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  #31  
Old 07-24-2020, 08:23 PM
Happy Alum Happy Alum is offline
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A very general example of why legacies might not be required to be at the top of the two bid lists.
1500 PNMs
100 on first bid list are legacies.
101- 200 are also legacies at the top of the second bid list.
201-1500 are also on second list.
Some legacies had graciously indicated they found their home elsewhere but legacy at the top of the first and if necessary second bid list had dictated this placement.
201 was the first available spot for a non legacy.
The chapter might have wanted 201 to 1500 more than 101 to 200 but had to follow legacies at the top of the bid list policy.
I know this doesn't happen everywhere.
As much as it pains me, no special treatment might be better.
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  #32  
Old 07-24-2020, 08:52 PM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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Originally Posted by Happy Alum View Post
A very general example of why legacies might not be required to be at the top of the two bid lists.
1500 PNMs
100 on first bid list are legacies.
101- 200 are also legacies at the top of the second bid list.
201-1500 are also on second list.
Some legacies had graciously indicated they found their home elsewhere but legacy at the top of the first and if necessary second bid list had dictated this placement.
201 was the first available spot for a non legacy.
The chapter might have wanted 201 to 1500 more than 101 to 200 but had to follow legacies at the top of the bid list policy.
I know this doesn't happen everywhere.
As much as it pains me, no special treatment might be better.
If the legacies indicated they wanted another chapter by ranking them first, that is where they would be matched, they would be removed from the first bid list of their legacy chapter, and those on the 2nd would move up. Far from "not happening everywhere", I'd be willing to be it hardly ever happens. Also, you are not accounting for legacies which were dropped after first invitational round. Read enough recruitment stories, be active in recruitment, talk to your former students who are pnms, and you'll quickly discover that even with preferential treatment, plenty of legacies are dropped before preference. It's setting up a strawman to say that for lo these many years, legacies were never cut and thus were depriving some other deserving pnm of a spot. If anything, the preferential treatment meant that legacies were more closely scrutinized after the one courtesy invitational, as they needed to be cut before pref.
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Last edited by SWTXBelle; 07-24-2020 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  #33  
Old 07-24-2020, 09:12 PM
celebcj celebcj is offline
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My whole thing about the Theta decision is that it came from Grand Council without a fraternity wide vote.
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  #34  
Old 07-24-2020, 10:58 PM
thetalady thetalady is offline
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My whole thing about the Theta decision is that it came from Grand Council without a fraternity wide vote.
YES YES YES!!!!!
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  #35  
Old 07-25-2020, 08:45 AM
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Exactamente!
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  #36  
Old 07-25-2020, 08:48 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by celebcj View Post
My whole thing about the Theta decision is that it came from Grand Council without a fraternity wide vote.
But what do the bylaws say?

Boards of directors are entitled to make decisions for membership organizations in between national conventions.

Additionally, if the rules governing legacies are policies and not bylaws, it's doubly in their purview to make the decision.
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  #37  
Old 07-25-2020, 10:44 AM
Happy Alum Happy Alum is offline
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Question

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Originally Posted by SWTXBelle View Post
If the legacies indicated they wanted another chapter by ranking them first, that is where they would be matched, they would be removed from the first bid list of their legacy chapter, and those on the 2nd would move up. Far from "not happening everywhere", I'd be willing to be it hardly ever happens. Also, you are not accounting for legacies which were dropped after first invitational round. Read enough recruitment stories, be active in recruitment, talk to your former students who are pnms, and you'll quickly discover that even with preferential treatment, plenty of legacies are dropped before preference. It's setting up a strawman to say that for lo these many years, legacies were never cut and thus were depriving some other deserving pnm of a spot. If anything, the preferential treatment meant that legacies were more closely scrutinized after the one courtesy invitational, as they needed to be cut before pref.
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear that I was giving a very general example of a fictional sorority's fictional legacies at the top of the bid list policy.

Legacies would be at the top of the two bid lists that are submitted even if they had indicated they found a home elsewhere. We all know NPC doesn't get into membership selection.
In the ficticious example no legacies are dropped because of a ficticious policy that legacies are at the top of the bid list.

In real life I know the kindest thing to do is drop a legacy after the first round if she has no chance of a bid. This was a very general example of why it might not be a good idea to have a legacies go to the top of the bid list policy.
Moving on.
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  #38  
Old 07-25-2020, 10:53 AM
GreekOne GreekOne is offline
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Originally Posted by Happy Alum View Post
A very general example of why legacies might not be required to be at the top of the two bid lists.
1500 PNMs
100 on first bid list are legacies.
101- 200 are also legacies at the top of the second bid list.
201-1500 are also on second list.
Some legacies had graciously indicated they found their home elsewhere but legacy at the top of the first and if necessary second bid list had dictated this placement.
201 was the first available spot for a non legacy.
The chapter might have wanted 201 to 1500 more than 101 to 200 but had to follow legacies at the top of the bid list policy.
I know this doesn't happen everywhere.
As much as it pains me, no special treatment might be better.
This makes absolutely no sense. The bid list only includes the women that attended preference round, which is roughly double quota. The legacies that the chapter has decided are not a match have been dropped well before this point, as have the legacies that decided the chapter wasn't a match for them. In reality, if a chapter has a new member class of 60, you might have 10 that are legacies. Let's say one or two of those would have made the second bid list instead of the first without the legacy status. It is a very small number that this guarantee would actually help. Furthermore, with quota additions the women on the second list are often matched anyway.

I just think what is potentially lost for the sorority, the pnms and their family members over a lifetime is far more damaging than what is potentially gained.
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2020, 12:28 PM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Alum View Post
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear that I was giving a very general example of a fictional sorority's fictional legacies at the top of the bid list policy.

Legacies would be at the top of the two bid lists that are submitted even if they had indicated they found a home elsewhere. We all know NPC doesn't get into membership selection.
In the ficticious example no legacies are dropped because of a ficticious policy that legacies are at the top of the bid list.

In real life I know the kindest thing to do is drop a legacy after the first round if she has no chance of a bid. This was a very general example of why it might not be a good idea to have a legacies go to the top of the bid list policy.
Moving on.
I don't think you know how RFM works, or you would have understood why your ficticious (sic) example is not accurate. It's more than fictitious - it's absolutely wrong. You want to move on, so I'll just suggest looking up RFM.
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Last edited by SWTXBelle; 07-25-2020 at 12:39 PM.
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2020, 12:49 PM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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I feel like we're all watching the alternative endings of "Clue". At any rate, if you want an example for the sake of discussion, let's have a fictitious run down of how it could go.

Quota is 100
Sororities will have 2 bid lists, of 50 pnms each.
Let us say 10 are legacies.
First bid list - 10 legacies, 40 non-legacies.
Of that first bid list, 5 put their legacy chapter as their first choice. They are matched.
5 on the second bid list then move to the first bid list.
The remaining 5 legacies will either match with their first choice, or go through RFM process until they match.
While it is possible they end up with a bid from the legacy chapter which they had not put first, it is not assured.

I realize there are a handful of chapters which could fill a pledge class with legacies. They are the exception, not the rule, and all that means is that the legacies will be scrutinized far more thoroughly earlier in the process in order to either fully commit to them, or to release them.

I feel there are better ways of addressing the need to make sure membership is open and accepting.
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  #41  
Old 07-25-2020, 01:01 PM
SweetHomeStL SweetHomeStL is offline
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Originally Posted by SWTXBelle View Post
I don't think you know how RFM works, or you would have understood why your ficticious (sic) example is not accurate. It's more than fictitious - it's absolutely wrong. You want to move on, so I'll just suggest looking up RFM.
Agreed! How about this for a more realistic example using those numbers?

1) 1500 PNM’s registered and attending Round 1. Panhellenic knows that based on their previous numbers, quota will be around 100.
2) ABC chapter has about 100 legacies
3) ABC is a pretty strong recruiting chapter & RFM says they can invite 600 to Round 2. Using the old legacy model, they have 100 legacy invites & 500 additional women at Round 2.
4) They cut some legacies (& are dropped by some of their legacies), so there are 65 legacies and 335 non-legacies at their Round 3 parties.
5) They cut some more legacies (& are dropped by some of their legacies) again so there are 200 invited to Preference with 40 of them legacies and 160 not.
6) Traditional model of legacies - everyone is on the bid list with legacies making up less than half of Bid List #1 and none at all on Bid List #2.
7) PNM’s rank their favorites and not all legacies rank their legacy house #1, so maybe your quota of 100 has 30 legacies matched and 70 non-legacies matched.

Obviously, the chapter could also make much larger cuts to their legacy list after Round 2 & Round 3 and end up with only a handful of legacies even attending Pref. Even in a weaker recruiting chapter that has to invite larger numbers back each round, they still can choose not to invite them to Pref or more likely their legacy would have released them already. How many times do we preach to our chapters that if you invite them to Pref, you must see them as a sister because they are going on your bid list.

So it is just hard for me to understand why we can’t have common courtesy of putting legacies on your 1st bid list. If the chapter doesn’t vibe with the girl, don’t have her at your Preference party at all.
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  #42  
Old 07-25-2020, 06:18 PM
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Sciencewoman Sciencewoman is offline
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Originally Posted by SweetHomeStL View Post
I’m still over here in the “alumnae recommendations are mandatory to receive a bid” camp being WAY more inclusive inhibiting than a legacy policy. Can we please eliminate that instead of legacies (or at least as well)?
Agreed. We don't have that stipulation, but I agree it creates more exclusion, because it applies to every PNM, not just legacies.

Most of the legacies we see in the chapter I advise are in-house sibling legacies. Those outweigh generational legacies by far. If sister is currently in house or a recent alumna still known to actives, a policy change probably won't make much difference in the special consideration paid to Suzie Sibling, because there is reluctance to offend Big Sister. And, those legacies do tend to be involved and I can't think of one who's disaffiliated.
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  #43  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:41 AM
shadokat shadokat is offline
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THIS 100%!!!! If someone comes to preference, they have a chance, however minute, of getting a bid, so you need to figure it all out by then, or you will risk having someone as a sister who you may not want. Too bad, so sad, but that's the rule.

And again, NONE of this is inclusion. It's a smoke screen to be relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetHomeStL View Post
Agreed! How about this for a more realistic example using those numbers?

So it is just hard for me to understand why we canít have common courtesy of putting legacies on your 1st bid list. If the chapter doesnít vibe with the girl, donít have her at your Preference party at all.
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  #44  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:56 AM
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And again, NONE of this is inclusion. It's a smoke screen to be relevant.
Yes! Yes!!
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  #45  
Old 07-27-2020, 11:44 AM
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None of these policies will SOLVE our lack of inclusion.

Many little tiny steps make great strides.
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