Recs being dropped for PNMs?

[JonInKC]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

In related university student news, the Illinois legislature is proposing that its public universities drop entrance exam requirements. Just another great reason to allow anyone attending an Illinois public university campus to join a fraternal greek organization

It's ABLEIST to not allow people into college just because they won't be able to pass the classes! I can't even with you right now. I'm literally shaking.

[Sister Havana]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

In related university student news, the Illinois legislature is proposing that its public universities drop entrance exam requirements. Just another great reason to allow anyone attending an Illinois public university campus to join a fraternal greek organization

Just to clarify, a lot of Illinois universities (including U of I) are currently going test-optional temporarily due to Covid. It sounds like this bill would make that permanent. Applicants can still submit ACT or SAT scores if they want to, but they aren't required to. All other admission criteria will still apply. Here's some more information about the proposed bill, and here is a Test-Optional FAQ from UIC, as a rrepresentative sample.

ETA: Several Illinois schools already were test-optional pre-Covid, including Knox, DePaul, SIU, WIU, Monmouth, and University of Chicago.

[shadokat]

What's the difference if you drop entrance exam requirements, or you have requirements and then admit 90% of the people anyways? At least they're a little transparent about it. PA State Schools have been admitting anything with a pulse, outside of West Chester, for ages. It's sad.

Originally Posted by Cheerio

In related university student news, the Illinois legislature is proposing that its public universities drop entrance exam requirements. Just another great reason to allow anyone attending an Illinois public university campus to join a fraternal greek organization

[SWTXBelle]

Gamma Phi Beta has dropped recommendations and will now accept letters of recommendation from anyone. The new form should be released on 5/17.

[Lupine]

Originally Posted by JonInKC

It's ABLEIST to not allow people into college just because they won't be able to pass the classes! I can't even with you right now. I'm literally shaking.

I'm a private admissions counselor in a group practice. This year, nearly 60% of our students applied to college without test scores. We did not see unexpected results. Top students with large numbers of AP and/or IB courses with high grades, strong extracurricular activities, and (presumably) strong recommendations still got into highly selective colleges. Good students who tossed applications at highly selective colleges didn't get admitted. We have lots of students who apply to the University of California campuses. That system was test blind this year via a court order. Again, we didn't see unexpected results.

Most colleges that are test blind (will not look at scores) or test-optional (will consider if submitted) will still look at AP/IB scores. They also look at awards and recognitions from national and regional competitions, like the National Latin Exam, American Mathematics Exam, National History Day, Science Fairs, and so on.

We tell our students that when you apply test-optional, that just means that all other parts of your application get more scrutiny.

Based on working with hundreds of college applicants, just about anyone willing to spend $2500-$4000 on individual test prep can legitimately raise an ACT score from 23 to 30 or higher. Gains on the SAT are harder, especially for applicants without strong reading skills and vocabulary. We don't do test prep, but we keep in touch with folks who do a good job, and we see what money and time can buy. We also know the process that needs to be followed at high schools in our area to qualify and get approved for extended time. Many lower-income students who ought to qualify for extended time based on ADD or other learning disabilities never get that because they don't know to ask and their guidance counselors have huge caseloads.

I'm unconvinced that the SAT or ACT adds a lot of value, especially since money can (and does) buy prep that can achieve just about any desired score. There are cram schools in some cities where a few weeks of prep results in more than half the students earning 1500 or higher on the SAT.

What we did see this year is that less selective colleges (and most of the colleges in America are less selective) are under-enrolled for this fall and that hundreds are still accepting applicants for fall admissions. I made inquiries two weeks ago for a student with a radical change of plan, and seven of the nine less selective colleges I checked were still quietly accepting applications for engineering, though only three were on the space available list published by NACAC.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by shadokat

What's the difference if you drop entrance exam requirements, or you have requirements and then admit 90% of the people anyways? At least they're a little transparent about it. PA State Schools have been admitting anything with a pulse, outside of West Chester, for ages. It's sad.

I remember back in the day, one of my pledge sisters was working in the admissions office at Pitt. She showed me the applications of a couple of athletes, with SAT scores between 420-440. You get 400 points for signing your name.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by Lupine

I'm a private admissions counselor in a group practice. This year, nearly 60% of our students applied to college without test scores. We did not see unexpected results. Top students with large numbers of AP and/or IB courses with high grades, strong extracurricular activities, and (presumably) strong recommendations still got into highly selective colleges. Good students who tossed applications at highly selective colleges didn't get admitted. We have lots of students who apply to the University of California campuses. That system was test blind this year via a court order. Again, we didn't see unexpected results.

Most colleges that are test blind (will not look at scores) or test-optional (will consider if submitted) will still look at AP/IB scores. They also look at awards and recognitions from national and regional competitions, like the National Latin Exam, American Mathematics Exam, National History Day, Science Fairs, and so on.

We tell our students that when you apply test-optional, that just means that all other parts of your application get more scrutiny.

Based on working with hundreds of college applicants, just about anyone willing to spend $2500-$4000 on individual test prep can legitimately raise an ACT score from 23 to 30 or higher. Gains on the SAT are harder, especially for applicants without strong reading skills and vocabulary. We don't do test prep, but we keep in touch with folks who do a good job, and we see what money and time can buy. We also know the process that needs to be followed at high schools in our area to qualify and get approved for extended time. Many lower-income students who ought to qualify for extended time based on ADD or other learning disabilities never get that because they don't know to ask and their guidance counselors have huge caseloads.

I'm unconvinced that the SAT or ACT adds a lot of value, especially since money can (and does) buy prep that can achieve just about any desired score. There are cram schools in some cities where a few weeks of prep results in more than half the students earning 1500 or higher on the SAT.

What we did see this year is that less selective colleges (and most of the colleges in America are less selective) are under-enrolled for this fall and that hundreds are still accepting applicants for fall admissions. I made inquiries two weeks ago for a student with a radical change of plan, and seven of the nine less selective colleges I checked were still quietly accepting applications for engineering, though only three were on the space available list published by NACAC.

From a Parent perspective I've noticed all of this as well. My oldest applied to two less selective colleges as back-ups (and because they were test runs for filling out the applications and he had 'apply for free" codes). he has been bombarded with emails and letters from those schools saying "you didn't start here, but you can finish here!". One of his acquaintances that didn't get into one of those schools for fall semester received a similar message from the college and he transferred at the semester break.

as for no recs, I think recs are helpful. They are not make or break for us though. We don't have our pledge class 100% selected before recruitment even starts. The best "recs" we get are the No-recs. The danger ahead recs.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

he has been bombarded with emails and letters from those schools saying "you didn't start here, but you can finish here!". One of his acquaintances that didn't get into one of those schools for fall semester received a similar message from the college and he transferred at the semester break.

as for no recs, I think recs are helpful. They are not make or break for us though. We don't have our pledge class 100% selected before recruitment even starts. The best "recs" we get are the No-recs. The danger ahead recs.

YES. My oldest daughter and I no-recced a girl whom we had seen attack the assistant director at Scout camp. (She was a counselor.)One day, the phone rang and it was the head of AOII's alum rec committee in that town--she couldn't reach my daughter about the no-rec and wanted to ask me to thank her. The committee had done some searching and found out that this girl had a record for assault in a few places.

By the way, here was the outcome. The girl didn't get a bid from anyone and the college president harassed the one sorority with slots available to take her. They finally did. A member of that chapter told me that the girl was kicked out in a few weeks for assaulting a sister.

[honeychile]

If anyone is questioning the value of a recommendation, this should help you make up your mind!

Originally Posted by carnation

YES. My oldest daughter and I no-recced a girl whom we had seen attack the assistant director at Scout camp. (She was a counselor.)One day, the phone rang and it was the head of AOII's alum rec committee in that town--she couldn't reach my daughter about the no-rec and wanted to ask me to thank her. The committee had done some searching and found out that this girl had a record for assault in a few places.

By the way, here was the outcome. The girl didn't get a bid from anyone and the college president harassed the one sorority with slots available to take her. They finally did. A member of that chapter told me that the girl was kicked out in a few weeks for assaulting a sister.

[AnchorAlumna]

I understand that Kappa Alpha Theta has opened its recommendation forms to any human.

[carnation]

That was smart! Grab any ole human off the street and tell him what to write about you!

[TLLK]

Originally Posted by carnation

YES. My oldest daughter and I no-recced a girl whom we had seen attack the assistant director at Scout camp. (She was a counselor.)One day, the phone rang and it was the head of AOII's alum rec committee in that town--she couldn't reach my daughter about the no-rec and wanted to ask me to thank her. The committee had done some searching and found out that this girl had a record for assault in a few places.

By the way, here was the outcome. The girl didn't get a bid from anyone and the college president harassed the one sorority with slots available to take her. They finally did. A member of that chapter told me that the girl was kicked out in a few weeks for assaulting a sister.

How fortunate for the AOII chapter and others that they had this information on that PNM because you and your daughter had taken the opportunity to not recommend her for membership. How awful for the sister in the sorority who was assaulted.

[thetalady]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

I understand that Kappa Alpha Theta has opened its recommendation forms to any human.

... making recs absolutely useless now. They were iffy already.

[JonInKC]

Originally Posted by thetalady

... making recs absolutely useless now. They were iffy already.

Feeling cute, might write a rec for someone's daughter later, idk

[thetalady]

Originally Posted by JonInKC

Feeling cute, might write a rec for someone's daughter later, idk

I am OUT of the rec business!