White men in NPHC

[RedefinedDiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I don't believe that, and that was never my point. Please read more carefully.

I think you should do the same. This conversation has gone on for far too long, all because you are worried about what WE do in our orgs. The young man asked about NPHC orgs. and members of the NPHC are the best ones to answer. We did.

In a nutshell: D9 orgs. accept members from all races. Some members of the NPHC on GC have stated that they wouldn't vote for a non-Black prospect. However, they do not represent the majority. Everyone is welcomed to try and should not be discouraged. Do your research and good luck.

[Reds6]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I just think that judging people based on the color of their skin is a behavior to terminate not to propogate. Also there's a difference with NPC groups in that no matter our historical founding we're pretty much open to everyone and Christians do join historically Jewish organizations every day.. ok well every Rush. THe important part is whether one can uphold the values of the organization. I do not deny we have racist members, but I wouldn't hold my tongue then either

I'm not disputing that Non-Jews join Historically founded Frats and Sororities, but I'm sure when they do it's questioned why.

But we can continue to go back and forth and my position won't change. Although my orgnaization does except white members, my question will still remain why does a white person want to join a historically black Sorority? I wouldn't vote no for a white person soley based on their skin color but on my doubt of the level of committment they have to my community.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by RedefinedDiva

I think you should do the same. This conversation has gone on for far too long, all because you are worried about what WE do in our orgs. The young man asked about NPHC orgs. and members of the NPHC are the best ones to answer. We did.

Yes, and I commented on something else entirely. I'm not particularly worried about how you run your organization. This conversation has not gone on longer than anything else and if you dislike it you are free to do so, I was, however, enjoying a dialogue.

In a nutshell: D9 orgs. accept members from all races.

I still don't think you've been following the conversation. This is quite understood.

Some members of the NPHC on GC have stated that they wouldn't vote for a non-Black prospect.

And this is what I commented on.

However, they do not represent the majority.

I've acknowleged this all along, and I commented because it is disheartening to see even in the indivdual and I find that sort of across the border bias offensive.

Everyone is welcomed to try and should not be discouraged. Do your research and good luck.

Also, understood and I'm sure interests appreciate the encouragement.

Originally Posted by Reds6

I'm not disputing that Non-Jews join Historically founded Frats and Sororities, but I'm sure when they do it's questioned why.

As I'm not in a Jewish organization I can't speak for them, but if they're much like the rest of the NPC there's not a lot of questioning going on along those lines.

But we can continue to go back and forth and my position won't change.

I never really expected you to change your position based on me, I simply wished to express my opinion on the matter.

Although my orgnaization does except white members, my question will still remain why does a white person want to join a historically black Sorority?I wouldn't vote no for a white person soley based on their skin color but on my doubt of the level of committment they have to my community.

The part that bothers me, is the assumption that their level of commitment will be lower than any acceptable black interest simply because of their skin color. That is what made me speak up, and that's still my opinion on the matter.

[FAMUDva]

Originally Posted by Reds6

I think she made a generalization on what she was taught at home.

Gotcha Soror.

[pinkies up]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

I find it comical too. Ain't America great?

*pinkies up leaves the stage* Pinkies Up, ladies and gentlemen, Pinkies Up!! *applause*

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.....

An AKA is used to the spotlight. Continue on...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The part that bothers me, is the assumption that their level of commitment will be lower than any acceptable black interest simply because of their skin color.

I do not think that many in the D9 have an assumption that an interest from a different ethnic group would have a lower commitment than an acceptable African American one.

I do think that without a historical balance or a true sense of what happens in the African American community, there will be a cultural disadvantage.

Just go to the Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. greekchat board and see how we all are discussing what it is like growing up Black. Yes, relative to other cultures there are several similarities. At the same time, there are differences that one would not know unless they grew up in that culture. Is there anything wrong with that.

Now this young man who started this thread decided to grow up in a culture unlike his own family's. And now he wants to further become acculturated and indoctrinated in the pinnacle African American of culture. Think about the book entitled "Our Kind of People". And he has reservations about joining because he feels as if "toes" would be stepped on if he get accepted verses another candidate who "fits the profile". At least that is what I am interpreting from his comments.

I think most of us here of GC are in agreement that if he is about community service and appropriate representation of his organization of choice, then his ethnic heritage will not be an issue. Yes, he will get snarky comments or even sneers, that's the reality of it. There is no way we can protect ourselves from that ignorance. But just like interracial relationships, folks are going to have to get over it because it is happening. So what?

You know it is fine that you comment and you earnestly want to learn, but as you can see folks are getting defensive about your comments because they view it as invalidating their perspectives or belittling their experiences. Many a Black woman have told me publically and privately endure a constant barage of comments similar to yours that overtime begin to naw at one's soul until what is left is a hollow shell of a hopeless person. I think sociologists call it institutionalized racism, but you would have to as DSTChaos because that is her field of expertise.

So, when I explain that this is going on in the minds and souls of Black folks, the educated folks are more understanding, whereas, the hateful and heartless folks, well, now you know why some Black hate groups say the things they do. Is it right? No. But that is how stereotypes perpetuate.

What most in the D9 are saying here is that we are dispelling myths perpetuated by haters. We have to endure these hateful comments all the time. Long time ago, we never had to endure hateful comments from our own community. But, now, even our own community dislikes our existence but loves it when we have a party, step or give out scholarships.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The part that bothers me, is the assumption that their level of commitment will be lower than any acceptable black interest simply because of their skin color. That is what made me speak up, and that's still my opinion on the matter.

You talk about "skin color" as if it were an objective concept, divorced from culture and experience.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I do not think that many in the D9 have an assumption that an interest from a different ethnic group would have a lower commitment than an acceptable African American one.

I do think that without a historical balance or a true sense of what happens in the African American community, there will be a cultural disadvantage.

Just go to the Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. greekchat board and see how we all are discussing what it is like growing up Black. Yes, relative to other cultures there are several similarities. At the same time, there are differences that one would not know unless they grew up in that culture. Is there anything wrong with that.

Now this young man who started this thread decided to grow up in a culture unlike his own family's. And now he wants to further become acculturated and indoctrinated in the pinnacle African American of culture. Think about the book entitled "Our Kind of People". And he has reservations about joining because he feels as if "toes" would be stepped on if he get accepted verses another candidate who "fits the profile". At least that is what I am interpreting from his comments.

I think most of us here of GC are in agreement that if he is about community service and appropriate representation of his organization of choice, then his ethnic heritage will not be an issue. Yes, he will get snarky comments or even sneers, that's the reality of it. There is no way we can protect ourselves from that ignorance. But just like interracial relationships, folks are going to have to get over it because it is happening. So what?

You know it is fine that you comment and you earnestly want to learn, but as you can see folks are getting defensive about your comments because they view it as invalidating their perspectives or belittling their experiences. Many a Black woman have told me publically and privately endure a constant barage of comments similar to yours that overtime begin to naw at one's soul until what is left is a hollow shell of a hopeless person. I think sociologists call it institutionalized racism, but you would have to as DSTChaos because that is her field of expertise.

So, when I explain that this is going on in the minds and souls of Black folks, the educated folks are more understanding, whereas, the hateful and heartless folks, well, now you know why some Black hate groups say the things they do. Is it right? No. But that is how stereotypes perpetuate.

What most in the D9 are saying here is that we are dispelling myths perpetuated by haters. We have to endure these hateful comments all the time. Long time ago, we never had to endure hateful comments from our own community. But, now, even our own community dislikes our existence but loves it when we have a party, step or give out scholarships.

I appreciate the long reply, I really do understand the bulk of this and am only commenting on one aspect that compelled me to speak up. I do not feel like I'm contributing to institutionalized racism with this discussion nor am I saying that a white person knows what its like to be black.

Yes, most of GC agrees on the matter. And I'll repeat, I don't think the D9 discriminates based on race as whole organizations. Individuals do. I spoke up because of that and because it is such a blanket statement it doesn't parse to me. (That and the blow off type comment of "That's just me." which to me implies that one knows it goes against their org.'s policy)

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

You talk about "skin color" as if it were an objective concept, divorced from culture and experience.

No, actually I'm objecting to one divorcing skin color from culture and experience. To make a comment based only on skin color and the assumption that a person is one way because of their skin color is ignoring that person's culture and experience. To say no white person is worthy without knowing the individual white person involved individually is ignoring that individual's culture and experience. Do I make sense?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

To make a comment based only on skin color

Interesting... skin color is a component of social identity; not necessarily from an individual's perspective, but always from society as a whole. Black Americans have the blessing/curse of a unique shared experience. D9 organizations are an expression of this experience. It is understandable that members of these organizations would not want to share this very personal experience with those who cannot understand it. Those who do invite white aspirants simply have a different perspective.

Would you want a man to join your sorority? Why or why not?

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

No, actually I'm objecting to one divorcing skin color from culture and experience. To make a comment based only on skin color and the assumption that a person is one way because of their skin color is ignoring that person's culture and experience. To say no white person is worthy without knowing the individual white person involved individually is ignoring that individual's culture and experience. Do I make sense?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean ... personally, I feel like a person's ethnicity cannot be separated from their culture and experience. (People who attempt to create that kind of separation usually wind up pretty screwed up.) No matter what, no one who is not black will ever completely have the same experience. It's just not possible. This means that non-black ethnicity is an issue for membership to D9 orgs. In other words, the whiteness (or whatever it is) manifests itself, at least to some extent, in a person's culture and experience, and that is too insurmountable a barrier for some to accept. Obviously, I don't see it as insurmountable, nor do those who voted on me. But I can see that it is a problem, and people (especially those who are considering pursuing membership as a non-black member) have to be aware of that and evaluate themselves in that regard.

[RedefinedDiva]

I am reading quite well and have been following the conversation since the beginning. I think that you are the one that is trying to run off and turn the conversation into something that it doesn't have to be. The point that you are debating is MOOT. The members of D9 orgs. that SAY they wouldn't vote for a white member are NO different than members of your sorority or any other that SILENTLY know that they wouldn't vote for a non-white member. Point blank. The only difference is that D9 members are verbalizing it and a non-minority member knows up front not to expect that ONE vote. Such is the way of the world.

While you are trying to tell us that your sorority is open and accepting of all people, you can say in the same breath that some of them are racists. So obviously, those are votes that I, as a Black girl, shouldn't expect to get. Just because they aren't posting across GC, stating that they wouldn't vote for someone like me, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Obviously, it exists. You know their intent, so it's obviously not something that's private. Yet, you are outraged that NPHC members are stating their reasons to question a white girl attempting to join a historically Black sorority?

Take a look at GC. Go through the forums. Of all the sororities and fraterities listed under each forum, NINE are NPHC orgs. NINE. Four are sororities. So, I can agree with any soror or sistergreek that would raise and eyebrow at a white girl that has seemingly unlimited orgs. to join, yet decided on an NPHC org. I'm also sure that if I attempted to rush an NPC or other sorority, at least one person there would wonder why I wasn't trying to be a member of AKA or Delta or one of "our" sororities.

It happens and not just from "us" simply because "we" are the ones voicing it.

[shinerbock]

If a black fraternity is less comfortable letting in a white guy, more power to them. Its their organization, they should be able to decide who fits in with their group.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Interesting... skin color is a component of social identity; not necessarily from an individual's perspective, but always from society as a whole. Black Americans have the blessing/curse of a unique shared experience. D9 organizations are an expression of this experience. It is understandable that members of these organizations would not want to share this very personal experience with those who cannot understand it. Those who do invite white aspirants simply have a different perspective.
Would you want a man to join your sorority? Why or why not?

Well, yes, they have a different perspective, but it is also one against that of their national organization. I commented on it as it shows assumptions made based on the color of their skin, either that simply because they're white they're not a good member or that because they're white, they're not as dedicated as any acceptable black member and not a good member. That is the perspective that made me comment.

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

I'm not sure exactly what you mean ... personally, I feel like a person's ethnicity cannot be separated from their culture and experience. (People who attempt to create that kind of separation usually wind up pretty screwed up.) No matter what, no one who is not black will ever completely have the same experience. It's just not possible. This means that non-black ethnicity is an issue for membership to D9 orgs. In other words, the whiteness (or whatever it is) manifests itself, at least to some extent, in a person's culture and experience, and that is too insurmountable a barrier for some to accept. Obviously, I don't see it as insurmountable, nor do those who voted on me. But I can see that it is a problem, and people (especially those who are considering pursuing membership as a non-black member) have to be aware of that and evaluate themselves in that regard.

Despite its reality, it is a shame that it is the case. That is what I'm saying. I don't ever expect people to stop fearing "the other." Our mammalian roots say keep outsiders away and it is instinctual to protect one's self and those one identifies with at the expense of outsiders. This is true of society as a whole. At the same time, as thinking beings we have the ability to overcome that. Anthropology aside, I simply commented on a sweeping statement that was made.

Originally Posted by RedefinedDiva

I am reading quite well and have been following the conversation since the beginning. I think that you are the one that is trying to run off and turn the conversation into something that it doesn't have to be. The point that you are debating is MOOT. The members of D9 orgs. that SAY they wouldn't vote for a white member are NO different than members of your sorority or any other that SILENTLY know that they wouldn't vote for a non-white member. Point blank. The only difference is that D9 members are verbalizing it and a non-minority member knows up front not to expect that ONE vote. Such is the way of the world.

What am I trying to turn the conversation into? Something besides a comment on what was, IMO, a biased statement that I found to be offensive? I never claimed one member in a D9 org was different from a member in an NPC org, but I can only react to what I see. As I said in a previous post, if I saw my sister, or another NPC member making a similar comment I would speak up. Would a D9 member really tell a non-minority person that s/he will not be getting his/her vote?

While you are trying to tell us that your sorority is open and accepting of all people, you can say in the same breath that some of them are racists. So obviously, those are votes that I, as a Black girl, shouldn't expect to get. Just because they aren't posting across GC, stating that they wouldn't vote for someone like me, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Obviously, it exists. You know their intent, so it's obviously not something that's private. Yet, you are outraged that NPHC members are stating their reasons to question a white girl attempting to join a historically Black sorority?

Yes, my sorority accepts women of all races, ethnicities and creeds. I am not naive enough to think that none of my sisters are racist. However, I would challenge them (much more harshly than my comments here) because it is antithetical to our national organization. Because I do not know of anyone, it is private, at least from me. That's all I can speak on.

I am far from outraged. My comment was based on NPHC members who simply say they would "never vote for a white person" (and I'm really not targeting just this thread either). It is not until my questions that I've seen any sort of explanation besides a blasé "That's just me" that I've seen over and over. I was, and am, offended by the statement and the concept. Whether you choose to care about my offended status is, of course, another matter. Obviously I'm not a member of your organization or any of the D9 ones. However as this is a public message board, I read a public comment and was publicly offended by it.

Take a look at GC. Go through the forums. Of all the sororities and fraterities listed under each forum, NINE are NPHC orgs. NINE. Four are sororities. So, I can agree with any soror or sistergreek that would raise and eyebrow at a white girl that has seemingly unlimited orgs. to join, yet decided on an NPHC org. I'm also sure that if I attempted to rush an NPC or other sorority, at least one person there would wonder why I wasn't trying to be a member of AKA or Delta or one of "our" sororities.

It happens and not just from "us" simply because "we" are the ones voicing it.

As you acknowledge yourself many times, the NPHC orgs are different and there is often a reason behind one seeking membership in it. Some people are raised around it, some discover it in college, some later in life, but for them to join they have to put out effort and not just randomly decide to join.

I would bet that the average white interest is not just randomly choosing an org or joining because it is the only thing available but has become truly interested to the values of the sorority or fraternity. How else could any white person become a member?

As for if you rushed an NPC sorority, at least on my campus, there would have been no question. There isn't always a strong black greek presence on campuses, although they're there if they're sought out. Our systems are very different in that respect. We assume that if you go through recruitment, you're interested in joining one of our chapters. Particularly for the average NPC member who does in fact have minorities in her sorority they don't think much of it. For NPC chapters familiar with the NPHC, they'd simply assume that you didn't have interest in a D9 org, for whatever reason.

I know "you" are the ones voicing it, and that's why I am commenting on it now.

[Trey_P-I_47]

Well since we are still going on about this topic......I have a question that I would like to see other people's opinions on.

Do you think it would be easier for a Caucasian person to get into a D9 organization at an HBCU or at some other campus?

[CutiePie2000]

I seem to recall that there was an article in "Essence" magazine about white people in NPHC orgs. I remember reading it when I lived in Toronto, so it would have been circa 2001? I think it was a good article and perhaps worth digging for.