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  #16  
Old 07-31-2020, 08:35 AM
FSUZeta FSUZeta is offline
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Where does it all stop? When does it all stop? Who's to say that the first NPC/IFC chapters to do hand signs, did not do it out of admiration of the NPHC hand signs? Might Alpha Phi, which was founded before AKA decide that AKA can no longer use ivy? Could Sigma Kappa, which was founded before Zeta Phi Beta and Phi Beta Sigma, demand that the these two organizations cease and desist using the dove? After the persistence and camaraderie displayed by Greek organizations to keep our organizations single-sex and stopping discrimination against Greek members (Harvard) are we just going to cannibalize ourselves
?

As to step shows, I think it was Sen who once explained the significance of stepping to the NPHC. Has this been explained on all campuses that have NPC and IFC chapters? I would hope that if all were educated, NPC and IFC would refrain from stepping or hosting step show competitions. But I think the path is education, not decimation.
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  #17  
Old 07-31-2020, 09:53 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by FSUZeta View Post
Where does it all stop? When does it all stop? Who's to say that the first NPC/IFC chapters to do hand signs, did not do it out of admiration of the NPHC hand signs? Might Alpha Phi, which was founded before AKA decide that AKA can no longer use ivy? Could Sigma Kappa, which was founded before Zeta Phi Beta and Phi Beta Sigma, demand that the these two organizations cease and desist using the dove? After the persistence and camaraderie displayed by Greek organizations to keep our organizations single-sex and stopping discrimination against Greek members (Harvard) are we just going to cannibalize ourselves
?

As to step shows, I think it was Sen who once explained the significance of stepping to the NPHC. Has this been explained on all campuses that have NPC and IFC chapters? I would hope that if all were educated, NPC and IFC would refrain from stepping or hosting step show competitions. But I think the path is education, not decimation.
Why isn't a resistance to cultural apporpriation just plain intrinsic?

I love watching haka. I do not do haka simply because it reminds me of stepping.

I love watching dabke. I do not do dabke simply because it reminds me of strolling.

*We* are not cannibalizing ourselves. NPHC organizations are not on the menu.
NPHC members have been educating people on GC for twenty years. At some point you need to take the education back to your own organizations.

Phi Mu is doing what they feel is correct. It's bizarre that such a course correction is the hill some of you are choosing to die on.

My intern many years ago was an Auburn Phi Mu. We discussed Greek life openly and honestly. She said her chapter would never admit a black girl (not that there were that many rushing). I asked why. She said because she knew they'd be miserable. In her mind, the "liberal" wing of the house was saving the black girls from the racist wing of the house. In fact, she was just as complicit because the outcome was the same. I think she knows that now, in her maturity and wisdom which comes with age.

In the decade or so since this moment, maybe things got better on that campus and in that house. As white people awaken to the many, many facets of racism that they've been complicit in, they're taking a lot of microsteps that, to some, seem like over-correction. In reality, it's just the conversations you all should have been listening to years ago.

There is such a thing as retrospective justice, when a group of people realize that a wrong which has occured is so egregious that it impacts a society itself. There will be many small corrections leading up to major policy changes. You grab the low-hanging fruit and then you keep climbing.
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  #18  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:15 AM
andthen andthen is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post

My intern many years ago was an Auburn Phi Mu. We discussed Greek life openly and honestly. She said her chapter would never admit a black girl (not that there were that many rushing). I asked why. She said because she knew they'd be miserable. In her mind, the "liberal" wing of the house was saving the black girls from the racist wing of the house. In fact, she was just as complicit because the outcome was the same. I think she knows that now, in her maturity and wisdom which comes with age.

In the decade or so since this moment, maybe things got better on that campus and in that house. As white people awaken to the many, many facets of racism that they've been complicit in, they're taking a lot of microsteps that, to some, seem like over-correction. In reality, it's just the conversations you all should have been listening to years ago.

There is such a thing as retrospective justice, when a group of people realize that a wrong which has occured is so egregious that it impacts a society itself. There will be many small corrections leading up to major policy changes. You grab the low-hanging fruit and then you keep climbing.
The part in bold is so spot on!! And I think people need to have a bit more awareness that even with good intention, you still very well maybe contributing to the problem.

And I agree with you as well, sometimes small increments of change can ultimately result in a larger impact.
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  #19  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:56 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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Several black women have pledged NPCs at Auburn since that time but it seems that most prefer NPHCs. The same goes at Arkansas; I'm told that only 2.5% of the undergrad population is black women and that most of those prefer to pledge the NPHCs.

It's very frustrating to be totally open to pledging women of color (and even being pressured to do so by outside sources) when there really aren't that many who are interested, due to their family preferences.
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  #20  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:01 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is offline
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Originally Posted by FSUZeta View Post
Where does it all stop? When does it all stop? Who's to say that the first NPC/IFC chapters to do hand signs, did not do it out of admiration of the NPHC hand signs? Might Alpha Phi, which was founded before AKA decide that AKA can no longer use ivy? Could Sigma Kappa, which was founded before Zeta Phi Beta and Phi Beta Sigma, demand that the these two organizations cease and desist using the dove? After the persistence and camaraderie displayed by Greek organizations to keep our organizations single-sex and stopping discrimination against Greek members (Harvard) are we just going to cannibalize ourselves
?

As to step shows, I think it was Sen who once explained the significance of stepping to the NPHC. Has this been explained on all campuses that have NPC and IFC chapters? I would hope that if all were educated, NPC and IFC would refrain from stepping or hosting step show competitions. But I think the path is education, not decimation.
I think those of us who post on GC are vastly different in knowledge than those who don’t. I barely knew anything about the NPC while I was in college. I had classes with individual girls and they were nice, but I knew nothing about recruitment, events, philanthropies or even that there were alumnae chapters until I logged in here. With that benefit of knowledge, I see things differently because I am informed.

The general population of membership in all the councils are not having these conversations and still do not know much about each other. With the lack of interaction and communication, something can go from being a coincidence or an honest mistake, to being perceived as appropriation or disrespect. A person that knows nothing about the NPC, has never seen nor interacted with an Alpha Phi is going to perceive the sign to be something that was stolen, because they see AKA’s of all ages throw the sign regularly.

The NPHC organizations have been around for 114 years and we have plenty of “firsts.” The justification that anyone could decide what we do based on them being founded first is a bit troubling. Especially not from organizations who don’t have any type of official relationship with ours.
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  #21  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:23 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is offline
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Several black women have pledged NPCs at Auburn since that time but it seems that most prefer NPHCs. The same goes at Arkansas; I'm told that only 2.5% of the undergrad population is black women and that most of those prefer to pledge the NPHCs.

It's very frustrating to be totally open to pledging women of color (and even being pressured to do so by outside sources) when there really aren't that many who are interested, due to their family preferences.
It should not be frustrating at all, it should be the goal. It shouldn’t make a difference if it’s 1,500 Black girls that sign up for recruitment or 25. The goal should be to make those 25 feel comfortable, supported and allow them the same positive experience as any other young lady in the NPC. The statistics aren’t relevant. It’s about making the NPC a safe place for any qualified young woman who actually want to be there.

Most of the 2.5% won’t be joining ANY sorority for a million different reasons. Even if they they wanted to, we will never know, so let’s focus on the many young ladies who DO.
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:53 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
It should not be frustrating at all, it should be the goal. It shouldn’t make a difference if it’s 1,500 Black girls that sign up for recruitment or 25. The goal should be to make those 25 feel comfortable, supported and allow them the same positive experience as any other young lady in the NPC. The statistics aren’t relevant. It’s about making the NPC a safe place for any qualified young woman who actually want to be there..
I get that and have been working towards that goal for years, as 5 of my daughters are not white (3 did pledge NPCs). The thing is, outside sources (mostly) are haranguing the NPCs to pledge many more black girls, almost suggesting that we should have quotas. If they aren't gonna rush NPC, no one can force them to.

Try to imagine if some outside source felt that your chapter should pledge 25% white girls and you were making an honest effort to do so. (Yes, I doubt that could happen but let's say that it could.) You were getting little response and yet people were on your case, blaming you. This is what's happening to some NPCs and it's not right.
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Last edited by carnation; 07-31-2020 at 01:48 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-31-2020, 01:38 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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A lot of it comes from outside sources not understanding how rush works for NPC or NPHC and thinking that they both do it in the same way when in reality they’re poles apart. It’s not like everyone is filling out the same job application.
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2020, 03:09 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I get that and have been working towards that goal for years, as 5 of my daughters are not white (3 did pledge NPCs). The thing is, outside sources (mostly) are haranguing the NPCs to pledge many more black girls, almost suggesting that we should have quotas. If they aren't gonna rush NPC, no one can force them to.

Try to imagine if some outside source felt that your chapter should pledge 25% white girls and you were making an honest effort to do so. (Yes, I doubt that could happen but let's say that it could.) You were getting little response and yet people were on your case, blaming you. This is what's happening to some NPCs and it's not right.
...and they can keep haranguing. I tend to not worry about people that are not informed about what we are doing. We get plenty of comments about why we don’t “recruit” non-Black people or even let them in our organizations, when we don’t “recruit” Black people either and our numbers of non-Black initiates has grown. The peanut gallery doesn’t make me lose sleep at night. We control what we can control. The more “diverse” young ladies that are seen having positive experiences in the NPC, the more will feel emboldened and safe to participate.

Getting back to the hand-signs topic. I think all of this shows how much we really don’t know about each other. I wonder if our leadership ever even talks to each other.
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2020, 08:06 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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I wonder if our leadership ever even talks to each other.
Some NPHC organizations are also members of the NIC, but my impression is that that group is more about the business end of fraternities than it is about the cultural aspects.
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:36 PM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
What does gang culture have to do with it?
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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post

Getting back to the hand-signs topic. I think all of this shows how much we really don’t know about each other. I wonder if our leadership ever even talks to each other.
Total transparency here- from the first time I saw NPC groups "throwing hand signs", I thought they'd gotten it from gang culture. I didn't know NPHC groups had hand signs until I joined Greekchat but, working in adolescent mental health, had a lot of experience with gangs and gang signs. All the high schools had to ban wearing colors and throwing signs so my frame of reference was gang signs and that was back in the early 90s. I really thought that's where the sororities got it from.

I agree there is much we don't know about each other. When I was in leadership, I often said we had much to learn about NPHC because you convey the concept of lifelong membership that we simply cannot get. The number of women who stay active in NPC orgs after graduation is abysmal. We could learn a lot from you on that topic for sure.
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  #27  
Old 08-01-2020, 04:43 PM
AZTheta AZTheta is offline
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Frankly this is NOT any hill on which I'm going to die. Never liked any hand signs, but do love the DG anchor. That is adorable. Yes I am a DG fan and love all things anchor-related. I am a kite flyer who cherishes my anchor mates.

While I'm ranting, I particularly dislike the two Theta hand signs that our HQ "banned" or "strongly discouraged" (if memory serves and I am disinclined to search for the supporting documents at the present time because it's 111,000,000 degrees outside with no relief in sight for another month or two). You know which ones if you've been around more than a little while. Don't make me 'splain it to you guys.

Thank you, PersistentDST and Sen, for your well-reasoned points.
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  #28  
Old 08-01-2020, 09:05 PM
Titchou Titchou is offline
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2020, 02:09 PM
OldFLDDD OldFLDDD is offline
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Tri Delta has had their hand sign since I pledged in the late 80s. I sure hope they don’t have to give theirs up.
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:22 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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They were using it in the early seventies! I remember them leaning out the windows during rush--3 girls would lean out of each window and make the delta sign.
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