Big money

[KEPike]

Rudey,

I really wasn't trying to insult you. I was curious more than anything as to what your secret was for finding the time.

I joined GC really just to learn more about other Greeks and such, and I've definitely gotten that. In the process, if I can learn some of the finer points of Investment Banking, then I'm all for it. I just couldn't imagine working that much and then having the sanity to come on here and post let alone being able to walk straight. I guess I will never know!

To answer your original question though, I'd certainly like to be in the big money. However, the route I've taken probably won't allow that for a little while (I just received my MBA but am pursuing a career in Higher Education Administration). Really, until I receive a doctorate I won't be in the big money.

But, just like you, this requires patience and hard work. Both of which I have. And they are definitely needed in the industry that you are in. But if you can stick it out, more power to ya!

[texas*princess]

I think it would be great to have a job where "big money" was a part of it... a lot of people I know in the finance industry work hard and play hard like someone mentioned earlier... they work WAY over 80+ hours a week, but they know that they will pretty much be able to retire by the time they are 40, so they can pursue other interests in life. I think that is pretty awesome, but I don't think that kind of life is for me. I was offered a position with a finance company not too long ago, but turned it down because I know it's not something I could do while I was in college (and keep my sanity!), and I know for sure that I don't want to spend every waking moment working... I want to be able to enjoy my life

So that wouldn't make me happy, and I realize that for some people it does make them happy, and I think that's great My whole philosophy is if you don't like what you're doing, don't do it!! Find something you like to do and get paid for doing what you like!

[Lil' Hannah]

Here's a question for you Rudey - I've heard that in professions such as investment banking, that the "work hard, play hard" mentality is almost forced on you. I had a friend of a friend that was basically told that you weren't part of the team if you don't go to happy hour after work with the big bosses and get hammered. He said he didn't mind it occasionally or on the weekends and the like, but they felt pressure to go out and be part of the "coporate culture." Like if you don't follow the crowd and fit in then you won't go very far. True?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
Here's a question for you Rudey - I've heard that in professions such as investment banking, that the "work hard, play hard" mentality is almost forced on you. I had a friend of a friend that was basically told that you weren't part of the team if you don't go to happy hour after work with the big bosses and get hammered. He said he didn't mind it occasionally or on the weekends and the like, but they felt pressure to go out and be part of the "coporate culture." Like if you don't follow the crowd and fit in then you won't go very far. True?

To some extent. It's definitely like that at some places more than others. That's actually a really good question and requires me to think about it but I'll try and answer it. Go look at the website for any of the bulge bracket firms like Goldman Sachs or any of the sexy boutique shops like Gleacher or Lazard and look where they recruit. You'll notice they only recruit at certain schools, year after year. Why? Part of it is elitism, part of it is based on the alums that work for the firm, but more than anything it's about recruiting a certain character that fits your mold.

The best analogy I can think of is fraternity rush. To give you an example of how competitive it is to land these positions (not saying anyone that does is better than those that don't) I'll tell you what Credit Suisse First Boston (CSFB) told me. Usually they have between 40-100 spots available for each analyst class...this isn't just banking and can include sales and trading, wealth management, and other positions. About 5 years ago, half of the graduating class of Yale applied for a job with CSFB. I didn't bring up Yale to name drop and make it sound more impressive. I did it to put my next point in context. Yale is a good school, the students tend to be brighter than your average bear, and there are quite a few more schools like this with impressive students all applying for the same damn jobs. The bank got to choose from the best.

So these companies come to campus and present (rush), if you're good you might get an interview (bid), and then the three rounds of interviews are there to weed you out (pledge). They know you're smart. You've gotten into that school, gotten good grades, and they don't have to waste resources to figure out if you're smart. In fact most students brought in are not finance majors because finance isn't available at the schools they recruit at. These students can pick that up during their training rotations. So right now they're going on personality, looks, why you're talking so quietly or being annoying. Nobody wants to be at the office 120 hours a week with a tool. You simply have to fit the mold. The mold varies slightly from firm to firm, but the idea doesn't change.

So to answer your question after yapping so long, you are most likely already going to work hard, play hard without them even forcing it on you. Most people who go into this have played team sports and/or were greeks so they understand how important it is to value the team. Now yes there are points where you might feel it's controlling if somehow you got through without fitting their mold. You might be so independent that you hate eating with people, don't want to go to drop a couple hundred on booze at a cluh when it should cost 20 bucks, etc. Then you feel like something is being pressed on you. Your friend is trying to compensate for something he's doing wrong though. Your ability to pound drinks has no correlation to your advancement in the company. At the end of the day it's about money. The company hires people that work well together and can make money. So you have to realize the balance that exists there.

-Rudey
--Personally I can't stand people from certain firms because their firm's "mold" must be messed up or something.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by texas*princess
I think it would be great to have a job where "big money" was a part of it... a lot of people I know in the finance industry work hard and play hard like someone mentioned earlier... they work WAY over 80+ hours a week, but they know that they will pretty much be able to retire by the time they are 40, so they can pursue other interests in life. I think that is pretty awesome, but I don't think that kind of life is for me. I was offered a position with a finance company not too long ago, but turned it down because I know it's not something I could do while I was in college (and keep my sanity!), and I know for sure that I don't want to spend every waking moment working... I want to be able to enjoy my life

So that wouldn't make me happy, and I realize that for some people it does make them happy, and I think that's great My whole philosophy is if you don't like what you're doing, don't do it!! Find something you like to do and get paid for doing what you like!

80 is usually average and goes down with time at the firm. Very rarely are there firms that put you through the 120 hours a week every week. The only one I can think of is Lazard. Some analysts just love bragging about how many hours they work so the might exaggerate.

-Rudey
--Unless they're really messing up and have to work incredibly hard to meet their deadlines for some reason.

[DeltAlum]

Where would you say is the point where those long weeks back off some?

80 hours is not nearly as big a deal when you're 22 as when you're 45 and maybe trying to raise a family.

I suspect that 50-60 hours a week is not uncommon for anyone who is successful in pretty much any industry.

Later in life, though, I think that becomes a health issue for some people.

Thoughts?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Where would you say is the point where those long weeks back off some?

80 hours is not nearly as big a deal when you're 22 as when you're 45 and maybe trying to raise a family.

I suspect that 50-60 hours a week is not uncommon for anyone who is successful in pretty much any industry.

Later in life, though, I think that becomes a health issue for some people.

Thoughts?

There is no such thing as a free lunch ya know? This work isn't for people who want to just get by or be comfortable or have a nice nest egg. I never say I'm rich because I'm not, but it's good to know that I am making so much right out of college, earning every damn cent of it, and knowing everything I bought has been bought with my money...not with my parents' because most Americans still consider themselves dependent on their parents until 25 I think (somewhere around there is the official number).

So when you come straight out of school, they work you. This is pretty much only in banking though. They don't do this in consulting or trading. Consulting involves never having a home and always travelling and trading involves burning a hole in your stomach...never long hours. 80 hours out of school is about average. Your second year as an analyst that drops to 60-70. There are going to be busy times by the way. If M&A takes off and you're amazing at what you do in an industry (say transportation), they will bring you in (more than likely you will WANT to come in) and work on the deals until they clear. After 2 years you usually go get your MBA. An MBA is not some intensive course of study. I think more than anything, it's to rejuvenate you before going back as an associate to the bank if you still want to stay in banking. Banking teaches you how everything works so a lot of times the guy who knows the in's and out's of transport will be recruited to run a specific program at say GM. As an associate, I'd say 60 hours sounds about right and then the number should drop as you go higher. A lot of managing directors leave early on Fridays to take their helicopters to the Hamptons. That is a luxury that all analysts can only dream about.

Here's the funny thing though. Your body requires less sleep as you grow older so it's sorta like a cruel joke that you can work later (if you don't have a family) but now have the option not to. There are those that totally give their lives to this. I think Blackstone is like that. So many people would kill to join this firm it's ridiculous. They work 120 hours A LOT even when they're 45.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Here's the funny thing though. Your body requires less sleep as you grow older so it's sorta like a cruel joke that you can work later (if you don't have a family) but now have the option not to.

Yeah, but we need naps in the afternoon. Just kidding. Just curious because I don't think any amount of money would be worth 80-120 hours a week at my stage of life. Interesting thread.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Yeah, but we need naps in the afternoon. Just kidding. Just curious because I don't think any amount of money would be worth 80-120 hours a week at my stage of life. Interesting thread.

I'd rather just be playing golf and travelling at your stage in life and think if I work at it I will be.

Edited to Add:
You can have a well-balanced life but yes your career will have to be a priority as well. The senior bankers, VP's, and MD's all have families. They are responsible for getting work done and generating money for the firm, but when it's time to go home and see their family they will. This isn't like the movie Elf where the guy never sees his family. It can be but most people would rather not be that guy. And the way I look at it is a very early retirement for me so I can spend even more time with my family. For me it's important to get married and start a family and I know I'll sacrifice probably not seeing my children speak their first words, but when they can go to college without worrying about large debts hanging over their heads, they might forgive me. DeltAlum, I'm sure when your son got accepted at Northwestern (I think that's where it was) you had to deal with difficult issues over the cost. Every parent and student does at that age. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you didn't have to worry though?

-Rudey
--If my handicap doesn't drop by retirement, it was all for nothing.

[Lil' Hannah]

Originally posted by Rudey
Your friend is trying to compensate for something he's doing wrong though. Your ability to pound drinks has no correlation to your advancement in the company.

I think the guy goes out and plays along, he just isn't really comfortable with it. I have no idea how he's doing on his reviews, etc.

[Rudey]

I also have another good link that has info on these jobs. It's vault.com

You probably have heard of it but if you haven't it gives you a simple understanding of the firms and the work. The people on the vault message board are usually undergrads who are still competing for jobs so they're a bit cut throat.

Also just to stay sharp for any interview or just for the sake of being sharp on a daily basis, I'd recommend seriously thinking about every problematic situation in your life and coming up with some sort of methodology on how you would approach it now to solve the problem. With banking, you have to be confident. At the same time you have to realize you are nothing coming in and need to support those higher than you because you're only an analyst right now. I think a good part of what makes bankers confident is their ability to see a problem and not shying away from it but diving in.

For trading do math in your head. Go to the bathroom and do long division. I'm not kidding - it works and you can be confident with being under pressure when you have a few seconds to do those silly things in an interview.

For consulting, do the problem solving but be more creative with it. One of the old questions that nobody asks anymore is why manholes are round. So come up with creative answers and try to involve math in there somehow. Try to estimate how many people in the US have cable TV.

Edited to add a couple things for banking:

Generally what an investment bank does is generate large amounts of money for a client (because no commercial bank gives out billion dollar loans), take a company public and releasing IPOs, or helping companies merge (M&A). Those are the three product groups we concentrate on. When you raise capital you do it by creating bonds for a client to ensure the maximum benefit to them. I don't think M&A was a big business generator for banks until the likes of Bruce Wasserstein stepped up to bat.

The 80's were filled with incredibly innovative M&A deals...some of it just pure brutality with firms hiring private investigators to weaken the leadership of a company before helping their client in a bid for a hostile takeover. I guess that's what inspired movies like "wall street" (coincidentally one of the saddest movies ever). M&A for the last couple years has been down. The banks cut their M&A staff heavily because of that. Lately though M&A is picking up and banks are hiring larger analyst classes (good news for any of you undergrads).

And for banking and consulting you have to be able to present well and sell like none other. You're sitting with a top guy at a company, why the hell should he follow through with your recommendations? You have to show him your bank has incredible spreads that can help them. You have to talk about the talent on your team and what you can do. You're not some slow kid who graduated with a marketing degree and is wondering when he'll be able to use the term "brand management" ever. You are the MAN/WOMAN!!! Act like it.

Below are some simple news links on Reuters that are free where you can see just a glimpse of what's going on:

IPO News

News on Raising Capital through bonds

Mergers & Acquisitions News

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
DeltAlum, I'm sure when your son got accepted at Northwestern (I think that's where it was) you had to deal with difficult issues over the cost. Every parent and student does at that age. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you didn't have to worry though?

Yeah, it would have. We had that covered until my director level position was eliminated in a merger of two "corporate giants."

We were able to live pretty much the same as we had, but it bit deeply into savings, etc. Fortunately, we didn't have to invade retirement savings, stocks, 401k, etc. (The government has taken care of that for us recently, though) As it turned out, any of the four "highly selective" schools where he was accepted would have put us in serious debt, so your point is well taken.

Of course, at my age, finding a comparable job with comparable salary is a challenge. Age descrimination ain't fun. After working those very long weeks, nights, weekends and holidays in TV when I was younger, it doesn't sound like much fun anymore.

Thank goodness for National Merit.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Rudey
For me it's important to get married and start a family and I know I'll sacrifice probably not seeing my children speak their first words, but when they can go to college without worrying about large debts hanging over their heads, they might forgive me. DeltAlum, I'm sure when your son got accepted at Northwestern (I think that's where it was) you had to deal with difficult issues over the cost. Every parent and student does at that age. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you didn't have to worry though?

That's not always the case. My father was around for almost everything, never worked an 80 hour week in my memory (granted, he was a bit older than I plan to start a family), and he was able to pay for college and grad school for my sister and I--without any scholarships or financial aid.

You seriously don't have to live a fast paced lifestyle during your youth, and when your children are young, to assure a comfortable lifestyle for them.

[FHwku]

i want to work a minimal amount of hours for obscene amounts of money. i don't want to deal with customers, but i will deal with 1 client a week if i absolutely must. what would this wonderful job title be? i won't need bonuses, dental/health, or many other perks if the amount of money is really profane.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by FHwku
i want to work a minimal amount of hours for obscene amounts of money. i don't want to deal with customers, but i will deal with 1 client a week if i absolutely must. what would this wonderful job title be? i won't need bonuses, dental/health, or many other perks if the amount of money is really profane.

Own a subway.

-Rudey
--Just sit back and enjoy the profits.