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  #1  
Old 09-09-2002, 03:19 PM
UF_PikePC98 UF_PikePC98 is offline
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Was 9/11 a success???

I debated with a friend on whether or not 9/11 was a victory for the terrorists or not. He argued that it wasn't and that America has succeeded in it's war on those responsible for the attacks.


My argue was this, 9/11 can be seen either as a victory or a failure. A success in the sense that they spent roughly around 300,000$ total for the expenses of those who carried out the evil deed. In turn, they caused 700,000,000,000$ in damages that stemmed from those attacks, whether it is actual structure damage, to the stock market downfall, to air lines claiming being bankrupt as well as military operations having to be carried out. The falling economy also gave way to giant corporations folding, thus the scandals coming to light. Had the conomy not have fallen so drastically and the attacks strike fear into the economics america, I don't think certain scandals would have surfaced, there would not have been any reason for the companies to fold. One of their goals was to hurt our economy, I'd say they did. Keep in mind, I do understand that many of the giant corporations are dealing with the left overs of the golden 90's in corporate america.

9/11 was a failure in the sense that it did not tear america apart. It somewhat forged a bond between all americans inorder to protect what many believe to be the symbol of a free world.

My take is this, we have not succeeded in finding/capturing Osama Bin Laden or Al Queda. Yes we have capture/killed a FEW of Al-Queda's leaders. But all we really did was topple yet another government and bring western ideology into a middle eastern nation. I realize it is like finding a needle in a hay stack when looking for specific individuals. But we can't even stop Saddam hussein from building weapons of mass destruction. Now that leads into a different subject.

I say we do this, Hold off on the hunt for international terrorsits. Go ahead with the invasion of Iraq. Form some sort of an agreement between Britian and france so that they go ahead with us and invade iraq as well. Once iraq has succombed begin some sort of Campaign stating that there are terrorists in Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lybia and Lebanon, and then begin a massive military campaign. Invite the russians to join in as well and reclaim their lost territories in the south as well as Turkey. Once military success has been achieved, NATO countries will then control 90% of the worlds oil supply. We can do what we want with the peoples of the conquered nations. Kill the trouble makers (terrorists, rebels, religious radicals, Mullahs). After doing this, the people will begin to be irritated at what we have done if they aren't already. To win the publics approval we then slash petrol prices to the consumer down by half and sell the surpluss at some resonable, yet high, rate to the rest of the world. We then reduce taxes by 1/2 as well since we now have control of the ultimate gold mine, thus making money that can take the place of taxes for the government. After public approval has been won, begin a massive worldwide manhunt, with merccanaries leading the way, for those we have not dealt with from events from 9/11 and the like. Economic life will then be like that of the 50's and 60's.......I'm sure most americans would love to see the days where a very nice car would cost you less than 10,000$.



What do some of you think? Was 9/11 a success or failure? What would you do if in power?
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2002, 03:33 PM
sororitygirl2 sororitygirl2 is offline
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To "them" (the terrorists) it is a success... to us, or me anyway, it was a failure.
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  #3  
Old 09-09-2002, 04:05 PM
KappaKittyCat KappaKittyCat is offline
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My opinion is a rather unpopular one, but I'm not shy.

To put it simply, the terrorists won.

Historically, left- and right-wing terror involve very different acts. Left-wing terror focuses on the elimination of key figures, with the goal of upsetting their opponant's base of power and control. The most famous example of this is the abduction and assassination of Italy's Christian Democratic Party leader Aldo Moro by the Red Brigades in the spring of 1978. (Don't be deceived by the name; the PDC is on the right side of the Italian political spectrum.) The PDC was crippled for quite a while by Moro's death.

Contrast this with the Terza Posizione's bombing of the Bologna rail station in August of 1980. The goal of right-wing terror is to disrupt people's faith in their government's abillity to protect them. The Terza Posizione figured that the Italians would look at the Bologna rail bombing and think, "We need to increase governmental control in order to stay safe." The central government becomes more powerful and regulations are put in place that enhance safety and reduce liberty.

The al Qaeda terrorists' actions have caused our government to implement limitations of our Constitutional liberties in the name of freedom. Think of the ads in Minority Report. "That which keeps us safe keeps us free." But PreCrime did nothing but eliminate freedoms in the name of public security. In the end it failed for that reason.

I think that if the United States government is going to go in and knock out totalitarian regimes, it needs to be prepared to engage in a fair amount of nation-building. You can't just eliminate one government and not leave anything in place. What happened when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan and left nothing behind? The Taliban moved in. Nature abhors a vaccuum. If the U.S. government does not step up and take responsibility, something else will fill it, and then it will have no right to bitch about the ensuing consequences.

In other news, my personal theory is that the U.S. is allowing Usama bin Laden to escape. His flight into other countries can be used as an excuse to get in there and clean house. This is an unprecedented opportunity.

I came home from a semester in Italy to find a country plastered with red, white, and blue. All this shallow patriotism makes me ill. Americans can talk the talk just fine, but when it comes to walking the walk, most of us stumble.
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  #4  
Old 09-09-2002, 04:37 PM
FHwku FHwku is offline
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peace in the middle east

i'm tired of it all.

Commercialized patriotism. I don't want something I care about, something that has substance, to be trendy.

The because-of-9/11 factor. I'm tired of people relating EVERYTHING to that day. e.g. on the local news, when being interviewed about a 10% increase in ticket sales to Tennessee's state fair, Random-Guy said, "I think it's because since 9/11, blah blah."

I'm tired of the Middle-East. tired of trying to establish a multi-ethnic gov't in Afghanistan. Kabul never looked like so cool a city, anyway. that's like trying to solve the conflict between the Jews and the Palestians.
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  #5  
Old 09-09-2002, 09:00 PM
UF_PikePC98 UF_PikePC98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by KappaKittyCat
My opinion is a rather unpopular one, but I'm not shy.

To put it simply, the terrorists won.

Historically, left- and right-wing terror involve very different acts. Left-wing terror focuses on the elimination of key figures, with the goal of upsetting their opponant's base of power and control. The most famous example of this is the abduction and assassination of Italy's Christian Democratic Party leader Aldo Moro by the Red Brigades in the spring of 1978. (Don't be deceived by the name; the PDC is on the right side of the Italian political spectrum.) The PDC was crippled for quite a while by Moro's death.

Contrast this with the Terza Posizione's bombing of the Bologna rail station in August of 1980. The goal of right-wing terror is to disrupt people's faith in their government's abillity to protect them. The Terza Posizione figured that the Italians would look at the Bologna rail bombing and think, "We need to increase governmental control in order to stay safe." The central government becomes more powerful and regulations are put in place that enhance safety and reduce liberty.

The al Qaeda terrorists' actions have caused our government to implement limitations of our Constitutional liberties in the name of freedom. Think of the ads in Minority Report. "That which keeps us safe keeps us free." But PreCrime did nothing but eliminate freedoms in the name of public security. In the end it failed for that reason.

I think that if the United States government is going to go in and knock out totalitarian regimes, it needs to be prepared to engage in a fair amount of nation-building. You can't just eliminate one government and not leave anything in place. What happened when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan and left nothing behind? The Taliban moved in. Nature abhors a vaccuum. If the U.S. government does not step up and take responsibility, something else will fill it, and then it will have no right to bitch about the ensuing consequences.

In other news, my personal theory is that the U.S. is allowing Usama bin Laden to escape. His flight into other countries can be used as an excuse to get in there and clean house. This is an unprecedented opportunity.

I came home from a semester in Italy to find a country plastered with red, white, and blue. All this shallow patriotism makes me ill. Americans can talk the talk just fine, but when it comes to walking the walk, most of us stumble.




You know, I'm normally right on just about everything......So I'm making yet another guess that seems accurate.....Are you a History Major?
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  #6  
Old 09-09-2002, 11:09 PM
KappaKittyCat KappaKittyCat is offline
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I am currently pursuing a Bachelor of Arts in history, among other things.
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  #7  
Old 09-10-2002, 12:15 AM
UF_PikePC98 UF_PikePC98 is offline
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Hey, check your PM box. I replied back, again.
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  #8  
Old 09-10-2002, 12:17 AM
Hootie Hootie is offline
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Re: peace in the middle east

Quote:
Originally posted by FHwku
i'm tired of it all.

Commercialized patriotism. I don't want something I care about, something that has substance, to be trendy.
Maybe to some, patriotism isn't trendy...it (911) just rekindled it. Or what about the veterans (like my grandfather) who have never given up on their patriotism?

Trendy mean something goes out of style...has patriotism ever FULLY gone out of style?

Hootie
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  #9  
Old 09-10-2002, 12:51 AM
KillarneyRose KillarneyRose is offline
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I understand what KappaKittyCat is saying about trendy patriotism. I don't care for it either. I love to see the stars and stripes flying in front of someone's house or on a public building, but I hate seeing the Flag used on clothing, furniture, to sell a product, attached to someone's car antenna, etc. And all the stars and stripes bikinis I saw this summer, most of which could have used a few more states worth of material!

I love my country, I've loved my country since before it was "cool" to do so, but I don't have any stickers on my car that read "United We Stand" or "We Will Remember" or anything of that ilk. As a dear friend of mine said shortly after the tragedy, "I don't need to show my love of country with an American flag bumper sticker. The Department of Defense sticker on my windshield speaks for itself."

PS KappaKittyCat, I don't agree with the overwhelming majority of your initial post, but I have to commend you on it nonetheless. It was exceedingly well-written and well thought-out and I really enjoyed reading it!
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2002, 12:53 AM
KappaKittyCat KappaKittyCat is offline
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Thank you, KillarneyRose.
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  #11  
Old 09-10-2002, 01:59 AM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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I think that if you take a moment to remove any personal feelings on the situation, you will see that for the perpetrators this was a near-complete tactical success.

First off - 75% of the intended targets were hit. This is a very good level of success for most military operations, especially one of this magnitude.

Second, the terrorists had no intention of toppling the two towers - that was an unexpected bit of "luck" from their end, as most thought the World Trade Center towers would withstand a hit from a plane (although they weren't designed with the particular types of planes used in mind) even up to the moment they began to fall.

If nothing else, the amount of publicity garnered could be considered a success from their end - the al-Queda terrorist coalition became a household name, practically overnight, and practically worldwide. I can go into the benefits of this in detail later if necessary, but it should be obvious that this could lead to increased monetary aid from sympathetic regimes, increased loyalty from a manpower standpoint, etc.

The monetary damages etc, as pointed out by others, tend to point toward at least a short-term impact on world (and specifically US) economic health - another benefit to the terrorists, who feel disruption to be a positive no matter what (overgeneralization, but see KappaKittyCat's post for explaination in detail).

Now - the true success of any military operation is determined, of course, over the long haul. Here may be where the terrorists encounter difficulties, as drawing the increased attention that they have may ultimately lead to a considerable amount of bad things for the al-Queda network; however, I don't think that the 'negatives' for the terrorists have outweighed the 'positives' mentioned earlier. Toppling the Taliban seemed a great moral and tactical victory for the US, but it seems that this isn't the mortal blow the public was lead to believe it would be for the network of terrorists - and actually, KKC, your thought process makes sense (although it would essentially be suicide for the gov't to admit to it).

Until it can be pointed out that the particular events of the terrorist actions on the Pentagon and World Trade Center led to more detriment for than good for the causes promoted, they have to be considered a success.

That's one of the worst parts of the whole thing - actually, the worst has to be using "911" over 400 times each commercial break, and every single level of life having to do something to commemorate the bombings on last Sept. 11. Seems ridiculous and patronizing to me, but hey, all in the name of some "patriotism" that we'll forget about until the next time this happens.
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Old 09-10-2002, 03:15 AM
Peaches-n-Cream Peaches-n-Cream is offline
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As a New Yorker, I don't think that this patriotism is trendy or shallow. I think that it is a healthy reaction to a tragedy, the depth and breadth of which most of us have never seen and hopefully will never see again. It is healthier than xenophobia and hatred or violence against Islamic or Arabic people. I prefer to see people focus their energy in positive patriotism. If that patriotism manifests itself in people wearing the flag on their clothes or cars or in their windows, good for them. It isn't hurting anyone. I would rather seeing flags flying that hear people say life is back to normal. Especially when the people saying that are hundreds of miles from where the attacks took place and knew no one who was murdered or injured.
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Old 09-10-2002, 12:03 PM
KappaKittyCat KappaKittyCat is offline
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Cream,

I understand that New Yorkers will have an entirely different perspective on the September 11th situation. Each and every one of you was personally impacted. I can only imagine what it feels like to look out your window and see such a big piece of your skyline missing, to glance at pictures of those whom you will never see living again, to realize that we Americans are as vulnerable as anyone else to attacks of this magnitude.

I was fortunate enough not to have lost anyone I love in the attacks. I was fortunate enough to have been in Europe when the drama unfolded. I was shielded from a lot of the emotional aftermath, and that gave way to my study of the situation from a cooler, calmer vantage point. I tend to look at things in terms of broad geopolitical impact. As an historian, I need to be able to separate my gut emotional reaction from the reasoning that must take place in my brain.

I do not suggest xenophobia as an alternative to patriotism. I am also in no way challenging the depth of the patriotism expressed by you or any of your fellow New Yorkers. I know that I cannot comprehend the things you have seen or felt. Each person needs to grieve in his own way, and I do not question that.

I'm simply acknowledging the fact that an understanding of the source of New Yorkers' need for patriotism has not accompanied the patriotism itself as the spirit has drifted west. I returned to the Midwest to find it looking as if a bunch of intoxicated high schoolers had gone on a star-spangled toilet-papering adventure during Homecoming week. Lee Greenwood echos through the corridors and drunk people weep. At the request of the administration under which I taught, I led my students in chorus after chorus of "God Bless America," while at the same time factions on the West Coast battled to remove those very same connotations from the Pledge of Allegiance. The American flag is now used to sell everything from books to bikinis to beer, and America excuses, no, encourages this. It seems that around my part of town, overt commercialism is synonymous with patriotism. It is, after all, the American Dream.

When I am abroad, I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the government of my own country. I make up for lost time when I come home.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

I stand proudly behind my country when I am representing her overseas. I defended my nationality and my government publicly during my time abroad. To me, it's the old field trip principle: "Now, boys and girls, remember that we are representing the school while we're at the museum, so everybody be on his best behaviour." It goes along the lines of not wearing one's letters on a pub crawl (something which I saw all over the place in Italy, and it made me sick). I am an American and I have to live with the consequences of my country's actions wherever I go. But for the same reason that we do not air petty intra-chapter disagreements during recruitment parties, I do not complain about my government when I am in front of those who might not understand that my complaining comes from a deep love of America and a desire to make her the best she can be. In my opinion, the best part about being an American is that we have the intrinsic right, and some would say the duty, to criticize our government as loudly and as publicly as we want.

I know this has gotten a little off the subject, and I apologize for that. I just wanted to make it clear what I meant by "shallow patriotism." In my mind, shallow patriotism is the along the lines of a woman's joining a GLO just to wear the letters. Most people have no idea of the deep signifcance behind them. I do, and I am proud to display them. I do so with respect and honour and dignity.

PM me if you'd like to discuss this more. You seem a fabulous and intelligent woman, and I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Respectfully,
KKC
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Last edited by KappaKittyCat; 09-10-2002 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 09-11-2002, 03:58 AM
DigitalAngel126 DigitalAngel126 is offline
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"Even from nightmares, a dream is born."

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Old 09-11-2002, 07:23 AM
moe.ron moe.ron is offline
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Where is the Dissent?

Really Good Article

Anyway, as much as people would like to believe that the would changed after 9/11, nothing has changed. Instead, 9/11 has been used by everybody and it does nothing for the memory of the dead. A case point, Bush used 9/11 to legitimize many things, such as an attack on Iraq.

Another case of point of how 9/11 is being exploited. Using September 11 as a segue, Jim Robinson, an assistant director of the United Steelworkers, said: “This should be a reminder to people that steel is a critical industry for the United States, both strategically and economically. Driving steel out of business economically has the same impact as physical bombings.” The same impact?! Robinson’s comment is despicable. He was talking about, at that time, the recent rise in tariff on steals.

The best way to memorilize those that dies is for us to go and demand that governments all over the world start taking into an account of how ordinary people feel.
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Last edited by moe.ron; 09-11-2002 at 07:35 AM.
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