are. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and everyone has pasts that you know nothing about. So to assume that you are above those who don’t want to be humiliated is rather pathetic in my opinion.


AS i said, i'm not one to say that doing laundry, or pushups, or being covered with eggs serves a higher purpose, because it doesn't........at least not to my knowledge?

I am just stating that it is an assumption on your part that all hazing is bad.
That is all. I am not saying anything about learning simply by doing. I am saying that unless you have experienced something like hazing first hand, you are putting a certain amount of trust in someone else, in that everything they are telling you is true and accurate.

As far as not knowing a pledges past, and therefor they could be mentally unstable......we are a small enough organization that we get to know the potentials long before even the rush party.

In reference to your concern for pushing pledges away because of how we treat them, i agree.

In pledging it is a constant push-pull system

you pull them in, and then you push them away, and then you pull them in again..thats just how it happens

If a major issue has happened in a pledges life, i'm aware of it as soon as it happens, and i will deal with it appropriately.

That is what most people don't understand. Yes, there might be hazing in certain organizations, but as soon as a brother(or eve a pledge) is going through a tough time, EVERY MEMBER is right there with them, ready to help in ANY way possible. I do take care of my pledges, and I do take care of my brothers.

My fraternity isn't nearly as concerned with quantity as we are quality...
I would rather have 3 pledges make it through..and them be the ones that worked their asses of and put there heart and soul into the process..and their trust into the brotherhood than i would 15 people who half assed an easier less demanding process
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  #163  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:32 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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The whole point is you make it so hard for them, and you only have 3 people come through, in order to do... what?

To go to meetings, to participate in philanthropies and fundraisers, and then to... haze the next class.

There's just no point. And there's no point in arguing.

I give up.
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  #164  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:42 PM
one800thekiller one800thekiller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
The whole point is you make it so hard for them, and you only have 3 people come through, in order to do... what?

To go to meetings, to participate in philanthropies and fundraisers, and then to... haze the next class.

There's just no point. And there's no point in arguing.

I give up.


We make it hard because we want the best of the best....we have had so many people attempt and fail, and we like that.

We get as many people to pledge as we can, and the process weeds them out. Thats how it has been for many many years and that is how it will remain... regardless off what people want to think

Perhaps it is an elitist point of view on my part, but we are about so much more than that..we have a brotherly bond, our alumni still stop by, we are a family, we watch each others back, we have a small army behind us on ANYTHING we need done, all of my brothers, even the ones that i have yet to meet, would do anything for me at the drop of a hat.

your right there is no point in arguing and i apologize for even trying to defend hazing, because in todays day and age, greeks as they were once known, are a dying breed..and it took me to find this forum to realize it.


P.S.-please don't take my posts personally, regardless of what post or topic it is. I am a Political-Science major, and there is nothing more in this world I love more than a good argument.
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  #165  
Old 09-09-2008, 04:47 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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I was a poli sci major, too. I think I've just learned to back down sometimes. Because otherwise, my friends get mad at me for arguing my point til I'm blue in the face

^^ find it funny that I typed that and the smiley face that I wanted to use is blue
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