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  #16  
Old 11-10-2019, 10:36 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
I'm confused. Are you asking on what we base our MS decisions? Is it not obvious that putting looks as the most important aspect, far above all else, is a recipe for disaster? Is it even a question that this being taught by the organization's leadership is misguiding the collegiate members and setting them up not only to fail, but to fill their chapters with members who have questionable values and cause issues, some which may lead to criminal charges and/or public humiliation?

Or am I misinterpreting your question?
But there have been NPC chapters of women who have questionable values who aren't pretty. That's not really my concern.

My question is whether someone will lay out what the ideal selection and vetting process ought to be.
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  #17  
Old 11-10-2019, 11:28 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Looks/appearance figure into it, sure. But so does Gpa, extracurricular involvement, and personality. You assign a value to each of those things and average them out somehow.

Every group does this a little differently, and Iím betting every chapter does it differently. (I seriously doubt that the ABC chapter with 39 members follows the same procedure as the ABC chapter with 409 members.)

If, as described in the Beta Delta letter, you have a woman come through who is beloved by everyone in the chapter who knows her, has extracurricular involvement and good grades - and your national is telling you to kick her to the curb because her looks are inadequate- thatís what everyone is saying is completely wrong.
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  #18  
Old 11-10-2019, 11:40 AM
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Sciencewoman Sciencewoman is offline
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I think you can make a direct correlation between all the rec request/recruitment advice forums and what NPC sororities typically look for in members -- strong academics, character, commitment to volunteering and community engagement, etc. I don't think any group's rec form has a space for "hotness score." That's overtly different than suggesting PNMs be well-groomed and appropriately attired during recruitment, just as people should be for a variety of situations that have a dress code. What bothers me is that there appears to be a directed sell-out here -- swapping values-based recruitment in favor of stereotypical "hot" looks. If true, it feels like a sell out to Greek Rank, Total Frat Move, and any other misogynist external evaluation venue, in my mind.
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  #19  
Old 11-10-2019, 11:43 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Looks/appearance figure into it, sure. But so does Gpa, extracurricular involvement, and personality. You assign a value to each of those things and average them out somehow.

Every group does this a little differently, and Iím betting every chapter does it differently. (I seriously doubt that the ABC chapter with 39 members follows the same procedure as the ABC chapter with 409 members.)

If, as described in the Beta Delta letter, you have a woman come through who is beloved by everyone in the chapter who knows her, has extracurricular involvement and good grades - and your national is telling you to kick her to the curb because her looks are inadequate- thatís what everyone is saying is completely wrong.
So question.... (and you know me, so you know I am coming from a place of understanding and not disrespect)

Why should looks figure into it at all?

For example, what if there is a category that says whether or not a PNM has a professional or put-together hair style.

Then a black or biracial girl comes in with dreadlocks.

What happens when Karen with the clipboard decides to take points off because she has never seen a black hairstyle?

Or a Muslim woman who covers?

I guess what I am saying as an outsider to the process is that what Alpha Phi is alleged to be doing doesn't seem that much different from what the system does as a whole. It's just that one way is codified and organized and the other way is more casual.
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  #20  
Old 11-10-2019, 11:44 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by Sciencewoman View Post
I think you can make a direct correlation between all the rec request/recruitment advice forums and what NPC sororities typically look for in members -- strong academics, character, commitment to volunteering and community engagement, etc. I don't think any group's rec form has a space for "hotness score." That's overtly different than suggesting PNMs be well-groomed and appropriately attired during recruitment, just as people should be for a variety of situations that have a dress code. What bothers me is that there appears to be a directed sell-out here -- swapping values-based recruitment in favor of stereotypical "hot" looks. If true, it feels like a sell out to Greek Rank, in my mind.
Fair enough.

I see it as fruit from the same tree.
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  #21  
Old 11-10-2019, 12:02 PM
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Your point about codifying is interesting to me, Sen. I think about that when our faculty votes on tenure and promotion decisions. Yes, we have a clearly written rubric for teaching, scholarship, and service expectations; faculty prepare substantive portfolios and they are reviewed and discussed...but the process still involves an anonymous, secret ballot vote, and any other professor can secretly vote however they want for whatever reason and no one will ever know. If any group's process involves any secret ballot procedure, individual judgments that may vere from the organization's standards will be impossible to avoid. It's the alleged overt/official priority that is being placed on looks that is raising eyebrows and blood pressures, as I see it.
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2019, 02:27 PM
BamaBlossom BamaBlossom is offline
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Also - friend in heaven was banned only because of the site promotion. When the supermod who did it was informed of the situation they quickly undid it.

We got this.
So friendinheaven has been unbanned? I was unaware of that and it doesnít appear that way in her profile so Iím confused.
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2019, 04:12 PM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Your point about codifying is interesting to me, Sen. I think about that when our faculty votes on tenure and promotion decisions. Yes, we have a clearly written rubric for teaching, scholarship, and service expectations; faculty prepare substantive portfolios and they are reviewed and discussed...but the process still involves an anonymous, secret ballot vote, and any other professor can secretly vote however they want for whatever reason and no one will ever know. If any group's process involves any secret ballot procedure, individual judgments that may vere from the organization's standards will be impossible to avoid. It's the alleged overt/official priority that is being placed on looks that is raising eyebrows and blood pressures, as I see it.
I hear you.
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:45 PM
sigmagirl2000 sigmagirl2000 is offline
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I have volunteered on campuses where chapters have not taken black women or other minorities. I cannot speak to their membership selection as I am not involved, however I can say that we gained several amazing members who have gone on to do amazing things as chapter and alumnae membership in our organization. I consider this our win and their missing out.
And would hope that anyone (collegiate members) would be able to discern personal hygiene and appropriate dress and hairstyle these days regardless of ethnicity, but alas. I am often wrong and darn, this gives more food for thought as always.

I take the major offense here to be that the NPC is focusing on values based recruitment and appearance alone should not be a core value for any NPC organization. I have seen allegations that the organization is question is actively seeking out grade risks, risk management risks, morals risks, etc. in order to have the prettiest and most sought after chapters. That completely goes against values based recruiting and a panhellenic sisterhood. .

My heart hurts for members of this organization who can’t support where the organization is heading. As AZTheta said, (or alluded to- I’m not so good as paraphrasing) this choice by one of 26 organizations could cause the demise of all of them. And that’s not okay when potentially 26 organizations have in the past created supportive networks for young collegiate women and their alumnae and most continue to do so to this day, but may get impacted and punished for the actions of one.
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  #25  
Old 11-10-2019, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000 View Post
I have seen allegations that the organization is question is actively seeking out grade risks, risk management risks, morals risks, etc. in order to have the prettiest and most sought after chapters. That completely goes against values based recruiting and a panhellenic sisterhood. .
I wouldn't say they are actually seeking out the girls that are grade risks, RM risks, girls with behavioral issues, etc. I think the issue is that this organization is IGNORING all of those issues and recruiting based almost solely on the basis of "hotness".
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2019, 09:10 PM
sigmagirl2000 sigmagirl2000 is offline
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I think that based on many accounts I have heard from people on the ground in various organizations as primary recruitments with this organization involved that there have been pnms known and shared to be substance, grade, risk management risks and chapters have notified each other so that they don’t get the “bad egg” shall it be and and this organization has actively pursued such women with documented issues (shall we call them here, whether they be legal documents, social media, etc.) were actively sought out by the organization if they still fit a certain look. That to me is questionable. I’m not speaking for any organization, only myself when I say that I am concerned about the leadership of such organization and how it will not only affect their members but the NPC as a whole. That being said, I can’t think that the NPC is sitting back unaware and not having talks or plans that the rest of us are unaware of.
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  #27  
Old 11-10-2019, 09:11 PM
sigmagirl2000 sigmagirl2000 is offline
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Dang that was some crappy English and syntax there. Good thing I teach math and not English. Apologies for anyone trying to decipher that message.
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  #28  
Old 11-10-2019, 09:59 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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The wisest tack for NPC to take would be to definitively show that A Phi really is cheating or otherwise disobeying rules at rush (an NPC function) rather than criticize their methods of membership selection (an individual org function) and discipline them in some way because of the former.

Interfering with an individual organization’s MS policies (no matter how repugnant) is a bell that can’t be un-rung.
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  #29  
Old 11-10-2019, 10:16 PM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
The wisest tack for NPC to take would be to definitively show that A Phi really is cheating or otherwise disobeying rules at rush (an NPC function) rather than criticize their methods of membership selection (an individual org function) and discipline them in some way because of the former.

Interfering with an individual organizationís MS policies (no matter how repugnant) is a bell that canít be un-rung.


Now this I understand and agree with.

I'm sure it's what you all were saying all along, I just needed a slower path there.
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  #30  
Old 11-10-2019, 11:54 PM
UrsaMajor UrsaMajor is offline
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I don't think that NPC has the appetite to interfere with the actual MS policies of any group. Having said that, there can be a great deal of conversation that makes Alpha Phi uncomfortable. Their policies clearly run afoul of the stated goals of value-based recruitment. They are clearly thumbing their noses at it. 33Girl is right that the cheating or breaking of rules is the thing that they can really address. But, do not underestimate the value of the social pressure from NPC peers. The more that Alpha Phi leadership feels like a pariah, the better.

From the NPC website regarding Values-Based Recruitment.

Message From the Chairman: Values-Based Recruitment
Across the country this month and next, new students arrive on campuses eagerly anticipating the launch of their college experiences. A significant number of those female students -- 158,566 in 2015-16 -- will participate in sorority membership recruitment. Sorority chapters are afforded the opportunity and privilege to engage with these women during recruitment. With privilege comes the responsibility of providing an experience grounded in the shared values of the 26 National Panhellenic Conference (NPC) member organizations.

In fall 2015, NPC reaffirmed a collective commitment to values-based membership recruiting. What is values-based recruitment? It starts with the rich words found in the NPC creed: "We, as fraternity women, stand for service through the development of character inspired by the close contact and deep friendship of individual fraternity and Panhellenic life. The opportunity for wide and wise human service, through mutual respect and helpfulness, is the tenet by which we strive to live."

Centering the recruitment process for both the sorority member and the potential new member on the rich core values of each inter/national women's organization helps ensure a rich experience for all who participate.

How recruitment looks and how it is executed varies from campus to campus. Panhellenic communities are challenged to visit old practices and reshape how the process of recruitment benefits all involved. Reflecting on personal values and key values of an organization, and wrapping those around the benefits of sorority membership, should shape conversations during recruitment. These types of conversations give a young woman seeking sorority membership the opportunity to assess her own values and determine whether they're congruent with an organization's. And likewise, this offers sorority chapters the same opportunity of assessment through the mutual selection process.

As a College Panhellenic community navigates through creating positive change and a better understanding of why and how a values-based recruitment experience impacts the community both internally and externally, NPC offers resources: Resolved to Educate and three values and ethics workshops. In addition, numerous volunteers and campus-based professionals will devote countless hours to providing assistance to Panhellenic communities this academic year as they execute the membership recruitment process. NPC says "thank you" for your gift of time, support and commitment to advancing the sorority experience.

Interfraternally,
Donna C. King
Chairman 2015-17
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