Sororities and Feminism

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by als463

See, there you go again. You are still finding fault with something I say or have said and you start attacking me by telling me that I am hostile. It gets really old. You must have some sort of complex. Once again, I don't feel the need to tell you why I'm not a feminist. I thought you said earlier that if a woman knows how to define it and then decides she is not a feminist, then you were okay with that response. I already told you I am aware of the definition and yet you still find something wrong with me not identifying as one. After sitting through various classes on feminism, I realized that it isn't for me. I recognize it's not all about "man-hating" or anything like that. I'm very conservative in all of my views (all) and feminism does not play a part in how I choose to define myself. Does that work for you? Please, feel free to no longer engage me. I would be more than happy with that.

Bwahahaha

[Titchou]

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I understand why some women do not want to be viewed as feminists. A lot of our mothers and grandmothers were that way. Having the man assume all the responsibilities can be a liberating thing for some people. It certainly takes away a lot of worry in some cases. It's not a track I want to be on but my mother sure as heck was! I won't go into all the family history here but ,suffice it to say, at the age of 29 my father was left with 5 dependent female family members and one brother with Down Syndrome for whom he was totally responsible. I think that's when his views shifted and my sister and I were definitely raised to be different from our mother, grandmother and greatgrandmother from that moment on...over our mother's objections.

While I strongly disagree with her attitude, it was, after all, HER right to be that way...though it certainly caused a lot of issues after my father passed away. Personally it is not a way I want to live. Having spent about 20 years in the construction industry when women were not as visible there are they are today, I've been in both worlds as women move towards equality in the workplace and it hasn't been easy. But I have found that men for the most part will respect you when they see that you are capable and know what you are doing. And you have to earn that respect by being professional. I don't mind being "tested" - I've done it to them when they didn't even realize it!

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by als463

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. I once had a Captain poke my breast, while in PT clothing, and ask if they "were real."

I meant to imply no such thing. Nor did I wish yours to be the only voice from the American military. My experiences were very different, and probably neither of us can say ours were typical; we probably don't have that much information.

The strengths I brought to college, the strengths I learned in college and as a DG, and later those gained in the military, enabled me. What shaped your experiences, I don't know and won't speculate since I don't know you.

[AlphaFrog]

I feel like this, as many things are, is a swinging pendulum.

Sororities definitely started off feminist. I think every chapter older than 10-20 years had a time in its past (though the time period may vary by region) where it was about getting the MRS Degree, because that's what college was about for many women (Greek or not). I think we're mostly swinging back towards feminism. Less hazing, less "formalized" interaction with Fraternities (except philanthropy - which is a good thing), and more emphasis on health & safety programming, grades, and community service.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I understand why some women do not want to be viewed as feminists. A lot of our mothers and grandmothers were that way. Having the man assume all the responsibilities can be a liberating thing for some people. It certainly takes away a lot of worry in some cases. It's not a track I want to be on but my mother sure as heck was! I won't go into all the family history here but ,suffice it to say, at the age of 29 my father was left with 5 dependent female family members and one brother with Down Syndrome for whom he was totally responsible. I think that's when his views shifted and my sister and I were definitely raised to be different from our mother, grandmother and greatgrandmother from that moment on...over our mother's objections.

While I strongly disagree with her attitude, it was, after all, HER right to be that way...though it certainly caused a lot of issues after my father passed away. Personally it is not a way I want to live. Having spent about 20 years in the construction industry when women were not as visible there are they are today, I've been in both worlds as women move towards equality in the workplace and it hasn't been easy. But I have found that men for the most part will respect you when they see that you are capable and know what you are doing. And you have to earn that respect by being professional. I don't mind being "tested" - I've done it to them when they didn't even realize it!

This thought process is coming back with a group of very religious people called "Quiverfull" that believe a woman's place is in the home and God has placed the man as the head of the household in order to provide for the family. It's very interesting to read some of the plans these groups make to almost live off the grid. I don't personally understand why a woman would want to do this, or a man for that matter, since I don't want to be the sole supporter of any able adult.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

This thought process is coming back with a group of very religious people called "Quiverfull" that believe a woman's place is in the home and God has placed the man as the head of the household in order to provide for the family.

And without going as far as the Quiverfull folks, there's the complimentarian view, also a conservative religious view.

I don't personally understand why a woman would want to do this, or a man for that matter, since I don't want to be the sole supporter of any able adult.

But surely a feminist couple can make the choice that, for them (whether for the short term or long term), it makes sense for one to work outside the home and one to stay at home. I think there's a very real difference between, say, the wife not working outside the home because she's not "supposed to" and the wife (or husband) not working outside the home because she/he/they have made the decision that it's what's best for them.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

I've seen this everywhere from Ivy League campuses to top-10 party schools. There are hot chapters and fat/ugly chapters.

Welcome to LIFE. The fact of the matter is, attractive people tend to be friends with other attractive people, and vice versa. The difference is, as you get older/move to different places, what you find attractive may change.

I'm sure some of the chapters of hot tan (tanning is not hot by the way) skinny women are also this way because they have inferiority complexes and have to keep validating that the look they've chosen is the "right" one.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Having spent about 20 years in the construction industry when women were not as visible there are they are today, I've been in both worlds as women move towards equality in the workplace and it hasn't been easy. But I have found that men for the most part will respect you when they see that you are capable and know what you are doing. And you have to earn that respect by being professional. I don't mind being "tested" - I've done it to them when they didn't even realize it!

This is the difference between good feminism and bad feminism. Good is what Titchou described - being given a chance to show what you could do and showing that you are every bit as capable as a man. Bad feminism is "women have been sooooo oppressed for soooooo long, you have a RIGHT to be in this job, even if you don't know your butt from a hole in the ground. Oh and a man who does his job well should probably be fired while we're at it so we can hire another woman and make it a nicer environment." Unfortunately, the bad feminists are usually the loudest and that's what makes many women loath to identify as one. As with all other things in life, the crazies ruin it for the moderate majority.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And without going as far as the Quiverfull folks, there's the complimentarian view, also a conservative religious view.

But surely a feminist couple can make the choice that, for them (whether for the short term or long term), it makes sense for one to work outside the home and one to stay at home. I think there's a very real difference between, say, the wife not working outside the home because she's not "supposed to" and the wife (or husband) not working outside the home because she/he/they have made the decision that it's what's best for them.

Certainly. The Quiverfull group is just the extreme end of the anti-feminist spectrum and why I used them as an example. Women (and men) should have the option to stay home if they feel it's the best for their families, but it goes a little farther with this group.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This is the difference between good feminism and bad feminism. Good is what Titchou described - being given a chance to show what you could do and showing that you are every bit as capable as a man. Bad feminism is "women have been sooooo oppressed for soooooo long, you have a RIGHT to be in this job, even if you don't know your butt from a hole in the ground. Oh and a man who does his job well should probably be fired while we're at it so we can hire another woman and make it a nicer environment." Unfortunately, the bad feminists are usually the loudest and that's what makes many women loath to identify as one. As with all other things in life, the crazies ruin it for the moderate majority.

I think the crazies are FAR rarer than the number of people who parody them in this way, e.g. Rush Limbaugh using "feminazi" to describe anyone who believes in gender equality. Just because the opposing side sets up this strawman doesn't mean it is a prominent argument.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think the crazies are FAR rarer than the number of people who parody them in this way, e.g. Rush Limbaugh using "feminazi" to describe anyone who believes in gender equality. Just because the opposing side sets up this strawman doesn't mean it is a prominent argument.

Indeed. Again - paralleling the arguement for and against the Greek system - just because the stereotype persists and one or two people conform to the stereotype, that is not representative of the whole group.

It also allows the opposition to eliminate rational discussion of the topic if sane people are not willing to provide critical insight or to point out the insanity.

[Tulip86]

Originally Posted by AGDee

This is how I think of feminism and I'm always confused about how a woman who has gone to college, held a job in an underrepresented field, owned property, or voted in an election can say they are not a feminist. Without feminism, none of those things would have been possible.

The feminist movement has had a great benefit to both men and women. It has raised our standard of living as we can have dual income households, taking the pressure off of the man to be the sole provider. Men can also choose any occupation they want, even things that were traditionally "female only" such as nursing. Men have different relationships with their children, more healthy relationships, than simply being the disciplinarian in the family. It also allows men to not always be stoic and strong. It also allows men to take paternity leaves in some cases (something I think should be universal!)

Feminism is about choice. It allows families to choose how they want to function, whether they decide, as a unit, to have a stay at home mom, stay at home dad, or two working parents. It allows women to leave abusive situations because they can have a job and own their own house. It allows divorced families to set up joint custody arrangements allowing the dads to remain involved in raising their kids. It is more the norm here for courts to grant joint custody than to automatically grant the mom full custody.

als, this is not an attack on you, but it is difficult for me to understand how you can say you do not believe in equal rights for women when you've done all of these non-traditional things that would not have been possible 50 years ago. I sometimes wonder if women of your generation don't realize how things were for my mother's generation. My mom had to quit her job as a bank teller as soon as she was visibly pregnant. Do you believe that is right?

In my experience, our sororities definitely support feminism. Much of our programming is about developing leadership skills and empowering women to make decisions. We encourage scholastic success and provide networking opportunities to aid our members in the work force. If you join a sorority simply for the mixers, you're going to be really disappointed because you spend a lot more hours doing other things with the chapter.

Very well said AGDee, I agree on every aspect.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Certainly. The Quiverfull group is just the extreme end of the anti-feminist spectrum and why I used them as an example. Women (and men) should have the option to stay home if they feel it's the best for their families, but it goes a little farther with this group.

You're being charitable when you say "a little farther."

[SWTXBelle]

There is a difference between the denotative meaning of the word and the connotative. Many women who are in fact described by the denotative meaning reject the term because of the connotative meaning.

As for me, Nora Ephron stated that I cannot be called a feminist because I am anti-abortion.( http://womenandhollywood.com/2010/10...e-on-feminism/) Fine. But the next time you read an article in which self-proclaimed feminists wring their hands because they can't understand why women who believe in equality won't call themselves feminists please understand that it may be because they were told believing in equality between the sexes wasn't enough.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

There is a difference between the denotative meaning of the word and the connotative. Many women who are in fact described by the denotative meaning reject the term because of the connotative meaning.

As for me, Nora Ephron stated that I cannot be called a feminist because I am anti-abortion.( http://womenandhollywood.com/2010/10...e-on-feminism/) Fine. But the next time you read an article in which self-proclaimed feminists wring their hands because they can't understand why women who believe in equality won't call themselves feminists please understand that it may be because they were told believing in equality between the sexes wasn't enough.

Some Republicans have said that you cannot be prochoice or gay or athiest and a Republican. Some Democrats have said you must be also prochoice, and they wanted it written into the party platform to make sure you knew they said it. The Pope has said that you cannot promote contraception and be Catholic, and yet some women use it all the time and do not think twice about it or calling themselves Catholic.

So why let it bother you what Nora Ephron thinks?