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  #31  
Old 06-19-2020, 09:27 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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I wish you would forward this to the NPC.
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  #32  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:03 PM
DGalumna DGalumna is offline
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I made an account just to comment on this.

I am a relatively young alumna (late 20s). I come from a mid-sized chapter (~150) at a well regarded private school. I have been active in my city’s alumnae group and have done some work with undergraduate chapters nearby. That is to say, I'm not someone who just left after my college years and have been an involved member of our sisterhood in a number of capacities.

I support this decision. There are a variety of barriers to entry for women to join a sorority. Some of them are wider NPC problems like the rising cost of dues and other costs associated with sorority membership. DG cannot do anything about that. What they can do is remove a policy that at the end of the day is mainly benefitting upper-class (white) women whose mothers and grandmothers had the opportunity to attend college and the ability to join a sorority. We can argue about what that privilege means and who has or doesn’t have privilege (which is what a lot of the comments on Facebook have devolved to) but that doesn’t change the fact that the legacy policy can and likely has prevented wonderful women from joining our sisterhood that we absolutely could have benefited from. If PNM A is a 4.0 student who also runs track and is an engineering major with a glowing personality and PNM B has fine grades but minimal involvement on campus and a personality that clashes with the sisterhood BUT is a legacy, don't we want to give our collegians the opportunity to choose A as often as befits their membership selection? And legacies do not suddenly disappear. A woman whose mother, grandmother, or sister is a DG is still considered a legacy. What changes is the requirements to look at them differently than any other woman who wants to join our sisterhood. She will still be welcomed as someone with a special connection to DG and her legacy relative is still welcome at initiation and any other events that they may host. The celebration just formally starts on bid day rather than before.

To be frank, the comments that have turned truly nasty on the Facebook thread in particular have come from older alumnae demanding respect that they are not giving in return. The majority of the women for the change (again, mostly younger alumnae) have kindly, politely, and gently tried to explain where the policy change has come from and how exactly it relates to privileges they may not have realized. Instead they have been met with condescension, coded language and in some cases overt transphobia that had no place in the conversation. This is not an ageist thing and there are still many older alumnae who have actively engaged in debate in a way that is productive and polite. But the majority of women coming out swinging, accusing DG of pandering and belittling their own sisters, are those who have not been in college for a long time and are not as close to the current members and DG chapters. They have spoken down to their sisters, denied their experiences, and have in effect formed cliques that have ganged up on other women and used "laughing" reactions to some very serious posts. I believe someone quoted our Article II ("The objects of this Fraternity shall be to foster high ideals of friendship among women, to promote their educational and cultural interests, to create in them a true sense of social responsibility, and to develop in them the best qualities of character") to one of the woman and she replied " it’s ok, I’m a grown up that is not concerned with whatever article 2 is." These younger women coming out in force for the policy change may not have legacies of their own but they are the ones dealing with it day-to-day. They are the ones seeing its effects during recruitment (and in many cases being yelled at by women twice their age because her daughter is not a fit for DG at XYZ university the way she may have been 25 years ago at DG at ABC college) and beyond.

The reality is that our beloved Fraternity is going through changes that come with today’s world. What you deem as “wokeness” is not sudden and rather part of the last few years of Delta Gamma actively re-examining its history and contextualizing what it did wrong and how it now wants to do right. I would like to point you to the Winter 2019 Anchora cover article here which was a huge step in understanding our history and what that means for us moving forward. It's something many of the women who have been *chosen* for membership in Delta Gamma are passionate about and work for in line with our values. This is one piece in a long process and I doubt it ends here for us or for the rest of sorority life (DG noted in a comment that the NPC has requested that all members examine ways to become more inclusive organizations). I understand that change can be hard but many of the younger alumnae and collegians have been doing as much of the work as we can within the institution to push for more inclusivity within DG and we’re grateful to see it be taken seriously. This isn’t pandering or virtue signaling but instead shows a commitment by DG to work to bring new members from all walks of life into our sisterhood.

I’m young and I accept that. I am not a mother yet and don’t know if I will have a daughter (though I hope!). I’m sure that would color my feelings, but not enough to change my view. I will lovingly raise my imaginary future daughter with the values DG and I share. I hope that when the time comes to join a sorority she and DG are a perfect fit and she will receive an invitation to join based on her own merit and character. She will still be a legacy to Delta Gamma and if she joins I will probably cry when I pin her with our shared anchor badge. The only thing that changes is that she and I will both know DG chose her for her and not because twenty-something years ago it also chose me.

Last edited by DGalumna; 06-19-2020 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Random *s got added throughout the post?? Had to delete.
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  #33  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:16 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGalumna View Post
I made an account just to comment on this.

I am a relatively young alumna (late 20s). I come from a mid-sized chapter (~150) at a well regarded private school. I have been active in my city’s alumnae group and have done some work with undergraduate chapters nearby. That is to say, I'm not someone who just left after my college years and have been an involved member of our sisterhood in a number of capacities.

I support this decision. There are a variety of barriers to entry for women to join a sorority. Some of them are wider NPC problems like the rising cost of dues and other costs associated with sorority membership. DG cannot do anything about that. What they can do is remove a policy that at the end of the day is mainly benefitting upper-class (white) women whose mothers and grandmothers had the opportunity to attend college and the ability to join a sorority. We can argue about what that privilege means and who has or doesn’t have privilege (which is what a lot of the comments on Facebook have devolved to) but that doesn’t change the fact that the legacy policy can and likely has prevented wonderful women from joining our sisterhood that we absolutely could have benefited from. If PNM A is a 4.0 student who also runs track and is an engineering major with a glowing personality and PNM B has fine grades but minimal involvement on campus and a personality that clashes with the sisterhood BUT is a legacy, don't we want to give our collegians the opportunity to choose A as often as befits their membership selection? And legacies do not suddenly disappear. A woman whose mother, grandmother, or sister is a DG is still considered a legacy. What changes is the requirements to look at them differently than any other woman who wants to join our sisterhood. She will still be welcomed as someone with a special connection to DG and her legacy relative is still welcome at initiation and any other events that they may host. The celebration just formally starts on bid day rather than before.

To be frank, the comments that have turned truly nasty on the Facebook thread in particular have come from older alumnae demanding respect that they are not giving in return. The majority of the women for the change (again, mostly younger alumnae) have kindly, politely, and gently tried to explain where the policy change has come from and how exactly it relates to privileges they may not have realized. Instead they have been met with condescension, coded language and in some cases overt transphobia that had no place in the conversation. This is not an ageist thing and there are still many older alumnae who have actively engaged in debate in a way that is productive and polite. But the majority of women coming out swinging, accusing DG of pandering and belittling their own sisters, are those who have not been in college for a long time and are not as close to the current members and DG chapters. They have spoken down to their sisters, denied their experiences, and have in effect formed cliques that have ganged up on other women and used "laughing" reactions to some very serious posts. I believe someone quoted our Article II ("The objects of this Fraternity shall be to foster high ideals of friendship among women, to promote their educational and cultural interests, to create in them a true sense of social responsibility, and to develop in them the best qualities of character") to one of the woman and she replied " it’s ok, I’m a grown up that is not concerned with whatever article 2 is." These younger women coming out in force for the policy change may not have legacies of their own but they are the ones dealing with it day-to-day. They are the ones seeing its effects during recruitment (and in many cases being yelled at by women twice their age because her daughter is not a fit for DG at XYZ university the way she may have been 25 years ago at DG at ABC college) and beyond.

The reality is that our beloved Fraternity is going through changes that come with today’s world. What you deem as “wokeness” is not sudden and rather part of the last few years of Delta Gamma actively re-examining its history and contextualizing what it did wrong and how it now wants to do right. I would like to point you to the Winter 2019 Anchora cover article here which was a huge step in understanding our history and what that means for us moving forward. It's something many of the women who have been *chosen* for membership in Delta Gamma are passionate about and work for in line with our values. This is one piece in a long process and I doubt it ends here for us or for the rest of sorority life (DG noted in a comment that the NPC has requested that all members examine ways to become more inclusive organizations). I understand that change can be hard but many of the younger alumnae and collegians have been doing as much of the work as we can within the institution to push for more inclusivity within DG and we’re grateful to see it be taken seriously. This isn’t pandering or virtue signaling but instead shows a commitment by DG to work to bring new members from all walks of life into our sisterhood.

I’m young and I accept that. I am not a mother yet and don’t know if I will have a daughter (though I hope!). I’m sure that would color my feelings, but not enough to change my view. I will lovingly raise my imaginary future daughter with the values DG and I share. I hope that when the time comes to join a sorority she and DG are a perfect fit and she will receive an invitation to join based on her own merit and character. She will still be a legacy to Delta Gamma and if she joins I will probably cry when I pin her with our shared anchor badge. The only thing that changes is that she and I will both know DG chose her for her and not because twenty-something years ago it also chose me.
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  #34  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:25 PM
TriDeltaSallie TriDeltaSallie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I wish you would forward this to the NPC.
Here is the video I'm referencing. It's the first of three videos. The initial context is the Southern Baptist Convention because of a event that brought it about, but it goes far beyond that into academia, private association groups, etc.

Substitute the name of a sorority or NPC into the discussion and you'll see why I said what I said. I don't doubt the good intentions of anyone involved with DG (or any other group that decides to go this way). But the good intentions will probably not keep any sorority from experiencing the same fallout that has played out over and over again as they discuss at length.

https://youtu.be/YDFL3xwEEG8
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  #35  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:34 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGalumna View Post
I made an account just to comment on this.

I support this decision. There are a variety of barriers to entry for women to join a sorority. Some of them are wider NPC problems like the rising cost of dues and other costs associated with sorority membership. DG cannot do anything about that. What they can do is remove a policy that at the end of the day is mainly benefitting upper-class (white) women whose mothers and grandmothers had the opportunity to attend college and the ability to join a sorority. We can argue about what that privilege means and who has or doesn’t have privilege (which is what a lot of the comments on Facebook have devolved to) but that doesn’t change the fact that the legacy policy can and likely has prevented wonderful women from joining our sisterhood that we absolutely could have benefited from. If PNM A is a 4.0 student who also runs track and is an engineering major with a glowing personality and PNM B has fine grades but minimal involvement on campus and a personality that clashes with the sisterhood BUT is a legacy, don't we want to give our collegians the opportunity to choose A as often as befits their membership selection? And legacies do not suddenly disappear. A woman whose mother, grandmother, or sister is a DG is still considered a legacy. What changes is the requirements to look at them differently than any other woman who wants to join our sisterhood. She will still be welcomed as someone with a special connection to DG and her legacy relative is still welcome at initiation and any other events that they may host. The celebration just formally starts on bid day rather than before.

To be frank, the comments that have turned truly nasty on the Facebook thread in particular have come from older alumnae demanding respect that they are not giving in return. The majority of the women for the change (again, mostly younger alumnae) have kindly, politely, and gently tried to explain where the policy change has come from and how exactly it relates to privileges they may not have realized.
Some of us were counting the minutes until an alum came on and spouted the party line. The older alums were not treated with respect. I saw several jeering, disrespectful posts aimed at them. Because of this, DG will certainly face more of a negative response than if these alums had truly received some respect. There was no kindness or gentleness.

Maybe you don't get it because you're young and not a mother. Why do you think the older women were upset? They have raised or are raising children who mean the world to them. DG meant the world to them too. But--these women will almost certainly dump DG if DG dumps their daughters. And then some self-righteous jerks will simply comment that DG must not have meant much to them.

Your 2 PNMs above? Of course, a chapter will chose PNM A, legacy or not. That has nothing to do with it. What moms were hoping for is for their daughters to be on the first bid list if they went to prefs. Women don't get many perks as alums but that was one that many alums counted on. This was done without a Convention or membership vote. Some small group decided to foist this on the membership and sneer at the members who didn't like it.

Maybe the next surprise from your HQ will go against what you think is right and let's see how you like that--
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:45 PM
DGalumna DGalumna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Some of us were counting the minutes until an alum came on and spouted the party line. The older alums were not treated with respect. I saw several jeering, disrespectful posts aimed at them. Because of this, DG will certainly face more of a negative response than if these alums had truly received some respect. There was no kindness or gentleness.

Maybe you don't get it because you're young and not a mother. Why do you think the older women were upset? They have raised or are raising children who mean the world to them. DG meant the world to them too. But--these women will almost certainly dump DG if DG dumps their daughters. And then some self-righteous jerks will simply comment that DG must not have meant much to them.

Your 2 PNMs above? Of course, a chapter will chose PNM A, legacy or not. That has nothing to do with it. What moms were hoping for is for their daughters to be on the first bid list if they went to prefs. Women don't get many perks as alums but that was one that many alums counted on. This was done without a Convention or membership vote. Some small group decided to foist this on the membership and sneer at the members who didn't like it.

Maybe the next surprise from your HQ will go against what you think is right and let's see how you like that--
Why do you assume that I'm "spouting the party line" and not because I truly believe this is a step forward for an organization I've dedicated hours and hours of time and love to? That sort of condescension and disbelief that someone could truly agree with and appreciate the changes that have been made is not beneficial to any conversation whether on social media or on here. The fact that you were "counting the minutes" until someone came on here in support of the decision feels more like a lion waiting to pounce on someone rather than an honest wish to engage in measured discussion.

The fact is that DG's Executive Offices (EO*) has made plenty of decisions while I've been a member for almost 10 years that I do not agree with but what it hasn't done is change my feelings for the organization. Of course I understand that women are upset! It's a sudden and harsh change and I agree that the rollout of it in a public post rather than an email to all sisters before a social media announcement did little to help people feel that this decision was not made lightly. I agree that there were certainly some older alumnae who were not treated with respect and that is not in any way okay. Neither is their condescension to younger women as well. But a lot of responses have been engaging debates that may be heated but do not put down one another or throw the conversation off the rails.

I'm not discounting their feelings whatsoever and to do so is putting words in my mouth. Rather I am trying to respectfully share my opinion and why I am for the changes my organization is making. I've noted that I'm sure my feelings would be touched if I was a mother with a DG daughter and my acknowledgement of that seems to be missed. All I want to do is add the thoughts of someone who is actually a sister and actually relatively impressed by what the Fraternity is doing. Sorry if that's not what you're looking for here and only want an echo chamber for your own thoughts.
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:47 PM
Cheerio Cheerio is offline
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I think that to some degree whether you think this concept is awful or great also has to do with your collegiate experience and where your chapter was in the pecking order of your campus and within your national organization. Also whether it concerns a legacy to the siame chapter.
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I just hope this gets publicized REALLY REALLY A LOT so the other sororities take it into account and don’t all drop a girl because they assume she’ll be high up enough on her legacy chapter’s list.
I believe the concept of Delta Gamma eliminating a sorority legacy policy that worked for generations, but is now found too confining, has merit. NPC groups have obviously evolved their Membership Selection Methods in many ways since 1851; how is this decision such a drag? Is DG really sacrificing a high tradition of legacy membership for something much worse? Not in my opinion.
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  #38  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:49 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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To DGalumna:

No, we would rather have someone here who will actually be affected by the decision. At this point, you won't.

And we expected someone to come over here and expound and try to do damage control because of how horribly some alums were being treated on Facebook. We saw it, having been alerted by some horrified DG alums--no one was treated with respect or gentleness--and no doubt, some will never wear the anchor again.
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  #39  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:57 PM
DGalumna DGalumna is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
To DGalumna:

No, we would rather have someone here who will actually be affected by the decision. At this point, you won't.

And we expected someone to come over here and expound and try to do damage control because of how horribly some alums were being treated on Facebook. We saw it, having been alerted by some horrified DG alums--no one was treated with respect or gentleness--and no doubt, some will never wear the anchor again.
Again, I acknowledge that some of the posts and comments truly went off the rails but it was not only young alumnae and not only older alumnae as well. No one should be saying nasty things to another sister and I'm not excusing any of them and I'm frustrated and hurt that some of them may very well abandon DG. I don't think anyone thinks that's beneficial to our sisterhood whether internally or externally.

There are still plenty of alumnae, young and old, who have commented in support of this decision. I'm not "doing damage control". I am here because the voice of one of the younger groups of women who are excited to see where DG goes seemed lacking and I wanted to share my thoughts. Clearly this is not wanted here. As for being affected, of course I'm still affected. I was the first woman in my extended family to join Greek life and was looking forward to the day my daughter could share my sisterhood. It's still a possibility! It's just not coming with the same expectations.

But what would I know? I'm obviously just a silly young woman who doesn't understand how the world works anyways. I hope that one of the many alumnae who do have daughters immediately affected by this and were in support of the change thinks to come over here and comment. I hope her reception will be better.
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  #40  
Old 06-20-2020, 12:00 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by DGalumna View Post
But what would I know? I'm obviously just a silly young woman who doesn't understand how the world works anyways.
yeah...
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  #41  
Old 06-20-2020, 12:22 AM
TriDeltaSallie TriDeltaSallie is offline
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So I signed into my husband's FB account so I could see the discussion for myself.

This stood out to me:

Quote:
Delta Gamma Fraternity
Hi Roselle, something to recognize is that sororities were built during a time in our country’s history when women were just being invited to attend colleges and universities for the first time. While this was a big step, it was not inclusive of all women and was limited to those who were White at most colleges and universities. Because of that, the rituals, practices and traditions of sororities were built upon white ideals and perspectives.
I more than stand by my original comments re: the content in the video I shared. It's freaky to read all of this DG stuff after watching that video.

And, yes, it will also eventually become changing grade expectations because grades are a barrier and so on. That's the way it works.

Eventually, new members won't even experience the same ritual in our organizations. Those, too, will be completely changed and rewritten to make them "acceptable" and devoid of "white ideals and perspectives." At that point, are we even members of the same organization? The ritual and ideals are the things that bind us together through generations. If that's gone, then what's left? A sweatshirt and a bumper sticker in certain colors?

The thought that keeps going through my mind is that if I had something like stock in NPC or individual sororities, I'd be calling my broker to sell.
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  #42  
Old 06-20-2020, 12:32 AM
GoldenAnchor GoldenAnchor is offline
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Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie View Post
Eventually, new members won't even experience the same ritual in our organizations. Those, too, will be completely changed and rewritten to make them "acceptable" and devoid of "white ideals and perspectives." At that point, are we even members of the same organization? The ritual and ideals are the things that bind us together through generations. If that's gone, then what's left? A sweatshirt and a bumper sticker in certain colors?

The thought that keeps going through my mind is that if I had something like stock in NPC or individual sororities, I'd be calling my broker to sell.
Wow. That’s a jump. I’m shocked at how many people here are convinced this singular choice will be the downfall of all NPC groups. Have a little faith. Legacies still exist, even in DG, it’s not like that bond is being completely erased.
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  #43  
Old 06-20-2020, 12:35 AM
GoldenAnchor GoldenAnchor is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
To DGalumna:

No, we would rather have someone here who will actually be affected by the decision. At this point, you won't.
How on earth does this not affect a young alumna? Because she doesn’t currently have a daughter this decision doesn’t affect her and therefore her opinion is not valid? Wow.
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  #44  
Old 06-20-2020, 02:28 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Someone (an older alumna, I believe) brought up a great point in that FB thread: DG is one of the sororities that requires a recommendation for a rushee to receive a bid. Aren’t recommendations the thing that first-generation NPC Greeks seem to struggle with the most, and which have the largest amount of questionable info around them if you haven’t grown up with the Greek system? Wouldn’t it make more sense to get rid of the must-have rec requirement instead of upsetting tons of alumnae? (It was brought up that this would need to be voted on by the convention body.)

TDS: I’m guessing many groups have already altered ritual slightly to make changes like pledge—> new member and the like.
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  #45  
Old 06-20-2020, 02:40 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Some of us were counting the minutes until an alum came on and spouted the party line. The older alums were not treated with respect. I saw several jeering, disrespectful posts aimed at them. Because of this, DG will certainly face more of a negative response than if these alums had truly received some respect. There was no kindness or gentleness.
Yes, I think we are both thinking of one poster in particular who was pretty insufferable. Someone has obviously never heard that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. As for the transphobic posts, this was obviously that person’s particular axe to grind and she would bring it up during a discussion of whether Poodles or Collies are the more easily trainable breed. The best thing to do with people like that is report and ignore.
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