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  #1  
Old 07-27-2005, 05:19 PM
TristanDSP TristanDSP is offline
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"We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or not"

So, there's a hill that has a giant cross on it down here in SD, and a bunch of atheists have been trying to have it taken down since 1989. The land the cross is on has been disputed for sometime, and yesterday, in a special election, we voted 75% to 25% to transfer the cross to the federal gov to maintain it.

Now, this Civil Rights lawyer named McElroy keeps saying this isn't an issue for the voters to decide, it's the court's. He backs that up by saying:

"We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or not,"

Ok, comparing something that happened back then, when people of color didn't have the same civil rights as whites, to a dispute thats cost millions in taxpayer dollars that a few atheists are complaining about is assinine. To say this isn't a matter of the people just shows how contradictory some of these civil rights lawyers really are

San Diego.......clouding the corrupt, incompetent government and operations with "we have hot girls and nice beaches".

________________________________________________


Voters Overwhelmingly Approve Initiative To Save Cross

Wed Jul 27, 1:17 PM ET

Supporters of the Mount Soledad cross celebrated Tuesday after voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot initiative aimed at preserving the monument by transferring it to the federal government.


But the fight over the controversial monument may not be over.

"We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or not," said James McElroy, attorney for a resident who sued the city over the cross' presence on city land 16 years ago, beginning a protracted and complex legal battle.

McElroy vowed to challenge the issue in court yet again.

"This will be resolved in the courtroom where it deserves to be resolved and not in front of the voters," McElroy told the media.

City Attorney Michael Aguirre has also warned that it would be unconstitutional for the city to transfer the cross to the government, because it would be done primarily to preserve a religious symbol.

Despite the potential legal snarls, supporters of Proposition A were all smiles after election returns gave the measure an easy victory -- even though it needed approval from two-thirds of voters.

With all 721 precincts counted, Proposition A had support from 75.9 percent of voters.

"It's humbling," said Phil Thalheimer, one of the Proposition A campaign leaders.

"I never would have expected these types of numbers," Thalheimer said. "I hoped for it, and anticipated it but, in my heart I didn't think we'd do this well."

Thalheimer said the issue went across party and religious lines, and was a "unifying piece for San Diego."

The City Council placed the measure on the ballot in May after a signature-gathering effort organized by a group called San Diegans fnr the Mount Soledad National War Memorial.

The transfer was proposed by two San Diego-area congressmen as a way to prevent the cross' removal from the La Jolla hilltop.

Federal permission for the transfer was included in a spending bill signed by
President George W. Bush.

Supporters are hoping Tuesday's big win at the polls will end the 16-year legal dispute, which began when resident Philip Paulson sued the city.

Paulson argued that the cross' presence on public land violated separation of church and state provisions in both the U.S. and California constitutions.

Judges twice ruled that the sale of the land to the Mount Soledad Memorial Association, which maintains the site as a veterans memorial, was unconstitutional because one group was favored over another.

San Diego voters in November rejected a ballot measure, Proposition K, that would have authorized another sale of the land in an effort to correct the consitutional violations.
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  #2  
Old 07-27-2005, 05:58 PM
Tom Earp Tom Earp is offline
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Democracy beats anything else doesnt it?

We may not like it, but it beats the other alternatives.

Now, My Quesion is is Mc Elroy a ACLU Lawyer? Or just a I am for Civil Rights? What is His Agenda? Fame Maybe?

To be truthful, this is History, it did happen! So, what is the reason for bringing this up?


Rosa Parks is a small part of History, whethere it be small or big, it is still History! She is still an important part of it like many others!

Have you been by The Church Of Martin Luther King in Atlanta, I have!!!!

TristanDSP, still History isnt it like America fighting against The British for Self Government?
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  #3  
Old 07-27-2005, 06:44 PM
AKA_Monet AKA_Monet is offline
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HAAY, I voted for that cross to stay up there--EVERY TIME IT CAME BEFORE A VOTE!!!

If those dayum atheists want to prop up their images on a barren mountain in SoCal (good luck), then let them!

But they want "civil rights" violations now??? WTF??? What do the troops have to say about that who just came from Iraq???

Anyhow, there is a reasonable amount of sniper distance from one hill to another when those protesting atheists start their rantings...

That's when I haveta say, "God Bless Texas"...
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  #4  
Old 07-27-2005, 09:46 PM
hoosier hoosier is offline
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It will be decades - assuming that conservatives retain control of the White House and Congress - for the lib judges to die off/retire and be replaced by judges who want to interpret the law, not make it.

As we didn't vote to give Rosa a well-deserved seat, we didn't vote to legalize abortion or to require school busing and 1000's of other things. Liberal judges in GA are about to give the overpaid and underworked (would you believe 51 'personal' days off each year) transit workers more, and about to tell the state how much money to give some rural counties (who don't tax themselves much) for education.

It's time for judges to stop making laws.
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  #5  
Old 07-27-2005, 10:01 PM
valkyrie valkyrie is offline
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Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or no

Quote:
Originally posted by TristanDSP
Paulson argued that the cross' presence on public land violated separation of church and state provisions in both the U.S. and California constitutions.
This is the only statement in this entire thread that makes any sense. Put the cross on private land and STFU.
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2005, 10:34 PM
AKA_Monet AKA_Monet is offline
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Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or no

Quote:
Originally posted by valkyrie
This is the only statement in this entire thread that makes any sense. Put the cross on private land and STFU.
That's the thing... It was voted to make that land private. It is an old WWII memorial. San Diego, CA is a huge military town and has that legacy. To remove the cross from the mountains it was put upon would be erasing part of the culture of San Diego.

I guess folks can say the same thing about the Confederate Flag...

But the land is now privately owned... It used to not be owned privately, but now it is... And the opposition wants to fight a losing court battle that has been voted on by the people 3 times and have lost the vote...

I can see if it was about people and affecting their rights as citizens.

But this is about a landmark in the city about the men who died for this country placing a Christian marker on land to memorialize them. That is all it is about...

If that cross is removed, these buttwipes will decimate the land and pave paradise and put up a parking lot...

Whatever, for the will of the people...

Freedom ain't free, I guess...
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  #7  
Old 07-28-2005, 02:05 PM
HBADPi HBADPi is offline
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Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or no

Quote:
Originally posted by AKA_Monet
But this is about a landmark in the city about the men who died for this country placing a Christian marker on land to memorialize them. That is all it is about...
This sentence made no sense...who put up the marker? The soliders or people trying to memorialize them? And since when is the miliary solely a Christian organization? What about the other religious groups that soliders may be affliated with? If your argument is that it should stay up to remember the soliders then I think you need to consider getting a Star of David and a Cresent Moon up there too.

Last edited by HBADPi; 07-28-2005 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:23 PM
moe.ron moe.ron is offline
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What about the soldiers that are atheist?
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:36 PM
HBADPi HBADPi is offline
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Them too sorry but since she mentioned them using the cross to memorialize the soliders I was trying to point out the religious diversity that exists in the military and I just ran with that...

Last edited by HBADPi; 07-28-2005 at 02:39 PM.
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  #10  
Old 07-28-2005, 05:21 PM
CutiePie2000 CutiePie2000 is offline
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I guess it's time to redo all that American money too, what with "IN GOD WE TRUST" being written all over it everywhere. Oy vey......
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:25 PM
valkyrie valkyrie is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CutiePie2000
I guess it's time to redo all that American money too, what with "IN GOD WE TRUST" being written all over it everywhere. Oy vey......
I think "In God We Trust" should be removed from money. However, this would be extremely costly and inconvenient, so I'd rather fight other battles.
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:28 PM
AKA_Monet AKA_Monet is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or

Quote:
Originally posted by HBADPi
This sentence made no sense...who put up the marker? The soliders or people trying to memorialize them? And since when is the miliary solely a Christian organization? What about the other religious groups that soliders may be affliated with? If your argument is that it should stay up to remember the soliders then I think you need to consider getting a Star of David and a Cresent Moon up there too.
After WWII and the Korean War, the veterans in San Diego put that cross on Mt. Soladad, Mt. Helix and another mountain in Sweetwater to memorialize the members who were lost during the war. That is just how old these crosses are. They correspond to the historical Spanish accents throughout the whole San Diego landscape--that is why they were painted in the Spanish stucco white colors. There are 2 large Spanish built catholic churches also atop 2 mountains in San Diego that correspond to the ones in San Juan Capistrano and San Francisco. They are the Presidio, which is a National Park and a historical marker and the Mission De Alcala, which is a historical marker. I think either the Jesuits or the Franciscans still hold services at these locations.

Also there is Point Loma that has the school Pt. Loma Nazarene that follows religious Spanish architecture, as well as La Jolla, San Diego State University and Balboa Park.

It is just the history of the city. I am not make it up, nor am I bullshitting here.

Most of the veterans after WWII and the Korean war were Christian and so were their families.

You have to understand that San Diego is still a MILITARY TOWN--with the largest Naval operations during WWII, Korean, Vietnam and the Gulf War... They also have Camp Pendleton Marines and the Marine Helicopter Base in Miramar. Even the old MCRD buildings that were allegedly sold off in the 1990s are built in the religious Spanish architecture style. However, the Naval ops center as well as north island don't have too many Spanish build buildings, but Coronado does.

The issue is the removal of something endearing to San Diego for over 60 years. It is part of its history for ALL wars except maybe this current one. Either way, most Navy and Marine personnel as well as other outfits MUST go through San Diego if they are deployed off something that is on water or a naval plane... Even some stealths go through San Diego--and I've seen them personally...

Yes, maybe it was not appropriately handled the first time this cross burning idea was brought up in 1980-something... The fact that the land was governmental land, etc. was an issue. However the people voted and changed that issue and made it private land sometime in the 1990's. Then there were issues with the way the cross just sticks out, that got voted on and folks turned it down. Why? Too many MILITARY PERSONNEL not appreciating the idea of removing ANY MEMORIAL to them...

Hayle, it ain't about other religions putting up their icons on mountains if they want to. In fact, some do in San Diego--or maybe Mexico, I haven't seen very many on a large piece of land like Mt. Soledad, but they are there. The Buddhist Temple in University Heights and the Mosque in Claremont off Balboa Ave. And there are numerous Jewish markers all over San Diego now. The Mormons have a HUGE temple in La Jolla off the 5 and it is a monstrosity...

What this vote is about is respecting the veterans who come home back from war and telling them their memorials built for them are bullshit and invalid...

And as far as the Atheist go, well, you cannot serve without getting fragged if you're an atheist in the military. You better believe in something... Your CO will make you believe in him if you don't... I am not being funny, it is just a fact... All I can say, if you don't believe in nothing, good luck on the battlefield...
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:31 PM
HelloKitty22 HelloKitty22 is offline
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Well, there are people who don't agree that "in God we trust" should be on the money. I for one will admit I don't because I'm agnostic. But even if you concede that "in God we trust" is appropriate. God is a much more inclusive concept than a Christian cross. A cross is actually very exclusive. It is a representation of Jesus Christ as the messiah. It promotes that specific idea. And anyone who does not believe in that concept is not represented by a cross.
The government shouldn't be promoting any version of God, or God at all for that matter. A cross promotes the idea that Jesus was the messiah, and I don't think the government should be in the business of promoting Jesus. We have churches and missionaries to do that.
Furthermore, if Christians want a specific memorial to remember Christian members of the service or to recognize the sacrifice of all in the military from a Christian perspective they are free to do that ... they just have to buy their own land and put their own memorial.
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:43 PM
TristanDSP TristanDSP is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front

Quote:
Originally posted by AKA_Monet
The Mormons have a HUGE temple in La Jolla off the 5 and it is a monstrosity...
Monet, using "monstrosity" 's being too nice to the cult and that abomination that they worship in.
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:44 PM
AKA_Monet AKA_Monet is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HelloKitty22
if Christians want a specific memorial to remember Christian members of the service or to recognize the sacrifice of all in the military from a Christian perspective they are free to do that ... they just have to buy their own land and put their own memorial.
We are talking 1945 here when these icons were put on top of mountains in San Diego...

We are not talking about 2 years ago, Iraq War...

Yes, things change. But buildings do not change unless there is a catastrophe.

The folks the put these icons up are no longer living and only their children speak for them.

However, to discount their efforts of keeping a part of history on PRIVATE LAND that was VOTED ON BY THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE--I.E. DEMOCRACY IN ACTION--means your freedom is called into question...

Hey, I know too many folks fighting in Iraq for my rights. Some have died there too. No matter what their beliefs are, they are changed. And it is just foul to neglect their chances to obtain some well deserved respect regardless of whether or not we think this war is right or wrong...

Most of these KIDS that become MEN AND WOMEN will be coming back with many problems, at least we can give them some solace to go to a park and settle their beliefs at a location they feel respects them...

You take away a soldier's rights... Then you have a bunch of mercenaries that are loose cannons in public... They can shoot rifles, well you know... Many are excellent marksmen and women... Most are tank drivers on convoy... Good luck with that right taking from service personnel...
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