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  #61  
Old 10-15-2003, 09:51 AM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beryana
Did you know that Martin Luther wanted to throw out most of the New AND OLD Testaments because they didn't follow with his views of Christianity? Did you know that there is NOTHING in the Bible to support Sola Scriptura or Sola Fidai (sorry, my Latin is VERY poor - I'm refering to the protestant teaching of Faith Alone).
Ummm, just so we don't get the bias thing going both ways, it's a pretty gross (and anti-Lutheran) overstatement to say that Luther wanted to "throw out" most of the New and Old Testaments. I'm aware of one book he had "issues" with -- James -- and there certainly may have been more, but I think most is really going way too far.

As for their being nothing in the Bible to support Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide (Sola Gratia is the remaing prong), I think it's fair to say that, assuming the idea of Faith Alone is properly understood and not mischaracterized because of anti-Lutheran or anti-Protestant bias, that portions of Scripture, the Letter to the Romans comes to mind, can be understood to support the idea. After all, even the Vatican and the World Lutheran Federation recently signed an agreement saying that they basically agree when it come to the idea of justification by faith, although they may talk about it in different ways.
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Last edited by MysticCat; 10-15-2003 at 09:53 AM.
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  #62  
Old 10-15-2003, 10:35 AM
Rio_Kohitsuji Rio_Kohitsuji is offline
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I had a feeling this thread would turn this way...all hijacked and all... Makes for good reading though...hehe
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  #63  
Old 10-15-2003, 09:01 PM
JoinerLxa JoinerLxa is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobraFCD
I'd be happy to give you a list of non-Biblical RomanCatholic doctrine instituted by man (read the Catholic Encyclopedia -it's where I got it from):

Infant baptism (circa 300 AD by RCC)
Prayers for the dead (implemented in 300 AD by the RCC)
Worship of saints (implemented in 375 AD by RCC)
Mass instituted (394 AD)
Worship of Mary (431 AD)
Priests dressing differently from laymen (500 AD)
Extreme unction (last rites) (526 AD)
Doctrine of purgatory (593 AD)
Prayers conducted to Mary (600 AD)
Worship of images and relics (786 AD)
Celibacy of Priests (1079 AD)
Rosary (1090 AD)
Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible (1545 AD)
Infallibility of the Pope declared (1870 AD)
Mary proclaimed the "Mother of the Church" (1965 AD)
Every one of these is incorrect, misleading, or a
misunderstanding. Where's
my proof? I could write it here, but it would be a book.
Besides, the refutation or explanation of all of these can be
found at
www.catholic.com
so there's no need to do it here!

By the way, here's some common "bible church" practices
which aren't biblical:

- the word "Trinity", or its definition.
- observance of the sabbath on Sunday
- Sunday School (invented in the 1800s)
- use of "official" Sunday School books issued by the
"official" denominational Sunday School Board and/or
Pastor Know-it-All
- Daily/Personal Devotional guides/diaries
- choir practice
- youth group activities
- youth and music ministers
- regular wednesday night prayer services
- church buildings with swimming pools (baptismals) inside
- having to be "voted in" to be baptised/become member
(hey, at least this relates to a "greek" discussion...you
have to get a "bid" to join some churches, like Baptists!)
- pastor elected by congregation
- deacon's council "running the church"
- using grape juice instead of wine for communion
- Conventions/General Assemblies/Synods
- Mission board
- Seminary (preacher's school)

and I could go on and on. Don't know what year some of
these were "invented by man," but they can't be found in the
Bible! So since these practices can't be found in the bible,
does that mean any church which has any of the above
is "unbiblical"?? (I realize some churches may have some,
and not others).

Do I mean that all of the above are 'wrong' or unchristian?
No, I hold to many of the above myself. I'm just pointing out
that they are UNBIBLICAL (not mentioned in the Bible)
INVENTIONS OF MAN.

Now, to show my fairness, I'll "refute" one of my own
accusations...lets take an easy one:

SUNDAY SCHOOL:
Is Sunday School mentioned in the Bible: NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT

So is Sunday School an unbiblical invention of man? NOT REALLY

Why? What is "Sunday School?" - "a gathering of Christians to
study the scriptures"

Is that mentioned in the Bible? YES, OF COURSE.

Ah, so the practice of Sunday School (scripture study) is in the
Bible, its just is not called "Sunday School!" - CORRECT!

Now let's apply that same logic to some "Catholic Inventions"
again, lets take an easy one:

EXTREME UNCTION:
Is Extreme Unction mentioned in the Bible: NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT

So is Extreme Unction an unbiblical invention of man? NOT REALLY

Why? What is "Extreme Unction?" - a ritual whereby a priest of
the church anoints and prays over a very sick individual, including
forgiveness of sin.

Is that mentioned in the Bible? YES (New Testament even!)

James 5:14-15: "Is anyone among you sick? He should summon
the presbyters (elders/priests) of the church, and they should
pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord,
and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord
will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be
forgiven"
(note who is doing the praying: the elders/priests/presbyters,
not the sick person, though if he's conscious, he' probably
praying too!)

Ah, so the practice of "extreme unction" is mentioned in the
Bible, its just not called "extreme unction" - CORRECT!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Last edited by JoinerLxa; 10-15-2003 at 11:09 PM.
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  #64  
Old 10-15-2003, 09:58 PM
Beryana Beryana is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MysticCat81
Ummm, just so we don't get the bias thing going both ways, it's a pretty gross (and anti-Lutheran) overstatement to say that Luther wanted to "throw out" most of the New and Old Testaments. I'm aware of one book he had "issues" with -- James -- and there certainly may have been more, but I think most is really going way too far.
Actually most is accurate and not anti-Lutheran. He did in fact want to throw out the majority of the old and new testaments books for various reasons but his followers were rather appalled by this. I can find you the exact information if you would like, but it will take me a few days to find the exact source again.

With regards to faith alone, I probably have not studied it as much as I could have at this point in time and am basing my information off my experiences with a few protestant denominations and being told that I JUST need to accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and I'm saved (nothing about God's grace, mercy, actually leading a good life, etc).

Sarah
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  #65  
Old 10-15-2003, 11:36 PM
Munchkin03 Munchkin03 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobraFCD
Dec. 25 is the birthday of the Sun God Ra. Constantine combined the celebration of Ra with the celebration of birth of Christ.
Uh, no. Like adduncan said earlier, Ra is an Egyptian deity. December 25th is actually the feast day of Mithras (Mithraism was an early cult in Rome). Many of the churches in Rome are built over mithraeums. It is an influential thing to Christianity in general--not just Catholicism.

You talk about all this research that you've done, but then so much of it is full of fallacies and holes to make it look like a slice of Swiss cheese. It's obvious that you haven't done pure historical research, as evidenced by the quoting of Jack Chick tracts (of all things!).
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  #66  
Old 10-15-2003, 11:57 PM
BobraFCD BobraFCD is offline
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Yes Ra is an Egypitan entity. And according to first century historian Josephus, that while Egyptians called him Ra, people in other parts of the world referred to him as Nimrod, Baal and others, depending on what region you lived. So uh, why don't YOU check your facts. It's funny that of the 50+ books I've read all support each other and no one has given me non-Catholic resources to support their theories.

And for the record, I did not quote Jack Chick, which shows you don't read well either. I said that a series of books by a former Jesuit Priest was available for purchase and one of the places you can get them was at Chick.com. I don't even know who Jack Chick is.

If you're going to jump into a conversation, please read carefully what was actually said.

Quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin03


Uh, no. Like adduncan said earlier, Ra is an Egyptian deity. December 25th is actually the feast day of Mithras (Mithraism was an early cult in Rome). Many of the churches in Rome are built over mithraeums. It is an influential thing to Christianity in general--not just Catholicism.

You talk about all this research that you've done, but then so much of it is full of fallacies and holes to make it look like a slice of Swiss cheese. It's obvious that you haven't done pure historical research, as evidenced by the quoting of Jack Chick tracts (of all things!).
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  #67  
Old 10-16-2003, 12:09 AM
Munchkin03 Munchkin03 is offline
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Oh, I'm reading.

You're just looking worse and worse now. If I were you, I'd quit while I was ahead. Who cares how many books you read if they all have a bias? I don't think anyone cares how many you've read about any subject--you said something you probably should have thought about, and now you're digging yourself into a hole.

Also, maybe you should know who someone is before you reference their "work" or a website. Jack Chick is the creator of that tract on the Jesuit priest.

Okay, here's a non-Catholic source for a basic history of the circumstances leading up to the creating of the RC. Richard Krautheimer's A History of Rome.

Let me know how you enjoy it. It might be a little difficult for you.
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  #68  
Old 10-16-2003, 12:24 AM
BobraFCD BobraFCD is offline
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A. I've read the book you mentioned, History of Rome and

B. the Alberto Series is not a tract--it's an autobiographical book series written by former Jesuit Priest Dr. Alberto Riveria. Jack Chick was not the author.

So before you say I am looking foolish, I suggest you (again) check your facts. For the record, the biggest volume of work where I got my research was from the Catholic Encyclopedia and from interviews of the priest at the Chicago Archdiocese who agreed with the research. I stand by my research as do several theologians who have read it.

Furthermore, the original question asked by other members was why some people do not believe Catholicism is Christian. I answered the question. I did not say that I shared that opinion and I also said that all churches fall short of Biblical accuracy.

If you'd like to continue this conversation, first read all the books I've listed since I've read your one source and then follow up in a PM because I will not dignify anymore of your unfounded accusations and personal attacks in a public forum.

Quote:
Originally posted by Munchkin03
Oh, I'm reading.

You're just looking worse and worse now. If I were you, I'd quit while I was ahead. Who cares how many books you read if they all have a bias? I don't think anyone cares how many you've read about any subject--you said something you probably should have thought about, and now you're digging yourself into a hole.

Also, maybe you should know who someone is before you reference their "work" or a website. Jack Chick is the creator of that tract on the Jesuit priest.

Okay, here's a non-Catholic source for a basic history of the circumstances leading up to the creating of the RC. Richard Krautheimer's A History of Rome.

Let me know how you enjoy it. It might be a little difficult for you.

Last edited by BobraFCD; 10-16-2003 at 12:39 AM.
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  #69  
Old 10-16-2003, 12:43 AM
adduncan adduncan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobraFCD

For the record, the biggest volume of work where I got my research was from the Catholic Encyclopedia
I'm calling BS on this.

If you had actually read the Catholic Encyclopedia (all 11K + articles) you would have caught your mistake on the December 25 debacle. The link I posted was to the online version of that reference.

You'd also have better background in YOUR "unfounded accusations". There is a lot of detailed background in the Cath. Ency and you managed to miss it.

For all we know, you're making up the review by "theologians" and anyone from the Chicago Archdiocese. No one worth the ink on their theology degree would back up the numerology-in-the-Bible-predicted-20th-century-history line either.
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  #70  
Old 10-16-2003, 02:52 AM
BobraFCD BobraFCD is offline
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People who do research accurately look for consistency in historical documentation. Yes the Catholic Encyclopedia does debate the Dec. 25 issue, but it's the only source that does and I would expect it to. (OF COURSE THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA WILL DEFEND CATHOLICISM--DUH)

It seems reasonable that if the Catholic's perspective on the issues I researched were factual, there would be other non-partisan documents to verify, but I couldn't find any. (Not to say there aren't any--but I couldn't find any written by non-partisan authors)

Even you must admit that the Catholic Encyclopedia has some bias. It was written by, for and target to Catholics. That's why it was used heavily as a reference to understand the Catholic perspective.

On the other hand, the majority of the other research documents all confirmed the Dec. 25 issue as I wrote.

You don't get to call BS until you put up some non-Catholic (or non-religious for that matter) historical documentation that supports the Catholic perspective, and read the sources I listed for yourself. (if you want the complete list, I'd be more than happy to give them to you, which includes all 66 books of the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek)

Works such as Josephus, A survey of Israel's History, Jesus in the Feast of Israel were all penned by authors of various centuries. None of the authors had an anti-Catholic agenda, they just recorded history and quoted/interpreted the Bible.

As I said, I stand by my research but it really doesn't matter, because you are going to believe what you want. So we can agree to disagree respectfully on how history was recorded and scripture interpretations, or we can take this ridiculous bantering and ongoing debate to a PM, and spare everyone else the drama.

Unless you are willing to read the sources I listed in fairness, my only conclusion is that this ongoing debate is about the desire to have the last word. So if that makes you feel better, go for it--have the last word. I have a husband, job, business, home, kids, ministry, and community service projects that need my attention. Enough is enough already.

Oh, and I'd give you the names of the Chicago Archdioces priests who I interviewed, but they could experience retaliation for privately agreeing with my research . It isn't worth putting their careers in jeopardy over a stupid Greek Chat room debate. And I won't compromise my journalistic professional standards to appease anyone, so go ahead and think what you want. I gave my word of confidentiality to them and I intend to keep it.

I won't be checking into this thread anymore because this is ridiculous! My PM mailbox is open for further debate once you've read the sources I listed. Otherwise, the horse is dead and I don't intend to keep beating it.







Quote:
Originally posted by adduncan
I'm calling BS on this.

If you had actually read the Catholic Encyclopedia (all 11K + articles) you would have caught your mistake on the December 25 debacle. The link I posted was to the online version of that reference.

You'd also have better background in YOUR "unfounded accusations". There is a lot of detailed background in the Cath. Ency and you managed to miss it.

For all we know, you're making up the review by "theologians" and anyone from the Chicago Archdiocese. No one worth the ink on their theology degree would back up the numerology-in-the-Bible-predicted-20th-century-history line either.

Last edited by BobraFCD; 10-16-2003 at 03:09 AM.
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  #71  
Old 10-16-2003, 07:30 AM
kddani kddani is offline
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this is the second time you said you won't be checking the thread anymore..... my money is that you'll be back again. don't say you're leaving unless you really are!
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  #72  
Old 10-16-2003, 07:49 AM
kddani kddani is offline
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Other basic thoughts now that i've had a shower to wake me up:

* there's a right way and a wrong way to argue. Being high and mighty and I-couldn't-possibly-be-wrong isn't the right way. If the attitude was checked at the door, perhaps this could've been a better discussion.

* talking isht on another person's religion is wrong. I'm Catholic, but I'd probably feel the same way about this no matter what religions were involved.

* Last time I checked, we live in the United States of America. We're free to practice any religion we please. There's that whole freedom of religion thing..... perhaps you should read this little thing called the Bill of Rights. It's much shorter and much easier reading than some of these books y'all are Citing, I promise you that.

* WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S RIGHT OR WHO'S WRONG- we never will. Not until the day that we die will we know the truth. Read all the books you want, frame them however you want to fit your argument. No one's argument holds a bit of weight b/c this is one area that the human population just doesn't know, and isn't every going to.
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  #73  
Old 10-16-2003, 08:41 AM
Txsurfinwaves Txsurfinwaves is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobraFCD

If you'd like to continue this conversation, first read all the books I've listed since I've read your one source and then follow up in a PM because I will not dignify anymore of your unfounded accusations and personal attacks in a public forum. [/B]

Aren't you, though,and maybe not intentionally, but in some way, attacking Catholics?

You say you talk to priests and look up all this research on the Catholic Church. How did this turn into a thread about the Catholic Church when it started out about Christian orgs? It started because you made a personal attack on all the Catholics in here and on pretty much everyone- just like dani said- id be mad if it was any religion.

Also, 20 bucks says you looked up titles of books and put them as your "sources".

You also say all these things in your life need your attention. Then why do you keep coming back? We told you earlier to take it to the PM.

Also, the bible can be interpreted into so many different ways- its very broad and thats why we have so many religons. You need to learn to respect others and keep this thread on topic. You might have tried to defend my religion, but you came off as very Anti-Catholic towards the end.

sorry if this was rude to anyone. Its early, i have a poli sci test, and ive been reading this thread and getting pissed off. not good for a cuban at 7 15 in the morning.
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  #74  
Old 10-16-2003, 10:13 AM
Txsurfinwaves Txsurfinwaves is offline
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*thinks to herself* I hope this doesnt turn into a racial thread now because I said cuban.
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  #75  
Old 10-16-2003, 12:04 PM
lionlove lionlove is offline
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To get waaaaaaaaaaay back on topic....

At my campus there are two christian orgs. One is more laid back and many members are greek. The other one is more strict and doesn't have many greek members but there's no hostility at all.
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