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  #16  
Old 04-15-2014, 01:21 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Not really clueless, I just don't accept your premises as being any more than artificial constructs.

That said, I'm from Oklahoma. I'm surrounded by Native people. They aren't discriminated against at all. In fact, they get free food, healthcare and even stipend checks from their enormously profitable operations which operate behind "sovereign" governments that don't compete on a level playing field with our other businesses.
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  #17  
Old 04-15-2014, 01:21 PM
pshsx1 pshsx1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
The Sioux isn't a race. It's a tribe or rather a collection of tribes with similar culture.

And it's not as if that was the only example I gave.

Where are the aggrieved Scandinavians?
But Native Americans are a distinctive group of people who, as clemsongirl perfectly stated, have faced hundreds of years of systematic discrimination, denial of opportunity, and cultural erasure.

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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Your constructs of race, ethnicity and culture are entirely artificial as is the amount of deference you think the rest of us should give them.

This isn't about good manners, this is about schools facing serious sanctions if they name their mascots after native Americans. There's a point where it has gone from asking that people be polite and respect each other to forcing your views on other through extortion.
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Not really clueless, I just don't accept your premises as being any more than artificial constructs.

That said, I'm from Oklahoma. I'm surrounded by Native people. They aren't discriminated against at all. In fact, they get free food, healthcare and even stipend checks from their enormously profitable operations which operate behind "sovereign" governments that don't compete on a level playing field with our other businesses.
Really.

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  #18  
Old 04-15-2014, 01:24 PM
pshsx1 pshsx1 is offline
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You know, you used the traditional argument of "I'm not racist--my best friend is black!" Doesn't work.
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  #19  
Old 04-15-2014, 01:31 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by pshsx1 View Post
But Native Americans are a distinctive group of people who, as clemsongirl perfectly stated, have faced hundreds of years of systematic discrimination, denial of opportunity, and cultural erasure.
That's hilarious. You probably don't know many native people, then. I'm in OKC. My grandfather was an honorary chieftan of the Sac and Fox tribe. We are awash in Indians and the only difference between them and me is a BIA card. Nearly 1:10 people in Oklahoma are American Indian.

Legally speaking, "Native American" really isn't even a racial categorization. It's a political one.
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Last edited by Kevin; 04-15-2014 at 01:35 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-15-2014, 01:38 PM
Cheerio Cheerio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Your constructs of race, ethnicity and culture are entirely artificial as is the amount of deference you think the rest of us should give them.

This isn't about good manners, this is about schools facing serious sanctions if they name their mascots after native Americans. There's a point where it has gone from asking that people be polite and respect each other to forcing your views on other through extortion.
Agree with your statement (in red).
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  #21  
Old 04-15-2014, 01:40 PM
clemsongirl clemsongirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
That's hilarious. You probably don't know many native people, then. I'm in OKC. My grandfather was an honorary chieftan of the Sac and Fox tribe. We are awash in Indians and the only difference between them and me is a BIA card. Nearly 1:10 people in Oklahoma are American Indian.

Legally speaking, "Native American" really isn't even a racial categorization. It's a political one.
There are so many Native Americans in Oklahoma in part because they were forcibly removed from their homelands and relocated there by the American government, or did you fall asleep in history class when they covered The Trail of Tears?

Racial categorizations aren't even truly biological, but sociological and society-based. Italians and Irish used to not be considered "white", but were gradually assimilated into the majority. Every racial categorization is a political one because race has no biological basis, but is assigned by the group with the majority of power in a society.
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  #22  
Old 04-15-2014, 02:06 PM
pshsx1 pshsx1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
That's hilarious. You probably don't know many native people, then. I'm in OKC. My grandfather was an honorary chieftan of the Sac and Fox tribe. We are awash in Indians and the only difference between them and me is a BIA card. Nearly 1:10 people in Oklahoma are American Indian.

Legally speaking, "Native American" really isn't even a racial categorization. It's a political one.
Congrats to Oklahoma. You obviously don't understand anything outside of white privilege. Congrats on missing the entire point of this thread.

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  #23  
Old 04-15-2014, 02:16 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Steelers =/= steelworkers. Steeler is a word that does not exist except as the name of the football team. Indian/Redskin/etc is. We also do not and never have used a human figure on helmets or uniforms. The closest we got was that awful Steely McBeam mascot from a few years ago, which was incredibly poorly received and quickly discontinued.
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Last edited by 33girl; 04-15-2014 at 02:19 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-15-2014, 02:50 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Privilege: when something isn't a problem because it isn't a problem for you.
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2014, 02:59 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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Back to the topic of the sorority -- I think the school was right to drop the mascot, and wrong to sanction the sorority for this banner. The change in mascot is now a fact. People should be allowed to discuss it. I agree that a university-sanctioned group should not be allowed to use an image or name that the university has dissociated itself from. But student groups can't even acknowledge the fact that a change occurred? I'm completely against Indian mascots, yet I still think this is misguided.
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  #26  
Old 04-15-2014, 03:14 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
...your premises....
I am not powerful enough to create my own constructs of race, ethnicity, and culture. Thanks for the compliment, though.
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2014, 03:38 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Legally speaking, "Native American" really isn't even a racial categorization. It's a political one.
All racial categorizations can be viewed as political categorizations. Thus is the nature of social construction (pun intended).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheerio View Post
Agree with your statement (in red).
My sincerest condolences to the schools/teams that are unable to use groups of people who have expressed discontent as a mascot. Next thing you know people will be told not to have racially, ethnically, and culturally themed parties.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2014, 05:08 PM
AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Wow! How did I miss this train wreck?
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2014, 05:21 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by clemsongirl View Post
There are so many Native Americans in Oklahoma in part because they were forcibly removed from their homelands and relocated there by the American government, or did you fall asleep in history class when they covered The Trail of Tears?
And not one person alive to day is still being injured by that. I can't even say there was anything wrong with it. It was the 19th century and then and prior to then, other countries conquered other countries and relocated populations. Looking back at my own genealogy, my various ancestors could claim aggrieved status on many occasions. We're hundreds of years removed from those actions though, so it's water under the bridge.

Quote:
Racial categorizations aren't even truly biological, but sociological and society-based. Italians and Irish used to not be considered "white", but were gradually assimilated into the majority. Every racial categorization is a political one because race has no biological basis, but is assigned by the group with the majority of power in a society.
And around here, Natives have for the most part been fully assimilated. We don't have reservations as such. We have some really wonky jurisdictional rules, but the "Indian land" stuff doesn't really work here.
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2014, 05:31 PM
Cheerio Cheerio is offline
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At the very least, the new 2015 school mascot will not be taking the name of or shape of a Crescent. Their new cheer will not be, "Our Crescents will ROLL over your team!"
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