Sprite Step-Off Update: ZTA and AKA to share 1st place

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Maybe not explicitly, but definately implicitly. And with it being a two way thing it weakens Rhoyaltempest's argument. And it further confirms my point that we all have a duty to contribute to our society as a whole, not merely our own subculture. Which as my chapter's community service committee chairman, is the platform of my administration, and is so expressed via the service projects I present to the chapter for a vote. My rationale is that we don't get our "feeding" merely from our subculture, but from our society as a collective.

Everyone knows this. No one was talking about only contributing to their own subculture or not being "fed" by the larger American culture. We're all learned adults who didn't get the bulk of our social norms and accomplishments from a shack located in the Black community.

I find it interesting that people often respond like you are when it is a Black people and white people discussion. When other racial and ethnic groupings (such as Native Americans, Asians, and Hispanics) talk about wanting to keep their traditions in house, people often say "that's great because you all have rich culture and traditions! It's great how you're able to contribute so greatly to our society and still maintain traditional ties!!!!!!" That undoubtedly has to do with differences in population sizes and the history of Blacks in America and Black-white racial dynamics.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Okay, replace "extremely" with "very."

Of course it is a two-way street, however, whites have more power to make all of this happen on a larger scale than minorities do. The things that Blacks try to be exclusive about (as evidenced in this thread) don't mean a damn thing in the larger scheme of things. Segregation is intentional and unintentional, and by choice and by force (i.e. most people don't build their own neighborhoods or choose the zoning for the schools).

At the end of the day, it won't be a "black vs. white" matter. You see whites in power, but that's not the core issue. I see your points, but I really really think you're fighting the wrong battle(s). Because once the events unfolding comes to a climax, you're going to see a lot of whites in the same boat as we are. That is why you don't see me always siding with "us" on racially charged issues. Because I know that ultimately, it will all be a very moot point.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

You see whites in power, but that's not the core issue. I see your points, but I really really think you're fighting the wrong battle(s). Because once the events unfolding comes to a climax, you're going to see a lot of whites in the same boat as we are. That is why you don't see me always siding with "us" on racially charged issues. Because I know that ultimately, it will all be a very moot point.

I'm not fighting any battle. We're typing.

Are you talking about the "end of days" or are you talking about people foregoing white privilege and group dynamics to align on class lines rather than race lines? The former will happen before the latter.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I find the turn of this discussion to assimilation and inclusiveness very interesting.

*warning, long rant*

While I did grow up under segregation, it was toward the end when attempts were made to integrate. Notice I did not say desegregate. IMO desegregation is the premise behind separate but equal. While integration plays itself out as together but unequal.

Desegregation would have meant the preservation of one's culture, yet with equal treatment and access to the greater society. We would be a delicious, colorful, healthy salad bowl, not a melting pot.

Integration is just another way to say "if you want what I have, then you must be just like me. But wait that is not entirely possible because your skin color will always be different. So we will just play along and throw you a few bones to keep you at bay."

Personally I always wanted desegregation, because I love being Black and all that entails--good and bad. Others wanted integration. Thus the contention.

In my job, the org (League of Women Voters Minneapolis) bemoans the fact that it can't seem to diversify its membership. But what I have seen is a lot of lip service (which I do think folx are sincere about,) but no real desire to put in the work to truly understand what other races need to be comfortable in the org. Why? Because it would take them out of their own comfort zone. That is where inclusiveness is failing in our society.

So no, I am not one to say WOW look how far we have come, considering the number of years it has taken. Because everyday I feel the frustration of how are we going to get where we really need to be. I do know it won't happen in my lifetime, regardless of the outcome of the last presidential election.

Why thank you for your "long" rant. I especially like the way you explained integration vs. desegregation. I am for desegregation also although that time has passed of course and I loved your "colorful salad" vs. melting pot explanation. I'll take a colorful salad any day.

Unfortunately this generation of African Americans (and I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't know who they are and really don't care to know.

In working with high school students and even the undergrads currently, I have discovered (and these are just my observations) that this generation is the "We are the world"/I just want to be like everyone else/I have no respect or regard for those that came before me (even though I'm standing on their shoulders)/ I don't really care to learn my history, that's the past/ it's not that serious (because nothing regarding the preservation of our culture is serious)...generation.

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I'm not fighting any battle. We're typing.

Are you talking about the "end of days" or are you talking about people foregoing white privilege and group dynamics to align on class lines rather than race lines? The former will happen before the latter.

The former will happen TWICE before the latter.

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

At the end of the day, it won't be a "black vs. white" matter. You see whites in power, but that's not the core issue. I see your points, but I really really think you're fighting the wrong battle(s). Because once the events unfolding comes to a climax, you're going to see a lot of whites in the same boat as we are. That is why you don't see me always siding with "us" on racially charged issues. Because I know that ultimately, it will all be a very moot point.

Whites in power isnt the core issue. White supremecy is the issue. Whites will never be in the same boat as we are. It's well known that if white folx get a cough black folx get Swine Flu and Pnemonia. I highly doubt that the fact that you think blacks and whites will one day be equal is the reason you sometimes side against blacks on racially charged issues. Because realistically if we're all going to be equals some day what harm does it do to side with your own?

I swear I've been hearing this same discussion of Assimilation vs. The Black Radical Tradition all over the net this week. And it has all been because of one step show. #irony

I didn't quote LadyGreek, but I fervently agree with her about desegregation. Intergration was not the best solution and it still isnt.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

The former will happen TWICE before the latter.


Whites in power isnt the core issue. White supremecy is the issue. Whites will never be in the same boat as we are. It's well known that if white folx get a cough black folx get Swine Flu and Pnemonia. I highly doubt that the fact that you think blacks and whites will one day be equal is the reason you sometimes side against blacks on racially charged issues. Because realistically if we're all going to be equals some day what harm does it do to side with your own?

I swear I've been hearing this same discussion of Assimilation vs. The Black Radical Tradition all over the net this week. And it has all been because of one step show. #irony

I didn't quote LadyGreek, but I fervently agree with her about desegregation. Intergration was not the best solution and it still isnt.

That's because a hot/controversial topic will bring up a whole lot of feelings and people who don't usually discuss these issues will take the opportunity to speak out. That's why I keep saying that the issues people have with the Sprite stepshow is not about the stepshow really at all.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Unfortunately this generation of African Americans (and I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't know who they are and really don't care to know.

In working with high school students and even the undergrads currently, I have discovered (and these are just my observations) that this generation is the "We are the world"/I just want to be like everyone else/I have no respect or regard for those that came before me (even though I'm standing on their shoulders)/ I don't really care to learn my history, that's the past/ it's not that serious (because nothing regarding the preservation of our culture is serious)...generation.

I have seen this as well. Several of my Black students went so far as to say that they thought that celebrating Black History month was stupid because there was no white History month. Mind you they were taking on this argument from their fellow white classmates. so the Black students had begun cosigning on that argument saying that they weren't interested in learning about their history because "that's old stuff."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Unfortunately this generation of African Americans (and I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't know who they are and really don't care to know.

In working with high school students and even the undergrads currently, I have discovered (and these are just my observations) that this generation is the "We are the world"/I just want to be like everyone else/I have no respect or regard for those that came before me (even though I'm standing on their shoulders)/ I don't really care to learn my history, that's the past/ it's not that serious (because nothing regarding the preservation of our culture is serious)...generation.

I believe the ones who don't know and don't care ARE the exceptions (just like crime ridden neighborhoods tend to be overrun by the minority of the residents or visitors who are criminal).

These exceptions are clueless and blindly "we are the world-ish" because parents and school officials have FAILED them. This is why a strong family unit where kids are challenged to build knowledge and understanding is important, even if kids refuse to read those Black History books parents insist on buying. The way info is disseminated and received changes with each generation so adults need to get with the program.

Every generation calls the generations after it "the lost ones." It's just like how BGLOers who get a few years under their belt talk about "the confused youngins." That has always made REAL old school folks like ladygreek chuckle.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

That's because a hot/controversial topic will bring up a whole lot of feelings and people who don't usually discuss these issues will take the opportunity to speak out. That's why I keep saying that the issues people have with the Sprite stepshow is not about the stepshow really at all.

For me, I think the core issue is that we too often assume the role of being a victim (always coming up with excuses, placing blame, and being in denial), instead of being a victor (taking ownership for our actions, being held accountable to such actions, and being made responsible for such actions). The poor sportsmanship expressed resulting from the Step Off (and even this discussion to some degree) makes this assertion very clear.

Personally, I am tired of being associated with those always wanting to be a victim. I'm seeking to be a victor, and I will associate with those who are victors, even if that means going against the grain. I wonder if that is why the Millenial generation has the so-called "we are the world" mentality. I wonder if Rhoyal had inquired to the students for exactly why they held the belief system that they do/did. We've come quite a ways from where we were 50-60 years ago, and people still aren't grateful for what progress has been made. That bothers me.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

For me, I think the core issue is that we too often assume the role of being a victim (always coming up with excuses, placing blame, and being in denial), instead of being a victor (taking ownership for our actions, being held accountable to such actions, and being made responsible for such actions). The poor sportsmanship expressed resulting from the Step Off (and even this discussion to some degree) makes this assertion very clear.

Personally, I am tired of being associated with those always wanting to be a victim. I'm seeking to be a victor, and I will associate with those who are victors, even if that means going against the grain. I wonder if that is why the Millenial generation has the so-called "we are the world" mentality. I wonder if Rhoyal had inquired to the students for exactly why they held the belief system that they do/did. We've come quite a ways from where we were 50-60 years ago, and people still aren't grateful for what progress has been made. That bothers me.

Grateful? We should not have had to go through it in the first place.

[LatinaAlumna]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

When other racial and ethnic groupings (such as Native Americans, Asians, and Hispanics) talk about wanting to keep their traditions in house, people often say "that's great because you all have rich culture and traditions! It's great how you're able to contribute so greatly to our society and still maintain traditional ties!!!!!!"

In my experience, it's more like they tell us to "Take that -ish back to Mexico!" ORRRR they modify aspects of our culture to meet their own needs/interests/tastes (which can account for Taco Bell and "Cinco-de-Drinko" festivities, among other things).

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by LatinaAlumna

In my experience, it's more like they tell us to "Take that -ish back to Mexico!" ORRRR they modify aspects of our culture to meet their own needs/interests/tastes (which can account for Taco Bell and "Cinco-de-Drinko" festivities, among other things).

Minnesota has Reservations, thus the NA culture is well preserved here. But these Reses are in rural Minnesota and when NA who live in the Twins try to replicate their culture here they are often met with disdain, UNLESS it is the token attempt to show diversity. For example when having an event a company, nonprofit, or school may invite NAs to conduct a pow wow, or perform native dances, etc.

Same with Hispanics/Latinos, S.E. Asians, etc. Funny though, they haven't asked AA to step. Maybe that will change now that Sprite has "discovered" it.

[LatinaAlumna]

^That reminds me of a Greek President's Council meeting I was at as an undergrad, where the NPHC groups were invited to "come step" at a supposed "all-greek" event. I recall the Sigma Gamma Rho President stating, "If you want us to be part of it, we need to be part of ALL of it--that means the planning, the workshops, the games, etc. You don't ask us to just come put on a show then leave."

And that never happened again!!

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

For me, I think the core issue is that we too often assume the role of being a victim (always coming up with excuses, placing blame, and being in denial), instead of being a victor (taking ownership for our actions, being held accountable to such actions, and being made responsible for such actions). The poor sportsmanship expressed resulting from the Step Off (and even this discussion to some degree) makes this assertion very clear.

Personally, I am tired of being associated with those always wanting to be a victim. I'm seeking to be a victor, and I will associate with those who are victors, even if that means going against the grain. I wonder if that is why the Millenial generation has the so-called "we are the world" mentality. I wonder if Rhoyal had inquired to the students for exactly why they held the belief system that they do/did. We've come quite a ways from where we were 50-60 years ago, and people still aren't grateful for what progress has been made. That bothers me.

I'm pretty sure your comments are appropriate for some argument related to the topic of Black culture today but IMHO your comments here just do not fit this discussion. I try to look at things from all sides whether I agree with things or not but I think you are so far on one side and so unwilling to see other sides, that you can't recognize when valid and legitimate points are made on other sides, points that have nothing to do with anyone playing the victim.

While I'm sure that some of the Sprite step off feelings (as displayed on other sites) stem from an "inherited" feeling of victimization, I certainly wouldn't conclude that those involved in this discussion here on gc (as well as many on other sites) are on some "victim" stuff because I'm certainly not. I'm very clear and very aware of this topic of victimization in the black community and the kind of person I am just doesn't allow me to play the victim in any way as I strive for excellence in everything that I do. My entire educational career (from grade school on) has been rooted in my experience at both predominately white and black learning institutions. Playing the victim is certainly not the way I excelled in both situations.

As for the kids that I work with from the inner city, they feel the way they do because they don't know anything about their heritage and don't know how beautiful they are. It's not their fault and I'm not blaming them. They are not being taught at home to love themselves and that's obvious by the things they say and do and the little value they place on their education.

Again, while I understand the whole "victim" argument, it is not appropriate in this discussion. We can certainly be concerned about the issues we're raising, disagree with you, and not be playing the victim.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Grateful? We should not have had to go through it in the first place.

Granted, but that's a moot point.