Gays in fraternites (pt. 2)

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I have no idea what the "rights" are in my organization, but I don't recall that it ever made a difference.

I'm sure there are gay guys in southern fraternities. If I had a fraternity brother who turned out to be gay, would I suddenly hate him? No of course not (unless I hated him in the fraternity). But would I suddenly want to hang out with him and his boyfriend? No, I'd feel the same way I'd feel if he acted like that in undergrad.

I don't think gay people are a plague I can't be around, so it doesn't mean anything that someone in the closet was a normal brother. But an openly gay lifestyle clashes with the predominate values (and interests---girls) of my fraternity.

Shinerbock;
I do understand and respect your comment as your current POV on this board.
So please do not take this the wrong way.
I do have gay and lesbian friends. As I posted, a few of my Brothers came out after I graduated. And as my group of associates, acquaintances, and friends grow after school, I found that several of them were gay as well.
My fiancé has family and friends who are gay.
And they are not "making love" in front of me. We hang out. Any physical "action" is what you would see between friends. Or between team members on a football or baseball team. Or even a Fraternity.
And just as I have no need to say or indicate in anyway what takes place between my fiancé and I in private, neither do they.
Just something to think about.
BTB a wedding that I was truly honored to be invited, bear witness to, and participate in was the wedding of my fiancés best friend from grad school and his boyfriend.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Shinerbock;
I do understand and respect your comment as your current POV on this board.
So please do not take this the wrong way.
I do have gay and lesbian friends. As I posted, a few of my Brothers came out after I graduated. And as my group of associates, acquaintances, and friends grow after school, I found that several of them were gay as well.
My fiancé has family and friends who are gay.
And they are not "making love" in front of me. We hang out. Any physical "action" is what you would see between friends. Or between team members on a football or baseball team. Or even a Fraternity.
And just as I have no need to say or indicate in anyway what takes place between my fiancé and I in private, neither do they.
Just something to think about.
BTB a wedding that I was truly honored to be invited, bear witness to, and participate in was the wedding of my fiancés best friend from grad school and his boyfriend.

I thought it was pretty apparent that I'm well aware that gay people aren't affectionate with each other at all times. But what about when a guy in my fraternity gets a serious boyfriend? Are they just going to avoid the fraternity house? Doesn't seem like something they'd want to do. What about a date party? I'm not saying that gay acts are all that weirds me out, I'm saying gay relationships do. I don't look down on them because I find the participants inferior, they simply seem unnatural to me. I can be around people in a gay relationship if need be, but I'd really rather not.

Take a relatively calm (not overly affectionate) couple from my days in the fraternity. They're not constantly physical, but sometimes they might be, and that should be ok. But even more so, you can usually tell they're a couple even though they're not disgusting to be around, and two guys acting like a couple is simply awkward for most people I was in the fraternity with. It is weird to us in the fraternity, and I highly suspect it would be uncomfortable for the gay guy.

I'm sure you were honored to be a part of your friend's wedding. Actually, I'm sure they're probably both great individuals. But for me personally, it would have to be someone extremely dear to me for me to in any way participate. I'm not discounting the possibility, but I believe homosexuality is wrong, and therefore I'd be unlikely to participate in something like that. I of course would be concerned that my friend getting married/union-ed wouldn't respect that and it could cause problems, but he has his beliefs, and I have mine.

This is kind of off topic since I'm a woman in a sorority but, the president of my sorority is a lesbian and is actually dating another one of my sisters. (they were going out before joining). Yes, it was awkward when I first heard about it but they are not that obvious. I just recently had to tell 2 of my sisters that pledged with me. Just because somebody is gay or lesbian does not meant that they are going to make moves after you.

[barbino]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

ABSOLUTELY........................................ .....THE BEST!!!!!!

[SECdomination]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

Maybe you should just mind your own business about people's sex lives then.

Maybe you misunderstood me. Other people's sex lives is the last thing I want to know about.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

There are flamboyant and stereotypical heterosexuals just as there are flamboyant and stereotypical homosexuals. There are heterosexuals who try to force their lifestyle and viewpoints on everyone else and there are homosexuals who do the same.

Despite that fact, heterosexuals don't get pigeon holed and neither should homosexuals. Someone who has truly been exposed to the diversity of opinions held by people of different sexual orientations and masculinities-femininities will understand that.

I think you probably already knew this, but that does not describe me at all.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by AEcutiePhi

This is kind of off topic since I'm a woman in a sorority but, the president of my sorority is a lesbian and is actually dating another one of my sisters. (they were going out before joining).

This is interesting. I've always wondered about the types of issues that arise from having 2 sisters dating. Like what happens if two dating sisters break up? Or what about house-related issues? Like, I know in our orgs we have rules against males in sisters' bedrooms, but what happens in this case?

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Maybe you misunderstood me. Other people's sex lives is the last thing I want to know about.

I think you probably already knew this, but that does not describe me at all.

LOL, SEC. Some of your posts make me but I also tend to be a little tickled by your honesty and obvious self-awareness.

[jlenoconel]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

This is interesting because there are homosexuals across the spectrum.

Liberal, radical, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Independent...yada yada yada....of course it is more difficult to be an out of the closet homosexual if you're pushing for traditional marriage, which can explain why Conservative Republicans get outted by the media.

There are flamboyant and stereotypical heterosexuals just as there are flamboyant and stereotypical homosexuals. There are heterosexuals who try to force their lifestyle and viewpoints on everyone else and there are homosexuals who do the same.

Despite that fact, heterosexuals don't get pigeon holed and neither should homosexuals. Someone who has truly been exposed to the diversity of opinions held by people of different sexual orientations and masculinities-femininities will understand that.

I agree with this. Oh, and the person who tried calling me Sally or nelly or whatever can go screw. I have a right to be on this board because I am in college and I wanna have a say. I understand what a fraternity is and I understand how "macho" its supposed to be. If I was in a fraternity, my boyfriend or whatever wouldn't be showing up, why would he? Its up to people how they feel anyway, I obviously can't stop what you feel. I would just like to see the day when you are in the position of being ridiculed for some reason and see how you respond. Also, I am not really politically active in any type of community i.e. the gay community because I don't think that just because I am homosexual, that I should be in any community. But, lets say hypothetically that I wanted to join a fraternity, would the fact I prefer men get me kicked out. Even if I didn't have a boyfriend or whatever and kept my sex life private.

The funny thing is, most people (mainly other men) are afraid of homosexuality because of what has been portrayed in the media, or by gossip. Did you even know that some gay men don't like or engage in anal sex? Did you know there are plenty of men out there who engage in homosexual acts in similar social circles to yours but clock themselves as straight? Do you know the amount of men who get paid to perform homosexual acts for money who say they are straight?!! You know very little by the looks of things. I am not effeminate buddy, sorry to rain on YOUR parade. I lift weights and I am not really interested in fashion or anything like that. I can be sensitive, but so what? I am young and inexperienced when it comes to some things in life.

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

[jlenoconel]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I thought it was pretty apparent that I'm well aware that gay people aren't affectionate with each other at all times. But what about when a guy in my fraternity gets a serious boyfriend? Are they just going to avoid the fraternity house? Doesn't seem like something they'd want to do. What about a date party? I'm not saying that gay acts are all that weirds me out, I'm saying gay relationships do. I don't look down on them because I find the participants inferior, they simply seem unnatural to me. I can be around people in a gay relationship if need be, but I'd really rather not.

Take a relatively calm (not overly affectionate) couple from my days in the fraternity. They're not constantly physical, but sometimes they might be, and that should be ok. But even more so, you can usually tell they're a couple even though they're not disgusting to be around, and two guys acting like a couple is simply awkward for most people I was in the fraternity with. It is weird to us in the fraternity, and I highly suspect it would be uncomfortable for the gay guy.

I'm sure you were honored to be a part of your friend's wedding. Actually, I'm sure they're probably both great individuals. But for me personally, it would have to be someone extremely dear to me for me to in any way participate. I'm not discounting the possibility, but I believe homosexuality is wrong, and therefore I'd be unlikely to participate in something like that. I of course would be concerned that my friend getting married/union-ed wouldn't respect that and it could cause problems, but he has his beliefs, and I have mine.

I actually agree with the not bringing your boyfriend into the fraternity thing, but is it OK to bring your girlfriend in really? I am not condemning you for your response, just want to hear what you have to say?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

Fraternities are obviously a very elitist, Republican type of organization. Sad really, because if you guys are Christians but still excluding people for small things like their sexuality, then you are fools. Jesus told us not to judge others but obviously you are still doing that. Its OK anyway, I will never meet any of you guys ever anyway, so its no skin off of my nose. You can feel the way you do, its your choice. But ask yourself a real question - what is it about homosexuality that makes you so nervous? I mean nervous enough to exclude another human being from your special, little organization. I don't allow people to make fun of me for preferring men, I have standards and I don't accept everything about the gay community either. Maybe one day I will join a fraternity or something similar, and I will keep my sexuality private... out of respect of others, not because I think its shameful. Thats only if all the straight guys don't go on about fucking tits and stuff like that all day because I would be mightily offended if I hear that shit, degrading women and all!

Define "judging." I don't think I'm a better person than a gay person. I don't think I'm a better Christian than a gay person. In my mind, it is one less sin I'm not committing, but I'm sure I make up for it, and I don't think being gay is more of a sin than any of the ones I commit consistently. But not judging doesn't mean accepting. Jesus loved and associated with people who sinned, but that doesn't mean he condoned their sins. Of course this probably doesn't mean anything to you because you don't believe homosexuality is a sin, but I do, so that is my take on this. So no, I don't think I'm judging you when I don't invite a gay person into my fraternity. If there is a kid who is a bad student, I probably wouldn't want him in my fraternity. That doesn't mean I won't associate with him, and it doesn't mean I think I'm better than he is. It means I don't think he's a good fit for this organization.

I'm not nervous about homosexuality. I have no idea why I am naturally repulsed by it, but I am, just the same. I also noticed you said "exclud[ing] another human being," and I don't get what you're saying here. We aren't excluding gay people from society. We're not saying you can't go to college, we're not saying you can't work here. We're saying it is unlikely you'll be a member of a fraternity, which in my situation, is analogous to a private social club. I wouldn't knowingly invite liberals to join my imaginary conservative club, and I'm not going to knowingly invite gay guys to join a group of similarly-minded straight guys (but one could be gay!!! I know, unlikely,doesn't matter anyway, good try). If we need to let gay people in because they're "human beings" then we should let everyone in, and thus, what the hell is the point of a fraternity. I can be around "everyone" by stepping outside my door.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

I actually agree with the not bringing your boyfriend into the fraternity thing, but is it OK to bring your girlfriend in really? I am not condemning you for your response, just want to hear what you have to say?

I don't know, some people may be a lot more formalistic. I'm not talking about to chapter or other exclusively fraternity functions. I'm talking about sitting at the house and watching a game or going out with a bunch of brothers to the bar or to play golf. So sure, it is perfectly fine to bring a girlfriend to those functions. And I think it would be very awkward, for us and the gay person, if it was some unspoken rule that he can be in the fraternity, but he can't bring his S.O. around or out with us. Considering that may be a big part of his life, I have no idea why he'd want to join.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

Maybe you should just mind your own business about people's sex lives then.

maybe you shouldn't join an organization where a significant portion of the membership vehemently disagrees with your lifestyle. you're joining them. they're not joining you.

[jlenoconel]

What lifestyle? My lifestyle is the same as yours except I prefer men! So if you prefer black women over white women, do you not have a lifestyle!?

[starang21]

Originally Posted by jlenoconel

What lifestyle? My lifestyle is the same as yours except I prefer men! So if you prefer black women over white women, do you not have a lifestyle!?

no, it's not. you're delusional. and you're trying to join an organization where a significant portion of the membership disagrees with your lifestyle. and yes, that means they disagree with you liking men.

and i do prefer black women over white women. why would i join an organization where most of the membership would vilify me because of such? if you're so adamant in going against the grain, then you're gonna have to deal with the repurcussions of such action and thus should quit complaining. you know what you're getting into.

[jlenoconel]

OK, so its ok for you to date black women and me not date a guy. It would have been funny to see you grow up in the 60's!