Less popular sororities

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I don't know if the straight up racism that EW is espousing is actually that common. Even the most traditional, conservative, old south chapter has members (and I actually think a majority of members) who would be disgusted by the assertion that because a group includes a minority member that the group isn't to be associated with socially.

But there are also individual members who may/do hold racist views, and because the non-racist members don't push their position and insist on showing good leadership, the racists are more influential than they ought to be.

I espoused no such racism as I am hardly racist. I have repeated this often, but it falls on deaf ears.

I think accused racist Ron Paul speaks correctly on racism when he says,

"Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity."

Sorry kids, you're looking for racists everywhere, but not one to be found here.

The funny thing is, because I have not espoused racism but yet some accuse me of it, it's more an assumption because I am Southern I am racist, which would be a terrible prejudice to be had.

I asked you if the sorority that pledged the minority woman from the wealthy background got shunned. You said "yes." The end.

Again, your reading comprehension is poor. I have said repeatedly that if a sorority with great tradition and great connections pledged a minority woman it would not be an issue that would cause them to fall off the edge towards losing their charter because they are so well founded with tradition and connections. When a sorority is previously shunned and then adds one more straw to the camels back, that's when it slides into depths. Please read before you speak instead of making accusations.

[pbear19]

EW, assuming you are for real, I think you are one of the worst, most dangerous kind of people out there. So completely lacking in self awareness it is frightening.

I have dear friends who live in Arkansas, and I spent a few very memorable years there. This whole sequence of posts makes me feel badly for them, that this might in any way reflect on the average Arkansan.

[shadokat]

Honestly, ASUADPi, I've watched this happen before to a very good chapter. They made quota at formal recruitment for literally like 14 years in a row! Then, at year 15, they missed quota by 2, and they were upset, but figured hey, we're only 2 short, it's not that big a deal, and plus, we got the girls we really wanted. In year 16, they missed quota by 2 again, and they also graduated a rather large new member class from 2 years previous. Double whammy...and again, they said it sucked to miss quota but they did get the girls they really wanted. They never COB'd to make up to quota, and slowly, they dropped under total. It continued on for about 3 or 4 more years, and eventually, many of the girls they really wanted went to other chapters, and their NM classes got smaller. They lost their desire to promote themselves as they once did, and things went downhill. Thankfully, they got a new chapter advisor (they didn't have one for awhile apparently), and she really showed them that you gotta work hard and stay strong to keep those high numbers and reputations that you had. They turned their ship around and are one of the best chapters on campus again, but they learned a valuable lesson. Every chapter can fall from grace, and honestly, nobody on their campus felt bad about it. They realized THEY were the ones who had to change.

Off on another tangent, I read a post that someone wrote about if PNMs realized that if they got a large enough group, they could turn a "worst" house around. And that happened at a state school in Pennsylvania. An entire floor of sophmores who were not greek all joined the same sorority and said, they stink right now, but they won't when we're done. They took it over basically, and while it sucked probably for the older members, that sorority is tops on campus now. It's all about how you see things.

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

Sometimes it makes me wonder how a chapter can be above total and not even a decade later they are considered "struggling" by nationals. I wonder what happened during those intervening years.

I also feel that other sororities are guilty of ruining a chapters reputation. All it takes is being childish and pissed at another sorority and "boom" the rumor starts spreading like wildfire and if that particular chapter is struggling it gets around. As if the PNM's don't "tent talk"

I mean lets face it, in reality I would guess that 75% of the rumors floating around about chapters are started by other chapters (sorority or fraternity). People talk crap, fact of life. And most people can't cop up to the fact of talking crap.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by pbear19

EW, assuming you are for real, I think you are one of the worst, most dangerous kind of people out there. So completely lacking in self awareness it is frightening.

Exactly how am I lacking in self-awareness?

I'm interested to hear since you can so awesomely tell from an online message board.

Who knows if I'm joking? Or dead serious? Or so apathetic? Or at work and bored? Or any other possibility. Who knows, perhaps I agree with everything said against me? Or perhaps I think y'all are idiots. Who knows.

I would suggest not trying to diagnose someone through a messageboard.

[Just interested]

Thanks, ShadoKat for redirecting this thread in a very classy manner.

[UGAalum94]

EW,

I may have missed something in your posts. I understood you to say that because this chapter pledged a minority member that no decent group would want to associate with them socially, and you seemed to say it a way that indicated that you thought that this was right and good. As if, of course, after they pledged the minority member, no good groups would deal with them. They got what they deserved for being so stupid as to pledge a minority. Maybe I read over the part where you expressed sadness at the injustice of social shunning based on the race of members.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Just interested

Thanks, ShadoKat for redirecting this thread in a very classy manner.

It didn't redirect the thread yet.

ETA: Maybe it did. *fingers crossed*

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Again, your reading comprehension is poor. Please read before you speak instead of making accusations.

This thread ended up here somehow. Do a better job at communicating your points next time. I'm not the only one who has asked for clarity when you go on these "southern" tangents.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

EW,

I may have missed something in your posts. I understood you to say that because this chapter pledged a minority member that no decent group would want to associate with them socially, and you seemed to say it a way that indicated that you thought that this was right and good. As if, of course, after they pledged the minority member, no good groups would deal with them. They got what they deserved for being so stupid as to pledge a minority. Maybe I read over the part where you expressed sadness at the injustice of social shunning based on the race of members.

Well they were not doing terribly well before hand, so initial shunning had nothing to do with a minority.

Given the position they were in at the time (doing poorly on campus with no traditions/connections) and knowing the attitude of the campus towards this sort of thing at the time, it was not a good choice to pick a minority. If one wants to look at reality and what it set off, then there's no way around it.

Top sororities can pledge a minority and everything be great because they rest on their tradition. A relatively new sorority (and struggling) cannot do the same. At the position they were in at the time, it was not a good idea but of course this is all in hindsight which is an important thing to consider.

The entire point of what I have been driving home repetitively is that it is about tradition and connections, which was what I said in my initial post. If they have the tradition and connections, a sorority can do whatever it likes with it's pledge classes and be successful (resting on it's laurels, essentially), regardless of the social attitudes in the area.

I don't have to express "sadness at the injustice" etc, because this is evident as well. It is my cousins sorority and I hate to see it fall off like it will because of poor decisions and certain social taboos. It was her only shot at a sorority because she was from out of state.

[DSTCHAOS]

For the record: Not choosing someone based on social class is bad for a number of reasons but typical because people look at background. I assume that people who target the "top tier" organizations will know that some of them have the "wealth" standard and will therefore choose not to rush those groups. I guess the sorority that got shunned for the nonwealthy member was also struggling before whereas a sorority that wasn't struggling would've been able to pull off attempting to diversify their chapter.

[gee_ess]

Holy cow, I don't know where to begin...

EW - I am a U of A grad and alum of a top tier sorority. And, although I am sure you thought you were speaking honestly and with firsthand knowledge, you are speaking without enough experience and knowledge of this campus' greek system to make any type of point regarding a weaker sorority without being offensive.

I believe I posted earlier with the point that stronger sororities can afford to make mistakes in rush and it rarely effects them negatively -not true for a weaker group. Yes, a few bad pledge classes can hurt them. But fraternities are not responsible for that.

Fraternity opinions hold very little sway with pledges signing bid cards. Yes, there is tent talk, but that becomes very secondary during the emotion of formal (southern style!) rush. At the end of the week, the pnm's just want a BID! Also, regarding frat's shunning sororities, rarely are functions single group. Most,if not all, are two sororities and two frats - which helps balance the equation somewhat. No frat opinion can take a house down. The system isn't set up that way.

Regarding the minority pledge - I assure you this had no bearing on their success or lack thereof of their house. Yes, in this traditional south,it may have been news...(few African American or Asian women go through rush at Arkansas) but not anything that would take a house down. Of the 7 groups on campus, this past fall, all but one made quota and this one was not a newer group. So, to make it perfectly clear, the newer groups are doing GREAT on campus. I am not sure what group you are referring to.

And last but not least, let's not let EW's posts turn anyone into saying something ugly about Arkansas just because he is offending you. That's just not nice...
Arkansas is a great campus and has a strong Greek system.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Well they were not doing terribly well before hand, so initial shunning had nothing to do with a minority.

Given the position they were in at the time (doing poorly on campus with no traditions/connections) and knowing the attitude of the campus towards this sort of thing at the time, it was not a good choice to pick a minority. If one wants to look at reality and what it set off, then there's no way around it.

Top sororities can pledge a minority and everything be great because they rest on their tradition. A relatively new sorority (and struggling) cannot do the same. At the position they were in at the time, it was not a good idea but of course this is all in hindsight which is an important thing to consider.

The entire point of what I have been driving home repetitively is that it is about tradition and connections, which was what I said in my initial post. If they have the tradition and connections, a sorority can do whatever it likes with it's pledge classes and be successful (resting on it's laurels, essentially), regardless of the social attitudes in the area.

I don't have to express "sadness at the injustice" etc, because this is evident as well. It is my cousins sorority and I hate to see it fall off like it will because of poor decisions and certain social taboos. It was her only shot at a sorority because she was from out of state.

If you care about not coming off as racist, I think you have to be more careful about how you present the circumstances.

I don't dispute for a minute that a new or struggling chapter faces a different level of risk if they innovate in any way. But when it comes to losing even more status for making a membership decision that is punished, for lack of a better word, for the race of the new member, either in whole or part (meaning maybe it's race, maybe it's half class), it's the system with the problem rather than the chapter.

It doesn't change the outcome for the chapter, but it should change how we think of the situation and it should, if you really are interested in racial justice, provoke a desire to change the system.

ETA: I'm not trying to get on some moral high horse with you. A couple of years ago, Macallen and I went a few rounds on this issue in one of the fraternity threads, and I don't really care about doing it again. It's just a tough situation. It requires that elite groups recognize that they have a greater responsibility than any other groups for the continued segregation of the system and, if you care about moral leadership, really requires that they step up and behave differently. Members of these groups don't necessarily want to. They want to have the same kind of effortless associations with other people like themselves that they've had for generations and since they pride themselves on being the most selective groups, they are particularly resentful of being pressed on membership decisions from the outside.

[SWTXBelle]

Speaking as an apparently race-less southern sorority alumna who is really interested in the op, may I suggest that we ignore any self-serving tangents and again address ourselves to the hows and whys of chapters that seem to be regarded as "lower tier", and what they can do about it?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Speaking as an apparently race-less southern sorority alumna who is really interested in the op, may I suggest that we ignore any self-serving tangents and again address ourselves to the hows and whys of chapters that seem to be regarded as "lower tier", and what they can do about it?

Sure. I'm game.

What do you think we haven't discussed that might be worth discussing?

ETA: Do you think that chapters regarded as "lower tier" or struggling don't show as well in recruitment sometimes because they are more concerned with practicality in the clothes they wear, for instance keeping the dress the same for members from year to year so the girls don't have to buy new outfits, and as a result seem dated and less fashionable?

I know this is ridiculously superficial, but please keep in mind my range of experience.

[SWTXBelle]

Let me throw this out there - what do you think is the most important component for a successful turn-around? Alumnae advisors, chapter officers, HQ involvement - what?