advice needed

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by auburnmom2007

on the website it said recs were not necessary, if the sorority needed them they would get them for the rushee I am now thinking this was a huge mistake on our part not knowing how important this was if there was such limited space with 1200 girls rushing

First off, I hope no one takes this the wrong way as I'm not trying to criticize anyone who has been told this and follows it. Secondly, because I've been actively involved with Bama Recuitment for more than a decade it's entirely possible that my view is completely skewed by my first hand knowledge. Thirdly, I only quoted Auburnmom because hers was the most succinct post about this topic to make my point.

With all that being said, why do folks assume "not necessary" means "not needed at all"? From the info I've learned about all the sororities, none actually require Recs in order to participate in Recruitment. But a PNM's chances are much more slim without them when going through a highly competitive Recruitment. Why? First and foremost it's an easy cut along with grades.

All anyone needs to do is look at the the numbers that go through Recruitment on any given campus. If it's in the 1,000's then why don't PNM's do everything they possibly can to improve their chances? As with anything in life, if you are 1 out of 1,000+ it's going to be tough to stand out and make people remember you.

I have an example of how the circumstances of Recruitment were practically identical to my getting a job. Many moons ago I applied for an entry level position at a very large corporation. There were maybe 12 openings and several 1,000's of applicants. My Dad had a lot of connections with the company but told me I had to "stand on my own two feet". Despite a solid resume with experience in that field, I didn't even get an interview. A year later the same entry level positions opened up. This time Dad made some calls. His connections couldn't promise me a job, but they did make recommendations and I got an interview. Then it was up to me and I "wowed" the interviewers enough to get the job.

I don't look at this as a "who you know" vs "what you know" thing. Instead I view it as employers having 1,000's of candidates for a handful of positions. Even if they wanted to they couldn't review every application and resume they received and interview every single candidate. That would take years! They needed to whittle down the pool. I learned later the first cut was anyone who didn't have a college degree. The second was anyone who didn't have at least a certain college GPA. That still left several hundred applicants and they only planned on interviewing less than 100. So they looked at recommendations. Sound familiar?

Is it fair? Maybe not, but it's real life.

[Army Wife'79]

I think you had a good analogy however, let's take it a step further. On your resume under "references" do you put people you have known for a nanosecond, or people who only read your resume? Of course not. You put people who know you well, know your skill sets and can vouch for your character.
That is why when my D went thru a SEC rush, she only had 3 recs. People who knew her well: an aunt, a boss (a veterinarian) and a neighbor who she knew for 3 years and did petsitting for. When a friends Mom found out she didn't have recs for all groups, she offered to secure them and WE TURNED HER DOWN. (you can clean the coffee off your monitor now). Frankly, not being "greek wise" we felt it unethical for total strangers to recommend my D when they didn't know if she was a psychopath or serial killer or whatever. I honestly thought the 4.45 gpa and resume would make her stand out because the websites talked about scholastics etc.

[aopirose]

Amen, Zillini.

I have spent some time trying to explain the exact same thing. The girls, more so the moms, kept harping on the fact that the GA said that recs were "not necessary." I said true but if you look at the rush guide and the website in bold letters it says, "Although not required, it is highly recommended to secure recommendations/references for the sororities at LSU by July 1. " It goes on to say, "It helps foster the process by seeking out sorority alumnae who can provide the recommendation. Potential members provide each person who writes a recommendation with a picture, copy of the transcript and activity sheet or resume. In the interest of time, it is helpful to be proactive in this process. By registering with or notifying your city/alumnae Panhellenic that you are participating in recruitment at LSU, they will assist you in obtaining recommendations."

It never ceases to amaze me when mom or daughter calls disappointed.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by Army Wife'79

I think you had a good analogy however, let's take it a step further. On your resume under "references" do you put people you have known for a nanosecond, or people who only read your resume? Of course not. You put people who know you well, know your skill sets and can vouch for your character.
That is why when my D went thru a SEC rush, she only had 3 recs. People who knew her well: an aunt, a boss (a veterinarian) and a neighbor who she knew for 3 years and did petsitting for. When a friends Mom found out she didn't have recs for all groups, she offered to secure them and WE TURNED HER DOWN. (you can clean the coffee off your monitor now). Frankly, not being "greek wise" we felt it unethical for total strangers to recommend my D when they didn't know if she was a psychopath or serial killer or whatever. I honestly thought the 4.45 gpa and resume would make her stand out because the websites talked about scholastics etc.

And I agree with your point. From an advisor's prospective I dislike "info only" recs from alums who have never even met the PNM. The alums probably know just as much about the girl as we do from her Recruitment application. How can you say this girl would be an asset to our organization if you've never even met her?

Years ago I made a personal decision to never write a rec for anyone I didn't know. One of my first years advising I had an active beg me to write one for her "rush crush". I did and she ended up becoming a member. I spent the next 4 years dealing with a variety of standards problems with this young woman. I felt it was my own fault and I vowed to never go through that again nor subject any other Chapter to that possibility.

The problem is that not everyone follows this policy and there's no way we can change it unless all the NPC groups address it at the same time.

[auburnmom2007]

well when the information quoted that recs should come from people who know you, we didn't know anyone on the list we were given. i was not informed enough to know we were to lie! my daughter had an extensive list of club activities including leadership, service and a gpa of 4.25 now what? we know there are some from our area with a much lower gpa that got in with no more beauty or brains than H.
i asked for advice and have gotten a lot of information through this but along with that i am fed some .....i have not raised a liar and dont intend to promote it now. she has talent and beauty and we do not need anyone else to remind us of that this is what i will do... i will remind her of her strengths, her beauty and we will find peace in whatever she decides to do. thank you all

[MaggieXi]

I also have noticed how people harp on the "pnm only met the girls for 20 minutes, how can they decide based on a 20 min. conversation". Well, based on a 20 min. conversation with no other information, they can't make a solid decision. However, they can decide based on a 20 min. conversation + steller resume + recs from alums. The recs paint a picture of the pnm that a 20 min. conversation can not.

And I again reiterate my previous point on several threads, at what point does the pnm take responsibility to research and follow up on something that she wants to be involved in. Most of the pnms are 18 yrs old, have incredible network skills via the internet and yet don't use them. My sister is going to college. When she was looking at colleges she went on to facebook and actually befriended some people at the schools she was looking at and they gave her input and they still talk even now. Noone told her to do this, she took responsibility for this huge decision and did her homework.

I agree with Zillinis post by saying that not necessary does not not equal not important. It's like a job post, if it says "writing samples are not necessary" and you know that there are other highly qualified people most likely applying for the same job, aren't you going to include writing samples, just go give you an edge?

[MaggieXi]

Originally Posted by auburnmom2007

well when the information quoted that recs should come from people who know you, we didn't know anyone on the list we were given. i was not informed enough to know we were to lie! my daughter had an extensive list of club activities including leadership, service and a gpa of 4.25 now what? we know there are some from our area with a much lower gpa that got in with no more beauty or brains than H.
i asked for advice and have gotten a lot of information through this but along with that i am fed some .....i have not raised a liar and dont intend to promote it now. she has talent and beauty and we do not need anyone else to remind us of that this is what i will do... i will remind her of her strengths, her beauty and we will find peace in whatever she decides to do. thank you all

Ok.....are you implying to get into a sorority, one must lie? That pretty much flies in the face of almost all principals of greek life.

[aopirose]

I am sorry, auburnmom2007. I don’t see where anyone asked either you or your daughter to lie. You may not have known the women on the list handed to you, but did you all contact any of the women that you did know? You may have said that you did and I just don’t recall at the moment.

Teachers, women from church, and neighbors can be good resources as well as club members. I have found a few young women on our Alumnae Panhellenic lists whom I knew but did not realize they were interested in Greek Life. From there, I was able to contact them and offer assistance. If I didn't know them, we could usually network to find someone who did.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by aopirose

I am sorry, auburnmom2007. I don’t see where anyone asked either you or your daughter to lie. You may not have known the women on the list handed to you, but did you all contact any of the women that you did know? You may have said that you did and I just don’t recall at the moment.

Teachers, women from church, and neighbors can be good resources as well as club members. I have found a few young women on our Alumnae Panhellenic lists whom I knew but did not realize they were interested in Greek Life. From there, I was able to contact them and offer assistance.

Exactly. Plus there's a difference in my book between someone you've never met and someone who you may have just met. Alumnae Panhellenic volunteers expect to be contacted by PNM's they've never met. They take the time to talk either in person or on the phone. That's why these alums do this, to help out PNM's who don't know alums from every sorority represented on the campus. Another vital aspect of Alum Panhellenic's is to educate PNM's on what the Recruitment process is going to be like.

[SECMom]

Originally Posted by auburnmom2007

well when the information quoted that recs should come from people who know you, we didn't know anyone on the list we were given. i was not informed enough to know we were to lie! my daughter had an extensive list of club activities including leadership, service and a gpa of 4.25 now what? we know there are some from our area with a much lower gpa that got in with no more beauty or brains than H.
i asked for advice and have gotten a lot of information through this but along with that i am fed some .....i have not raised a liar and dont intend to promote it now. she has talent and beauty and we do not need anyone else to remind us of that this is what i will do... i will remind her of her strengths, her beauty and we will find peace in whatever she decides to do. thank you all

You should also know that on some GLO's rec forms there is a space to "check" that states whether the writer is personally acquainted with the girl or knows her "by reputation." Either option is valid and can result in a viable rec. I won't write a rec on a girl that I don't know at all, but I will write one on a girl with a solid resume, solid grades and solid reputation that I have checked out with people who DO know her.

[NUBlue&Blue]

Originally Posted by aopirose

I am sorry, auburnmom2007. I don’t see where anyone asked either you or your daughter to lie. You may not have known the women on the list handed to you, but did you all contact any of the women that you did know? You may have said that you did and I just don’t recall at the moment.

Teachers, women from church, and neighbors can be good resources as well as club members. I have found a few young women on our Alumnae Panhellenic lists whom I knew but did not realize they were interested in Greek Life. From there, I was able to contact them and offer assistance. If I didn't know them, we could usually network to find someone who did.

It's a lot of work. It takes a lot of time to get recs and find people who know your daughter. For 6 houses at Georgia Tech with my older daughter, it took me an entire summer to get everything together, and that's not even in the SEC. Yes, I'm sure your daughter is beautiful and smart. So is mine. So is everybody's--that's what we're getting at here...you have to do the work if you want it to happen and that's all there is to it. And even AFTER you do the work, sometimes it doesn't work out. Lesson one in real life.

[SECMom]

Originally Posted by Bamarox

Must not have been at Alabama

HEY ZILLINI...!

Can you explain this one once and for all? My daughter graduated from Bama and spent 4 years in a sorority and maintains that if a pnm went to three prefs she would be placed in one of those three whether she actually matched or not. Auburn does not do this, but Bama does, right?

[AnchorAlumna]

Originally Posted by Army Wife'79

I think you had a good analogy however, let's take it a step further. On your resume under "references" do you put people you have known for a nanosecond, or people who only read your resume? Of course not. You put people who know you well, know your skill sets and can vouch for your character.
That is why when my D went thru a SEC rush, she only had 3 recs. People who knew her well: an aunt, a boss (a veterinarian) and a neighbor who she knew for 3 years and did petsitting for. When a friends Mom found out she didn't have recs for all groups, she offered to secure them and WE TURNED HER DOWN. (you can clean the coffee off your monitor now). Frankly, not being "greek wise" we felt it unethical for total strangers to recommend my D when they didn't know if she was a psychopath or serial killer or whatever. I honestly thought the 4.45 gpa and resume would make her stand out because the websites talked about scholastics etc.

While I respect this as well as Zillini's decision to never rec anybody she doesn't know personally, the fact is that I don't know everybody in my city. And even among the 20 or so fellow sisters living here, we don't know everybody. That's why our alumnae panhellenic was formed in 1964. We host a spring tea, give our PNMs as much honest info as possible, and collect information forms from them.
Now, just because I have a resume doesn't mean I accept it without question. I take the resume and find somebody that you and I have in common. It may be a teacher I know at your school, or somebody in your church, or a neighbor, or a co-worker. I don't know everybody, but I do know enough people in town that I can find somebody we have in common who DOES know you. And if they think highly of you, and your activities and grades check out, then I will heartily recommend you. And I think that this recommendation will hold up just as well as one from someone who does know you personally. Of course, we would rather have those kinds of recommendations on everybody, but it's just not possible.
Going through with NO or FEW recommendations? Well, it's like this. When we have an opening at our shop, my husband does not place an ad in the newspaper or at monster.com. The first thing he does is ask our employees if they know somebody who needs a job. He interviews that person and then decides whether or not to hire him or her. But it was a recommendation from an employee that led to the next step.

[Fleur de Lis]

Originally Posted by Zillini

Exactly. Plus there's a difference in my book between someone you've never met and someone who you may have just met. Alumnae Panhellenic volunteers expect to be contacted by PNM's they've never met. They take the time to talk either in person or on the phone. That's why these alums do this, to help out PNM's who don't know alums from every sorority represented on the campus. Another vital aspect of Alum Panhellenic's is to educate PNM's on what the Recruitment process is going to be like.

When I was Reference Chair, I would receive literally hundreds of names from nearby universities begging for recommendations for the girls coming through. Usually, I could find another Kappa who knew the girl to write a recommendation for her. But because Atlanta is huge, sometimes all I could find was a connection (like a teacher or a student I knew personally). Based on their reputation and yearbook info for activities, I would write the recommendation and mark "information from a reliable source". Of course, I have never had the back-fire that Zillini describes, but I think it's alumnae's responsibility to help our chapters make informed decisions that include more than one 20 minute conversation.

[NUBlue&Blue]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna

While I respect this as well as Zillini's decision to never rec anybody she doesn't know personally, the fact is that I don't know everybody in my city. And even among the 20 or so fellow sisters living here, we don't know everybody. That's why our alumnae panhellenic was formed in 1964. We host a spring tea, give our PNMs as much honest info as possible, and collect information forms from them.
Now, just because I have a resume doesn't mean I accept it without question. I take the resume and find somebody that you and I have in common. It may be a teacher I know at your school, or somebody in your church, or a neighbor, or a co-worker. I don't know everybody, but I do know enough people in town that I can find somebody we have in common who DOES know you. And if they think highly of you, and your activities and grades check out, then I will heartily recommend you.

That's kind of how it works here. I have been a conduit for quite a few alums writing recs because I've had two girls in HS who've had friends in 4 different classes between the two of them, so I always honestly answer questions about what I know about them and always base my "yea or nay" on whether I would write a rec for them myself.