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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.


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View Poll Results: Does your chapter haze?
Yes. 324 24.77%
No. 868 66.36%
Not sure. 116 8.87%
Voters: 1308. You may not vote on this poll

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  #826  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:16 AM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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Damned if I know at midnight.

But I think hazing in school goes back long before fraternities, whether hard core hazing or the milder sort. If I had to bet, I'd bet that until the last few decades, completely hazing-free pledgeships were the exception.
Didn't somebody post a article about hazing in one of the ivy's way back in the 1800s?
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  #827  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:28 AM
Drolefille Drolefille is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
Damned if I know at midnight.

But I think hazing in school goes back long before fraternities, whether hard core hazing or the milder sort. If I had to bet, I'd bet that until the last few decades, completely hazing-free pledgeships were the exception.
My thought process is that there was some point at which that "proving yourself" thing became the realm of fraternities (and later sororities) instead of *somewhere else.* But I could be wrong.
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  #828  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:36 AM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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Originally Posted by Drolefille View Post
My thought process is that there was some point at which that "proving yourself" thing became the realm of fraternities (and later sororities) instead of *somewhere else.* But I could be wrong.
Well I think the most prevalent theory is that it was the result of GI Bill soldiers joining fraternities for the comradeship and bringing the hazing practices of the military with them. Not sure how much truth there is to that though.
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  #829  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:38 AM
Drolefille Drolefille is offline
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Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito View Post
Well I think the most prevalent theory is that it was the result of GI Bill soldiers joining fraternities for the comradeship and bringing the hazing practices of the military with them. Not sure how much truth there is to that though.
I hadn't heard that, but proportionally were a lot of GI bill soldiers joining fraternities? (Though saying that I found out that I think my grandfather joined a fraternity after he returned from Korea although he'd been in a different school at a different time too and the fraternity's records didn't go back that far.)
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  #830  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:41 AM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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Originally Posted by Drolefille View Post
I hadn't heard that, but proportionally were a lot of GI bill soldiers joining fraternities? (Though saying that I found out that I think my grandfather joined a fraternity after he returned from Korea although he'd been in a different school at a different time too and the fraternity's records didn't go back that far.)
Majority of college students in the late 40s early 50s were GI Bill I'm pretty sure.
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  #831  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:47 AM
Drolefille Drolefille is offline
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Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito View Post
Majority of college students in the late 40s early 50s were GI Bill I'm pretty sure.
College students in general or just the guys?

I know there have been hazing studies out there that I'm sure have done better at addressing this than we have. But iI don't really know the stats around hazing.
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  #832  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:49 AM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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Originally Posted by Drolefille View Post
College students in general or just the guys?

I know there have been hazing studies out there that I'm sure have done better at addressing this than we have. But iI don't really know the stats around hazing.
Well a bit of both I would think. Not sure when the percentage of women college students exploded.
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  #833  
Old 07-27-2010, 01:58 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito View Post
Well I think the most prevalent theory is that it was the result of GI Bill soldiers joining fraternities for the comradeship and bringing the hazing practices of the military with them. Not sure how much truth there is to that though.
That partially explains some of the format of underground pledging (and hazing) in BGLOs. The Black soldiers came home with military style tactics such as standing in a line and having a "pledge leader" like the drill sergeant. Some link these back to African traditions, so it is likely a combination of these influences.

The return of BGLO military men also had an impact on BGLO culture beyond pledging and hazing practices.
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  #834  
Old 07-27-2010, 02:01 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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That is one justification for it, but I don't think it's the only one, nor is it the fundamental one. I think more important (if that's the right word) is proving one's self. It's a rite of passage sort of thing, at least for lots of males. The bonding together is a side effect of sorts.

I've said many times that I think efforts to eradicate hazing (which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with vomiting and urination) face a hard time being accepted if alternatives do not take into account the need to prove one's self.
And for lots of females. This is another topic that spans beyond men and fraternities. It is easier to understand that when people think about Greekdom beyond their respective conference or council; and beyond the typical alcohol discussions.

Bonding and rites of passage go together for the most part. Pledges are led to believe that they are earning their letters, earning the respect of the members, and earning the trust and bond of their fellow pledgees.

The age old pledge phrase is that the pledges are being broken down to be built back up.

Last edited by DrPhil; 07-27-2010 at 02:13 AM.
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  #835  
Old 07-27-2010, 03:36 AM
preciousjeni preciousjeni is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.
I appreciate your entire post. Your final point makes a lot of sense.

With women, I think there is a way to deal with people and impart the seriousness of the responsibility of membership without making a point to deconstruct the person. It takes a lot of personal investment and mentorship, though, which is time-consuming and resource draining.

Thinking back on the times I've dealt with interests of my organization (prior to the intake process), I take them very seriously. Over the years, it seems to have become somewhat of a trend with me that, upon initiation, women tell me how intimidating I am when it comes to the sorority.

But, it's not because I'm cruel, disrespectful or antagonistic. It's because my entire composure changes when I'm doing the business of the sorority. I don't chat, I discuss. I'm not happy-go-lucky, I'm deeply engaged.

I want to see women who are as serious as I am, but I don't use my "authority" to deconstruct. I'd rather simply not invite a woman to join.
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  #836  
Old 07-27-2010, 06:47 AM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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Originally Posted by MysticCat View Post
I'm talking about something quite different (although the military perhaps comes the closest to what I'm talking about). I've done this before; I'm going to cut and paste something I wrote in another thread about this:

We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.


Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.
I remember the previous discussion and I do understand your point, with regards to men. I think I've developed a distaste for the idea of "rites of passage" in general because, except for religious rites of passage, there is a negative connotation with them, in my own head. This is simply my visceral, emotional reaction, likely derived from experiences in my own culture where the main rites of passion for women are becoming engaged and getting married... pressures I felt so strongly that I made poor choices just to "prove myself" and which ended up being disastrous. In my eyes, "rites of passage" that we have in our society are really more like milestones: obtaining the driver's license, graduating from high school, graduating from college, getting that first "real" job, etc.

I believe that original discussion was, in part, due to my own concerns about my son going through The Ordeal after my first exposure to OA. While he hasn't chosen to do that yet, I haven't attempted to influence him either way but I still can't say I'm completely comfortable with the idea, I wouldn't stop him. I guess I just have a little too much estrogen to fully "get it"
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  #837  
Old 07-27-2010, 09:28 AM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito View Post
Well I think the most prevalent theory is that it was the result of GI Bill soldiers joining fraternities for the comradeship and bringing the hazing practices of the military with them. Not sure how much truth there is to that though.
Some, but that's not the whole story. Remember that Sigma Nu was founded as a "non-hazing" fraternity in the 1860s. And yes, you do remember that we have discussed before that Harvard expelled a student for hazing in 1684. In all likelihood, fraternities learned hazing from long-established general collegiate hazing and from groups like the Masons and other fraternal organizations.

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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
And for lots of females. This is another topic that spans beyond men and fraternities. It is easier to understand that when people think about Greekdom beyond their respective conference or council; and beyond the typical alcohol discussions.

Bonding and rites of passage go together for the most part. Pledges are led to believe that they are earning their letters, earning the respect of the members, and earning the trust and bond of their fellow pledgees.

The age old pledge phrase is that the pledges are being broken down to be built back up.
I was hoping you'd chime in.

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Originally Posted by AGDee View Post
I believe that original discussion was, in part, due to my own concerns about my son going through The Ordeal after my first exposure to OA. While he hasn't chosen to do that yet, I haven't attempted to influence him either way but I still can't say I'm completely comfortable with the idea, I wouldn't stop him. I guess I just have a little too much estrogen to fully "get it"
Ah, I remember that discussion now.
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  #838  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:05 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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And yes, you do remember that we have discussed before that Harvard expelled a student for hazing in 1684.
That's also what Wikipedia (cringe) says.

I didn't think he was suggesting that hazing itself came from the military. Some hazing practices, including components of the pledgeship, came from the military for some organizations.

Beyond the legality of this topic, I believe this topic boils down to whether you think people haze because they're too lazy to find alternate ways to bring in new members (or team mates, or military people, etc.) OR whether you think that people do NOT haze because they are too lazy to do so because certain forms of hazing highlight hardwork and the "blood, sweat, and tears" necessary to earn your letters. I have heard both and completely understand both sides.
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  #839  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:21 AM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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That's also what Wikipedia (cringe) says.
LOL. I know, but when it came up before I did check sources and confirm. Source 1. Source 2.

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I didn't think he was suggesting that hazing itself came from the military. Some hazing practices, including components of the pledgeship, came from the military for some organizations.
Very true. But I have heard the claim that hazing didn't really exist in fraternities until after WWII, which is not true. I think I was reacting more to the latter claim.
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  #840  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:31 AM
Psi U MC Vito Psi U MC Vito is offline
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LOL. I know, but when it came up before I did check sources and confirm. Source 1. Source 2.

Very true. But I have heard the claim that hazing didn't really exist in fraternities until after WWII, which is not true. I think I was reacting more to the latter claim.
No I wasn't saying that, especially since I remember having that discussion about Harvard. I do think it became more prevelant and visible after WWIII, but again not sure if I am right or not.

ETA: And even in the case of the old historical college wide hazing examples, it was the same thing as is often the case today. You need to earn your stripes so to say, the right to call yourself a member of say Harvard.
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Last edited by Psi U MC Vito; 07-27-2010 at 10:33 AM.
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