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  #136  
Old 12-02-2014, 02:50 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Two very drunk (but not incapacitated) students having sex that they probably wouldn't have if they were stone cold sober.
That's not the same as a rape and definitely not the sort of thing which allegedly happened at UVA. And these situations where sex is consensual and the female decides she wants takesie backsies and asks for charges to be filed are true horror stories which many schools' implementations of Title IX have led me to believe the male student could be victimized by a process rigged in the favor of the alleged victim.

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And it's a very different problem than the much more rare problem of the predator who uses alcohol in a deliberate way to facilitate sexual assaults. But the fear mongers are treating them exactly the same.
And again, we are -->here<-- on that issue. The best we can hope for is to have open dialog with the schools, take appropriate steps for prevention and when it does happen, we want to avoid an us vs. them approach with our host schools. Our national organizations need to take good looks at shutting down some of the problem chapters regardless of how much $$ those chapters generate. Schools need to do a better job communicating with national groups as to which of their organizations merit inquiry and schools need to look at policies of exclusion for national organizations who do not play ball with universities which are trying to protect their students.
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  #137  
Old 12-02-2014, 03:09 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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This issue, kind of like school shootings, kind of like terrorist attacks, etc., while real and while needing to be addressed is not nearly so pervasive as your above sentence would suggest.
No, I don't agree. School shootings, and especially terrorist attacks, are orders of magnitude rarer than rapes in fraternity houses or by fraternity men.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us on GC are aware of one or more sexual assaults that occurred within the Greek system of our own campuses. I know survivors from my alma mater. In fact, it might be easier to count those of us who are not aware of any such events from our colleges. But the vast majority of us attended colleges where there has never been a school shooting. And that is true even though rapes can and do stay secret, and school shootings do not. We're talking about many thousands of rapes vs. dozens of school shootings at most.
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  #138  
Old 12-02-2014, 04:06 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Low D Flat View Post
No, I don't agree. School shootings, and especially terrorist attacks, are orders of magnitude rarer than rapes in fraternity houses or by fraternity men.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us on GC are aware of one or more sexual assaults that occurred within the Greek system of our own campuses.
I think that depends on what we're talking about when we talk about rapes and sexual assaults for purposes of the comparison Kevin was drawing. Are we talking about any instance where alcohol abuse by both parties makes consent murkey or meaningless, or where consent is withdrawn? Or are we only talking about those instances where there is a deliberate and conspiratorial intent and plan to rape or assault, such as what has been described at UVA. I think when Kevin made the school shootings and terrorist attacks comparison, he was speaking only of the latter kinds of rapes and assaults, not date rape and the like.

Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.
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  #139  
Old 12-02-2014, 04:10 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
That's not the same as a rape and definitely not the sort of thing which allegedly happened at UVA. And these situations where sex is consensual and the female decides she wants takesie backsies and asks for charges to be filed are true horror stories which many schools' implementations of Title IX have led me to believe the male student could be victimized by a process rigged in the favor of the alleged victim.
I agree, it's not the same thing as the alleged crime at UVA, but the media, as well as the OCR and many campus admins are treating it as all the same problem. That's my point. That's where all these scary statistics come from. I believe the Rolling Stone article made the claim that one in three females at UVA is assaulted at some point. Sorry, but that just defies common sense logic. What parent in their right mind would continue to send their daughters to such a dangerous place? And with the article's emphasis on the horrific gang-rape, it is definitely written to conflate some very disparate problems all into one ugly "rapists are everywhere at UVA" reaction.
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  #140  
Old 12-02-2014, 04:16 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.
And they would not benefit from the same solution. A predatory rapist isn't going to be amenable to being "taught" not to rape. And thinking that college expulsion is a proper resolution seems insane.

So why are so many activists (and media) using this "it's all the same big problem" approach?
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  #141  
Old 12-02-2014, 04:56 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
I think when Kevin made the school shootings and terrorist attacks comparison, he was speaking only of the latter kinds of rapes and assaults, not date rape and the like.

Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.
How, exactly, are you defining date rape? The RS article involved a woman who was raped by a man she knew and was on a date with. That pretty classically meets the definition of "date rape."
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  #142  
Old 12-02-2014, 05:42 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Kevin, I did not mean or even imply that the description of the truly craven behavior of the fraternity men described in the RS article applies to all fraternities or all men within any given fraternity. What I AM saying is that the public perception of MANY -and even before the RS article- is that the fraternities are characterized by heavy drinking, sex-obsessed young men. And to change that perception, fraternity men on campuses will need to take a very firm and consistent stand that they in no manner defend or support that kind of behavior. What can you do? Enthusiastically sign on to things like the blue armband bystander programs which are developing on college campuses. Form escort groups to see young women safely home to their residences. And many more affirmative programs that I'm sure you all can develop.

As part of the non-aired emergency meeting at UVA held with its Board of Visitors, Administrators, and student leaders, the IFC President said (paraphrased) that as much as it hurts him to acknowledge it, rape is a serious problem within the UVA fraternities.

Candor and a courageous acknowledgement of the reality of the problem is what parents, alumni, students, and community members are looking for. And constructive steps to deal with it. Looking for those very rare instances of false rape reports or other attempts to minimize a very serious problem are not being seen at all favorably. Wrong focus for now!

I was very surprised to see that Sigma Nu is no longer on my undergraduate college campus. Sigma Nu was always a very solid chapter and remained so when I took our youngest to look at the music department there. One of its members drove us around and escorted us to the buildings we needed to go to. A complete gentleman.

I just hate seeing what is going on now in what were once very respected fraternities!
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  #143  
Old 12-02-2014, 06:30 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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Originally Posted by honorgal View Post
Way too late, that train has already left the station and is barreling down the tracks.

Some reporters have finally started using their critical thinking skills and are raising some questions about the Rolling Stone allegations. It won't matter. The author has even responded by stated that we shouldn't concern ourselves with the facts, it's the overarching theme that's important.

An example of "raising some questions about the Rolling Stone allegations":

http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion...084c116e2.html
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  #144  
Old 12-02-2014, 06:55 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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The Seven Society at UVA is offering money ($57,777.77) for bystander training and other training-- the gift is offered to honor several students, including "Jackie" (of the Rolling Stone story):

http://inthecapital.streetwise.co/20...ates-57777-77/

Last edited by exlurker; 12-02-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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  #145  
Old 12-02-2014, 07:55 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by exlurker View Post
The Seven Society at UVA is offering money ($57,777.77) for bystander training and other training-- the gift is offered to honor several students, including "Jackie" (of the Rolling Stone story):

http://inthecapital.streetwise.co/20...ates-57777-77/
This is a great start! Now I HOPE that fraternity men rise to the occasion and get bystander training for themselves. Would be a great pledge activity!
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  #146  
Old 12-02-2014, 08:02 PM
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thetalady thetalady is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
How, exactly, are you defining date rape? The RS article involved a woman who was raped by a man she knew and was on a date with. That pretty classically meets the definition of "date rape."
How dense can you be? According to the article, she was raped by 7 men. She was NOT on a date with 7 men. This was NOT date rape. It was a horrific gang rape.
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  #147  
Old 12-02-2014, 08:20 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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It started out with "Drew" taking Jackie on a date. After a dinner at a restaurant, they went back to the Phi Psi house. There "Drew" acted like the Judas goat and led her upstairs where she was gang raped by the other seven men.
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  #148  
Old 12-02-2014, 08:42 PM
DeltaBetaBaby DeltaBetaBaby is offline
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How dense can you be? According to the article, she was raped by 7 men. She was NOT on a date with 7 men. This was NOT date rape. It was a horrific gang rape.
Pretty dense. Please educate me on which types of rape rise to the level of "horrific" and which types we don't really have to worry about.
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  #149  
Old 12-02-2014, 09:12 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby View Post
Pretty dense. Please educate me on which types of rape rise to the level of "horrific" and which types we don't really have to worry about.
Where did she say anything about there being types we don't really have to worry about?
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  #150  
Old 12-02-2014, 09:25 PM
honorgal honorgal is offline
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This is the lead example from a in-depth 7 page article on rape at Swarthmore.

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Sendrow is a 23-year-old brunette from Princeton, New Jersey. Her mother is from Mexico; her dad is a Jewish guy from the Bronx. She graduated last spring and works in health care in Washington, D.C. If 3,000 smiling Facebook photos are a good barometer, her four years at Swarthmore seem to have passed by untroubled. But in the midwinter of 2013, Sendrow says, she was in her room with a guy with whom she’d been hooking up for three months. They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends. When he ended up falling asleep on her bed, she changed into pajamas and climbed in next to him. Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. “I basically said, ‘No, I don’t want to have sex with you.’ And then he said, ‘Okay, that’s fine’ and stopped,” Sendrow told me. “And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties, taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything — I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.”
Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/articles/ra...ZQp0kvx6mIf.99

Would anyone characterize this as equally horrific to the gang rape described in the RS article? Anyone?
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