The Confederate Flag

[ElieM]

I wish the confederacy had gone with the flag with the crescent and palmetto on it. I wonder if the people who use the flag now as a symbol of "white pride" would feel as comfortable using it with a "muslim" symbol on it

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Ten thumbs up to this. Anyone who wants to respect Confederate history without invoking segregationist terror has an array of flags to choose from. The KKK never lynched anyone while flying Bonnie Blue. So if you decide to fly the one they did use...as far as I'm concerned, the racist message is loud and clear.



I really don't get it. I have gratitude to all my ancestors, but if I find out that any of them fought on behalf of the Leninists back in Russia, I won't be flying their hammer-and-sickle flag. I won't call myself a Daughter of the October Revolution, even though I technically won't be able to help it. Even if they made selfless sacrifices on behalf of their ideals, even if the Tsar was an autocrat who starved his people, even if I love Russian culture, I couldn't be proud that my family fought in the army to establish the Soviet system. Interesting historical fact, sure...but proud of that? No.

Absolutely agree with Low C Sharp here.

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

My father is half German and there was a time many years ago when distant relatives from Germany wanted to get in touch. It was easy enough to figure out that they had been Nazis. My father's reaction was "they're not my f***ing relatives!"

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Absolutely agree with Low C Sharp here.

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

My father is half German and there was a time many years ago when distant relatives from Germany wanted to get in touch. It was easy enough to figure out that they had been Nazis. My father's reaction was "they're not my f***ing relatives!"

EXACTLY. I think people just make excuses and hide behind "those were the times" type of rhetoric. Family or not, heritage or not...wrong is wrong, today and yesterday.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

With that said, this particular woman was being an asshole and doing it to prove she has the right to do it.

Exactly. I defend her right to fly the flag but just because someone *can* do something, it doesn't mean they *should* do it. It sounds like she was just trying to get a rise out of her neighbors to me.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

For clarity's sake:

This form of the swastika



Not this form of the swastika




/turning into MysticCat

Thanks for clarifying but given the context of the conversation if someone couldn't differentiate the type of swastika I was referring to they should probably log off

Someone who sports the Confederate Flag is not automatically "trouble." Such labeling of people is problematic because it is above and beyond the labeling of the items themselves. It is different than a gang symbol and a Nazi symbol.

I was speaking very generally there. Like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't see the Confederate flag as something of pride nor oppression... I'm quite indifferent to the topic. I personally don't think that they are trouble, nor do I hold the Confederate flag in the same regard as Nazi or gang symbolism. Some on the other hand (as evident from some of the replies to this thread) do though.

And only an idiot would sport a gang symbol on his bumper, if that's true. The police better be watching him.

It's quite true. It's how they identify themselves fellow gang members or to rival gang members that a certain car's load or occupants is being protected. It's not the "typical" gang signs that are displayed but rather more innocuous symbols such as





And yes, law enforcement is aware of that these symbols are being used.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Thanks for clarifying but given the context of the conversation if someone couldn't differentiate the type of swastika I was referring to they should probably log off



I was speaking very generally there. Like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't see the Confederate flag as something of pride nor oppression... I'm quite indifferent to the topic. I personally don't think that they are trouble, nor do I hold the Confederate flag in the same regard as Nazi or gang symbolism. Some on the other hand (as evident from some of the replies to this thread) do though.



It's quite true. It's how they identify themselves fellow gang members or to rival gang members that a certain car's load or occupants is being protected. It's not the "typical" gang signs that are displayed but rather more innocuous symbols such as





And yes, law enforcement is aware of that these symbols are being used.

Srsly, those have all ended up manipulated on unfortunate Rush t-shirts.




This is how I like to see the "Confederate Flag" with Bo, Luke, and Daisy Duke, oh and maybe Flash the hound dog. I'm in hot pursuit! Not that hot mess with Jessica Simpson, ewwww.

Forreal though, my eldest sister had some Tiger Beat pictures of John Schneider. I remember when she got married and moved out we found some of Ponch from CHiPS, but she was far more into Larry Wilcox.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Really? Even though both were used in living memory during the 20th century to display the bearer's support for a nationwide campaign of race-based intimidation, expulsion, and murder? You don't see any parallel? What was the Holocaust but lynching on an industrial scale?

As terrible as both were I do believe that you are comparing molehills to mountains. The Klan (whom I'm assuming you are referring to in regard to the Confederate flag) has historically always been a small right wing fringe group in regards to the general American populace (if they were so well respected or welcomed in the community they wouldn't need to wear hoods). While there have been a few state governors, U.S. Congressman, Senators, and local elected officials who had been members or sympathizers to the cause of the KKK, the U.S. government never had a state sponsored policy or practice of genocide of anyone post Civil War. The Third Reich, on the other hand did, and not just in Germany but any European country they rolled through. Two thirds of all European Jews, millions of Polish, Russian, homosexuals, disabled people, religious minorities, etc..... 17 million total in just a few years.

I'm not trying to have a battle of atrocities with you, but to compare a Confederate to a Nazi is a comparing a molehill to a mountain.

[DubaiSis]

Seriously, some gangbangers are using the John Deere logo? I am SOOOOO laughing out loud right now. I am from the heart of John Deere country and I keep thinking of my BIL as a secret gang banger instead of a corn and soybean farmer.

Also not having a dog in this fight, I think if you want to express your southern pride there are about 10,000 ways you can do it besides waving a rebel flag, which as discussed above isn't even technically an official conferate flag. Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Why would you want to celebrate your southern'ness in such a hateful and negative way?

My husband used to work with a Jewish guy (yes, here in Dubai) whose family apparently were slave owners somewhere in the south, although they are currently and for some time from the San Francisco area. He feels the need to display the rebel flag and brag that Jews were slave owners too. Wow. Good for him. But he's exactly that guy. People are going to be nice to him even though he's in a place where I'd try to keep it on the downlow, but is a huge Star of David around his neck necessary? Only if you're TRYING to cause trouble. And that's all the rebel flag does as far as I'm concerned.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I'm not trying to have a battle of atrocities with you, but to compare a Confederate to a Nazi is a comparing a molehill to a mountain.

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

It's more than just slavery, violence, rape and murder. The rebels did have some legitimate reasons to want to break from the Union other than to commit...rape, murder, torture, genocide.....

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Thanks for clarifying but given the context of the conversation if someone couldn't differentiate the type of swastika I was referring to they should probably log off

Yet a lot of people would be offended if they saw the other swastika on a (particularly white) person's flag (although I do not think they resemble). A lot of people would need someone to explain what it is and still some people would think it is too similar to display. That happens a lot with symbols that resemble each other. You can preach the "it's not the same thing" until you're blue in the face and get tired of explaining it to people.

[KillarneyRose]

The John Deere logo is used as a gang symbol??? What's next?


I have PMS and I'm going to kill you!



Beware, I am going to poop on you!



Fear me, even though I have a teeny weenie!

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

Over the span of time that slavery existed, how many slaves died in transport, were hunted down and killed if they tried to escape, were tortured to death, or died of a variety of diseases as a direct result of their slavery? My guess (non-scientific) is it exceeds the holocaust.

To put a positive spin on why the south wanted to separate and why 130 years later people want to celebrate that I think is a bogus excuse. Going back to the ever-dreaded nazi comparison, the reason they needed to get rid of the Jews was because they were killing the economy. That was part of their thinking... everything that was wrong with Germany was the Jews' fault. So you can say the Swastika represents Germany's economic rebirth if you want. It still means 6 million dead to me. And the rebel flag to me represents a long and abiding dislike of personal freedom of all kinds, hate in it's most uneducated, head in the sand form.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

For clarity's sake:

This form of the swastika



Not this form of the swastika




/turning into MysticCat

You win awesome points for the day!

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

I really don't know what to say other than it is obvious that you don't get it, and to be honest, I don't have the energy right now to try and explain it. Like some others here, I tire of non-Southerners dismissing the whole thing with an "I just don't get it."

Suffice it to say that symbols can have different meanings to different people. The wise and thoughful person is aware of that and takes into account both what they themselves understand a symbol to mean and what they know others might understand the symbol to mean. And that can work both ways.

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

Again, flags represent different things to different people.

I'm sure that you know that participation in the slave trade and all the atrocities that went with it was not limited to Southerners. It involved people from all over America (not to mention the British and many other non-Americans), and it was sanctioned and supported by federal law. Does that mean the American flag is tainted?

To be clear: I'm not so much trying to defend any Confederate flag, much less the Confederacy itself, as I am trying to highlight this point: I think one of the biggest hinderances to understanding other people or other perspectives is the phrase "I just don't get it," or its cousin, "I just don't understand how people can think that." If no effort has been put into trying to understand another's perspective, it's a cop-out and that just reinforces one's own biases. Understanding another's perspective doesn't mean agreement with it, but it does mean being open to the possiblity that maybe, just maybe, there is more than one way to see things.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Again, flags represent different things to different people.

I am not affected by the flag, as I understand that not everyone flying it is proclaiming his/her racism. Yes, there are other symbols that could be used, but these individuals have chosen this one.

I've lived in the north and the south, and I never got the "OMG look at the flag. Let him/her show up in MY neighborhood and we'll have a rumble!" vibe. I'm not sure where folks are getting that.