Cleaning house = hazing ???

[Kevin]

So by your own admission you interpret those rules to say that we may set out some required tasks that must be performed before initiation so long as they don't violate the hazing policy.

Some of ours include the candidates administrating homecoming (or greek week), setting up at least one party, raising money for their initiation and our new member program that includes history, leadership training, etc.. They also have to get involved in at least one other campus organization.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, this is not how we currently clean our house. I am just arguing that if this is the way we operated I don't see how you could call it hazing:

I'm still failing to see where if you wrote a list of things in a room that must be done each day for example...

Sweep floors
Dust light fixtures
Dust shelves
vacuum carpets
windex windows
dust furniture

I fail to see where that is hazing. So long as the chores are reasonable. What I'm saying is... if let's say brother Billy Joe decides to eat his McDonalds food in the living room... He then starts talking to someone, leaves and forgets about it...

Billy Joe is technically still responsible for cleaning that up. The new member that had that room would only pick that mess up if he wanted to... the rest of the things on the list must be done though.

This is how we currently run our house cleaning program... Except that we all participate. I still fail to see where it would be hazing though if just candidates do it.

I've looked and there is no clause that says "if you require a new member to do something, actives have to do it also".

I make my example to show that such a program can exist according to the letter of the law. If it's administered correctly it is not hazing.

[LPIDelta]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree and call it day.

[EM1843]

Part of this debate stems from the differences between fraternities and sororities. Lambda Chi, particularly, states no separation between brothers and AMs. That means in assigning chores too. That would make it hazing by LCA standards but I don't think that would be considered hazing in a legal case. Talk to you consultant from nat'ls if you have a question about it, but it seems fine to me.

[KEPike]

Even though this thread may die, I think there is alot to be learned from it.

Guys, even though we may not consider things hazing, and even if we adminster our pledge program according to all the rules set forth from the school and fraternity, there are still those even in the Greek system who could construe house cleaning, etc. as hazing.

I would say to those chapters who don't haze and have their pledges required or forced to do things, always remain aware that these tasks must erve a higher purpose, and thus conveyed to the pledges. If you are having house cleanings, then be sure to make the pledges aware that in doing so, your house will remain clean, and will hopefully present your house, greek system, school, and fraternity in a positive light. This way, the pledges will take pride in the appearance of the house and will be motivated on their own to complete their duties.

But what others are warning is that the house cleanings, mandatory sings, etc. can lead to hazing. Maybe a house cleaning is done with the intent of maintaining a positive image, but it may eventually turn into a situation where members force pledges to clean solely to make the house. I think what they are trying to say is that things can go south quickly. Therefore, be sure to always police your members and again always have a reason for doing anything in your pledge process.

Nevertheless, I think I've learned something from this thread, so carry on.

[doubleblue&gold]

House cleaning is not hazing, it's how it's administered. As long as everyone is required to participate, it's okay. Obviously there are lots of us that have small houses and small groups that require members for these tasks. Fortunately I lived in a house where we paid for a housekeeper and cook. Something to think about.....if you have someone needing cash, have your chapter or housing board pay them to clean the house----takes care of 2 problems with one solution!

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by Betarulz!


I do realize that the definition of hazing varies from GLO to GLO, but I did check Lambda Chi's website to see there definition and it was nearly identicle to that of Beta's, b/c that was the first thing that I thought of...maybe it is different for members of other organizations.

Then it's definitely hazing in my book. Especially if they earn POINTS (which I am assuming are required to "earn" or "qualify" for initiation)...that is separating the class from the actives, which can lead to more overt forms of hazing down the road.

[aephi alum]

How about this angle?

A fraternity at my school has two work weeks each year. Thoroughly vacuuming the house, cleaning the windows, thoroughly cleaning the bathrooms, dusting everything, etc.

The first work week is right before rush, and is done by all the brothers. No pledges participate because there aren't any.

The second work week is just before spring semester starts. This is done entirely by the brothers who joined the past fall. (They are initiated by this time.)

Is this hazing? Every member has to participate in one work week per year, and it's the same type of work - the only difference is the timing.