Does a shorter associate program lead to more drop-outs?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The thing is, nothing says this has to be done before initiation. I think it would be great if the older girls planned "coke dates" throughout the first semester or year or whatever. That would help to cut down on the "I just initiated and don't feel connected" that we see so often.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it has less to do with the actual length of the pledge period, and more to do with the way you pledge, initiate, and then....nothing...In housed chapters, you generally don't move in until the following year, and in unhoused chapters, you may not start to hold offices and stuff until later. I think a short pledge program is fine (if it really does cut down on hazing), but then it needs to be followed up with a new initiate program or something.

We had a program called KROP - Keep Rushing Our Pledges (I guess now it would be Keep Recruiting Our Pearls) that addressed these concerns.

I think that kind of disconnectedness is a lot worse in chapters where formal rush, homecoming and Greek week are all in the same semester. We had 2 rushes a year so the newest girls were doing it right away, plus they had (depending on when they initiated) either homecoming or Greek week to look forward to. I mean what do you do in spring at Ole Miss? Go on spring break?

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

That's oversimplifying, but I think we have just as much trouble losing seniors as New-I's. Seniors may not leave, but they pay their dues and only show up to totally mandatory events.

I know we've talked about this before, and I think that sometimes the programs that are supposed to help seniors "look to the future" are more likely making them feel like they're being pushed out of the chapter.

[DubaiSis]

I think there's something to feeling like you've "earned it" and I think the definition of hazing needs to be revised. The example above is great. Doing little things like those mentioned are not harmful and build rapport. If someone does something that IS hazing, that should be punished, but sending you to have a note signed by another member just introduces you to another gal and helps you figure out chapter dynamics (who's friends with whom). I also think there should be tests, but having the entire chapter take that test is fine with me. People mention a lot that they don't remember the details of their pledge period. Taking the test 4 or more times would certainly resolve that issue!

I am most definitely not a fan of the slippery slope argument, and I think you can teach 18-22 year olds the difference between fun, challenging and bonding exercises and abusive, dangerous or humiliating ones. And a test that requires you to name the founders, the year of your founding, the Greek alphabet and the other chapters on campus is not too much to ask. If someone won't commit to learning that much in 6 weeks, how much commitment are you really going to get out of her over a lifetime?

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I think there's something to feeling like you've "earned it" and I think the definition of hazing needs to be revised. The example above is great. Doing little things like those mentioned are not harmful and build rapport. If someone does something that IS hazing, that should be punished, but sending you to have a note signed by another member just introduces you to another gal and helps you figure out chapter dynamics (who's friends with whom). I also think there should be tests, but having the entire chapter take that test is fine with me. People mention a lot that they don't remember the details of their pledge period. Taking the test 4 or more times would certainly resolve that issue!

I am most definitely not a fan of the slippery slope argument, and I think you can teach 18-22 year olds the difference between fun, challenging and bonding exercises and abusive, dangerous or humiliating ones. And a test that requires you to name the founders, the year of your founding, the Greek alphabet and the other chapters on campus is not too much to ask. If someone won't commit to learning that much in 6 weeks, how much commitment are you really going to get out of her over a lifetime?

Exactly. And that's what those little exercises did. I was able to figure out best friends, big/littles, etc. I also found out who has a sense of humor, who were the "stricter" sisters, who were the "sympathetic" or sweet sisters, etc.

I also believe a test should have to be passed. We had to take weekly quizzes and then a big test. The weekly quizzes were based on the previous week's "history" part of the pledge education meetings (hence the term, "pledge education."

I'm glad that our Founder's Day ritual goes rather deeply into the lives of our founders, because it reiterates the very important story of how we came to exist. I've met currently active sisters who could not name all the founders or even the national President of the day. I think that should be easy information to hold onto. But that's just my opinion of my personal experience with my fraternity.*

Edited to add: *Fraternity here refers to the official name of Alpha Xi Delta Women's Fraternity.

[melindawarren]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

I also believe a test should have to be passed. We had to take weekly quizzes and then a big test. The weekly quizzes were based on the previous week's "history" part of the pledge education meetings (hence the term, "pledge education."

I'm glad that our Founder's Day ritual goes rather deeply into the lives of our founders, because it reiterates the very important story of how we came to exist. I've met currently active sisters who could not name all the founders or even the national President of the day. I think that should be easy information to hold onto. But that's just my opinion of my personal experience with my fraternity.*

Edited to add: *Fraternity here refers to the official name of Alpha Xi Delta Women's Fraternity.

I can't understand why a history test (a flat-out history test) is hazing. I guess it's because only new members do it? What if everyone had to do it? Really, there's no excuse for not knowing the basic facts of the group.

I don't know if I mentioned this in my story, but I am Jewish, and learning about the history of SDT was a really great experience. Our founders were pretty fascinating women for their time, and I'm proud to be part of their vision (especially as a young Jewish woman who has actually felt anti-Semitism. Yes, it still exists). I'm sure that anyone who takes the time to learn about their sorority's history would share my feelings. How could anyone familiar with how their group came to be not feel a sense of pride? The idea that people can wear letters and NOT know what's behind them is just mind-boggling to me.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by melindawarren

I can't understand why a history test (a flat-out history test) is hazing. I guess it's because only new members do it? What if everyone had to do it? Really, there's no excuse for not knowing the basic facts of the group.

As has been noted before in other threads, there are groups that require such tests prior to initiation. Under our national governing documents, you can't get initiated without scoring 100 on the national exam. This is one of those cases of some groups considering it hazing, not a general consensus that it's hazing.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^Is there a thread here somewhere aout which groups have them? I'm curious. I know that there are some NPCs (I think Delta Gamma but I could be totally off base) that HAD them but have gotten rid of them in the past 5 or so years.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

^^^Is there a thread here somewhere aout which groups have them? I'm curious. I know that there are some NPCs (I think Delta Gamma but I could be totally off base) that HAD them but have gotten rid of them in the past 5 or so years.

This is the closest I could find. I didn't read the whole thing, but I did see a post where AOII Angel says AOII has one.

Kappa Delta has a test as well.

[Mevara]

Originally Posted by 33girl

If you do it as an entire chapter, it kind of defeats the purpose. Some people don't shine in a group situation and I had interviews one on one with sisters that were WAY better than they would have ever been had it been everyone together, going around the room answering questions or something.

I didn't mean to have the whole chapter do it at the same time. But to require the whole chapter to do it on their own collecting the signatures of everyone in the chapter (actives & new members).

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Mevara

I didn't mean to have the whole chapter do it at the same time. But to require the whole chapter to do it on their own collecting the signatures of everyone in the chapter (actives & new members).

In my junior year, we instituted that sisters also interviewed pledges and I think that the sisters HAD to get them all (obviously this would need to be finessed in a 100+ member chapter). Even w/ the sisters doing the same thing the same way (having to set up the interviews, no "on the fly") we still weren't allowed to keep doing them.

Our first nationwide program was ridiculous. No one on one contact was allowed - ever. EVERYTHING was in groups, star circles, etc etc. Now IMO they've swung back too far the other way and the pledges - if the program isn't worked well - are responsible for way more on their own than they should be.

[Mevara]

Originally Posted by 33girl

In my junior year, we instituted that sisters also interviewed pledges and I think that the sisters HAD to get them all (obviously this would need to be finessed in a 100+ member chapter). Even w/ the sisters doing the same thing the same way (having to set up the interviews, no "on the fly") we still weren't allowed to keep doing them.

Our first nationwide program was ridiculous. No one on one contact was allowed - ever. EVERYTHING was in groups, star circles, etc etc. Now IMO they've swung back too far the other way and the pledges - if the program isn't worked well - are responsible for way more on their own than they should be.

I know what you mean about it swinging way too far in the opposite direction. Our chapter used to have meetings that the attire was jeans & letters. Since the new members didn't have letters it left them out hence considered hazing and we stopped doing it.

[melindawarren]

Sigma Delta Tau has a test.

[pam713]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Chi Omega still have a semester-long pledge program? It would be interesting to see how their retention numbers compare to other NPC groups with six to eight week programs.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

We have a test, but it's not like there is a real consequence for failing it.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^Really? That's weird. It defeats the purpose if you can bomb it and still get initiated.

I forget what the percentage is that you need to earn on ours now to be initiated, but when I was initiated it was 85%. You CAN retake it if you don't pass. However, if you have been attending your Arc Sequence (NM) meetings and participating fully, you should. Most NMs do just because the program prepares you pretty well.