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  #61  
Old 07-01-2020, 09:43 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by Sororitysock View Post
I don't have a problem with dropping legacies who you know won't fit after the first round, but it's that dropping after preference that bothers me.

Some southern chapters have been dropping legacies after first round for several years; all with the blessing of the HQ. those are the chapters where the number of legacies rushing comes or even exceeds expected quota. Otherwise those chapters and pledge classes would be composed of all legacies.
^^^ All this!
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  #62  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:32 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is online now
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.
Right, the last thing we need is to be the evenings entertainment.




I understand that I donít have a horse in the race and my organization does not have special legacy policies, so I donít have an opinion either way.

But, please let me know if Iím wrong. Iím trying to understand:

The nature of recruitment is the mutual selection and the importance of ďfitĒ in a chapter, right? So naturally, there will always be legacies who will not end up in their legacy chapter(s), based on fit or numbers, but there will be plenty that do, because the chapter wanted them and they wanted the chapter. Iím assuming in the past the legacies was put on the top of the bid list after Pref, even if the chapter loved other PNMís more.

So all this is to ask (and again, Iím just trying to understand) if a chapter loves a PNM, regardless of her legacy status, isnít that who they would ultimately want on the top of their bid list? If the legacy is a great fit, it seems like she would be extended a bid either way. Shouldnít the individual chapters be able to make those choices?
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  #63  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:37 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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If the chapter loves the legacy PNM, they know that they better love her a lot because she will be on the top of that list.
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  #64  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:57 PM
Sororitysock Sororitysock is offline
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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
Right, the last thing we need is to be the evenings entertainment.




I understand that I donít have a horse in the race and my organization does not have special legacy policies, so I donít have an opinion either way.

But, please let me know if Iím wrong. Iím trying to understand:

The nature of recruitment is the mutual selection and the importance of ďfitĒ in a chapter, right? So naturally, there will always be legacies who will not end up in their legacy chapter(s), based on fit or numbers, but there will be plenty that do, because the chapter wanted them and they wanted the chapter. Iím assuming in the past the legacies was put on the top of the bid list after Pref, even if the chapter loved other PNMís more.

So all this is to ask (and again, Iím just trying to understand) if a chapter loves a PNM, regardless of her legacy status, isnít that who they would ultimately want on the top of their bid list? If the legacy is a great fit, it seems like she would be extended a bid either way. Shouldnít the individual chapters be able to make those choices?
If a chapter is doing recruitment right, they believe every one of the women coming to their preference parties will be a good fit and they love them. Now, comparably there may be objective differences between two PNMs, it it's not like they're going to have a bunch of 2.5 GPA PNMs when their minimum GPA is a 3.3. So not all PNMs are created equal and legacy status is one of those things that under most policies would give a woman an extra advantage, just like, for instance, a 4.0 GPA may add an extra advantage to a PNM for a super academically oriented chapters.
  #65  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:59 PM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.
"There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us" and this is "unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums" and now their effort and money "won't count"? You make it sound like alumnae are trying to buy their daughter's way into a chapter and this is the only benefit in membership they have left. If that's the case, I guess my membership and donations are meaningless because I don't have daughters. I don't know if it was your intention to say this, but wow this sounded all kinds of wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sororitysock View Post
I don't have a problem with dropping legacies who you know won't fit after the first round, but it's that dropping after preference that bothers me.

Some southern chapters have been dropping legacies after first round for several years; all with the blessing of the HQ. those are the chapters where the number of legacies rushing comes or even exceeds expected quota. Otherwise those chapters and pledge classes would be composed of all legacies.
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
^^^ All this!
Hey, we agree on something! I could get on board with the idea of a legacy policy that doesn't require carrying anyone through first round but that gives "preferential treatment" to legacies at pref. I do still think there will be some angry moms during first round wondering why their legacy daughters weren't given a chance, but clearly the anger level increases as rounds go on.

I guess the one reason I can't totally get on board with this concept though is the nagging question I keep coming back to: who's actually upset about this? Is it the legacy who was released, or mom who always pictured her daughter joining ABC sorority?

If it's only the latter, why are we clinging to these policies?
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Last edited by carnation; 07-01-2020 at 11:22 PM.
  #66  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:22 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post
"There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us" and this is "unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums" and now their effort and money "won't count"? You make it sound like alumnae are trying to buy their daughter's way into a chapter and this is the only benefit in membership they have left. If that's the case, I guess my membership and donations are meaningless because I don't have daughters. I don't know if it was your intention to say this, but wow this sounded all kinds of wrong.

Hey, we agree on something! I could get on board with the idea of a legacy policy that doesn't require carrying anyone through first round but that gives "preferential treatment" to legacies at pref. I do still think there will be some angry moms during first round wondering why their legacy daughters weren't given a chance, but clearly the anger level increases as rounds go on.

I guess the one reason I can't totally get on board with this concept though is the nagging question I keep coming back to: who's actually upset about this? Is it the legacy who was released, or mom who always pictured her daughter joining ABC sorority?

If it's only the latter, why are we clinging to these policies?

Sometimes an alum works hard for a nearby chapter in hopes that they'll notice her daughter, in addition to wanting to work for her sorority. At times it works-- the chapter notices her work ethic, meets her daughter, and likes her. This past week, I've seen a lot of people sneer at women who hope or had hoped that their daughters would pledge their group and there is NOTHING wrong with that. They cherished their days as actives and would love to be there to initiate their daughters.

Sometimes the daughter wants this too and sometimes it's only mom. I have seen this with sisters too; sometimes they want to be sorority sisters as well but sometimes the younger one seeks something different.

As far as not continuing to support a chapter who dropped her daughter? I understand that. I know 3 different women who were working in their sorority chapter's kitchen during recruitment when someone came back and told them that the chapter had cut their daughter. Every one of those women left immediately and when their daughters pledged other sororities, the moms immediately started working their hearts out for the other sororities. Not a person who knew any of these women, both moms and daughters, faulted the moms for never darkening the doors of their chapters again.
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  #67  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:44 PM
SweetHomeStL SweetHomeStL is offline
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I have been reading all of the no-legacy threads and debating whether to respond, but I think it bears hearing. So here is a little of my Greek life story.

I was the first in my family to go to college and therefore the first to join a sorority. Note that this was pre-RFM days, so freshman year rush led to being cross cut and then pledging sophomore year, vowing to one day be the chapter’s Rush Chair to prevent other girls from being cross cut. The year I was elected Rush Chair, my biological sister (SIS) went through. I 100% let her choose her own sorority and was ecstatic that she chose to pledge mine! Her BFF pledge sister was eventually chapter President and we spent a happy 3-4 years together as National Officers.

Fast forward a few years and BFF was diagnosed with cancer. Dear SIS was with her until the very end. Fast forward 7 months and sweet niece (SN) was born and named after BFF. Fast forward 13 years and SIS unexpectedly passes away.

SN is now in high school and with zero prompting from me says she wants to attend her mom’s alma mater and to join her mom’s sorority as a way to feel connected to both her mom SIS and to BFF. Thankfully, this is not a crazy Southern recruitment and my chapter is a solid middle of the road group and will probably welcome SN with open arms. But if my GLO adopted one of these no-legacy policies & didn’t even give her the courtesy of a first round party invitation, I would be INCENSED!

No exaggeration, there will probably be 100+ rec letters sent to the house for SN from about 7 years worth of our chapter sisters, so SN will definitely be on their radar. But, I hope that this wave of inclusivity and diversity doesn’t stop our chapters from showing a little grace and kindness toward the families that have loved them for decades.
  #68  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:49 PM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sororitysock View Post
If a chapter is doing recruitment right, they believe every one of the women coming to their preference parties will be a good fit and they love them. Now, comparably there may be objective differences between two PNMs, it it's not like they're going to have a bunch of 2.5 GPA PNMs when their minimum GPA is a 3.3. So not all PNMs are created equal and legacy status is one of those things that under most policies would give a woman an extra advantage, just like, for instance, a 4.0 GPA may add an extra advantage to a PNM for a super academically oriented chapters.
Gotcha, so basically, each PNM would have to be 100% judged on her own merits (grades, recs, fit, etc.).

I could see why there’s disappointment, because many ladies want their daughters/granddaughters/sisters to be their legacies. But I’m sure if the PNM is a fit for the legacy chapter, the policy change shouldn’t be an issue for them either way. Seems like if it’s about each PNM finding their home to have their own experience, legacy or not, they will.

Unless I’m understanding this all wrong. Bless your hearts, because recruitment seems complicated!
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Last edited by PersistentDST; 07-01-2020 at 11:54 PM.
  #69  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:01 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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It would seem that way but it's a kick in the teeth for moms who want to pin their daughters.

I think it's easier for legacies to pledge their moms' sororities in the NPHC. Today while out walking, I saw our Delta neighbor and I told her about all this and asked her what she would have done if she had pursued Delta (her mom's group too) for years and never been accepted. She looked confused and said that that never would've happened. She called her mother over and asked her if she'd ever heard of that happening to legacies in the local chapter. Her mother said, "No, not even with the girls who were odd as long as they did the correct work they needed to beforehand." (Ha! Mom is blunt. I can imagine the chapter conversations about someone's weird daughter.)

Two other ways the NPHC and the NPC differ: y'all have 4 sororities and we have 26. We have quotas and you don't (neither do NIC fraternities that I know of). Quotas, put in place so that some groups don't take all the top girls and leave other groups to waste away, are part of the reason that we can't pledge all legacies.
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  #70  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:53 AM
PersistentDST PersistentDST is online now
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
It would seem that way but it's a kick in the teeth for moms who want to pin their daughters.

I think it's easier for legacies to pledge their moms' sororities in the NPHC. Today while out walking, I saw our Delta neighbor and I told her about all this and asked her what she would have done if she had pursued Delta (her mom's group too) for years and never been accepted. She looked confused and said that that never would've happened. She called her mother over and asked her if she'd ever heard of that happening to legacies in the local chapter. Her mother said, "No, not even with the girls who were odd as long as they did the correct work they needed to beforehand." (Ha! Mom is blunt. I can imagine the chapter conversations about someone's weird daughter.)

Two other ways the NPHC and the NPC differ: y'all have 4 sororities and we have 26. We have quotas and you don't (neither do NIC fraternities that I know of). Quotas, put in place so that some groups don't take all the top girls and leave other groups to waste away, are part of the reason that we can't pledge all legacies.
In my experience, I’ve seen legacies who have been denied for various reasons. It happened to friends of mine in both undergrad and Alumnae. I happen to know a couple of legacies who waited years before getting an opportunity, including two of my line sisters and a few ladies I helped to bring in my Alumnae chapter recently.

My organization does actually have limitations on how many can be brought in. At large schools, HBCU’s, and some Alumnae chapters, where 100’s of interests apply, a legacy can very well be denied because there simply are not enough spots. Unfortunately, this happened to my cousin a couple of years ago. She had a great resume, but the competition was massive. For some chapters, picking all the eligible legacies would eliminate any other qualified women.

It’s not that it’s something that doesn’t matter, but legacies have to research, get to know members in their chapter of interest, support programming, serve their communities and carry themselves well on campus or in the community, just like all other interests. My best friend didn’t tell anyone she was a legacy and the chapter was surprised when her mother showed up at initiation to pin her. Either way she was Delta material and that’ll always shine through! Membership is a privilege extended to each Soror on their merits.
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Last edited by PersistentDST; 07-02-2020 at 01:15 AM.
  #71  
Old 07-02-2020, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I think it's easier for legacies to pledge their moms' sororities in the NPHC. Today while out walking, I saw our Delta neighbor and I told her about all this and asked her what she would have done if she had pursued Delta (her mom's group too) for years and never been accepted. She looked confused and said that that never would've happened.
Several years ago, didn't some women sue AKA because they weren't selected for membership, or am I imagining it? It was something about growing up as legacies and expecting to be automatically chosen. I thought I read it here on GC, but maybe not.

Anyway, carry on! 😀
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  #72  
Old 07-02-2020, 07:46 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by lake View Post
Several years ago, didn't some women sue AKA because they weren't selected for membership, or am I imagining it? It was something about growing up as legacies and expecting to be automatically chosen. I thought I read it here on GC, but maybe not.

Anyway, carry on! 😀
Yup. And they lost.

https://diverseeducation.com/article/66460/

tl;dr: In the event of a school limiting the number of people who can be taken at one time, the sorority had an internal policy of ranking legacies. These two women (and several more) were not selected because their upperclass standing was held against them. Their mothers threw tantrums and sued.
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  #73  
Old 07-02-2020, 07:47 AM
FSUZeta FSUZeta is offline
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Actually, a few weeks ago thousands of AOII collegiate and alumnae members signed an AOII-member-organized and internally circulated petition asking AOII to do better with regard to diversity and inclusion. It was meant for AOII eyes only, so I am not comfortable speaking to any details.
.
Did this petition include mention of the legacy policy?
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  #74  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:01 AM
SWTXBelle SWTXBelle is offline
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I'd be interested in seeing some actual numbers in terms of how many WOC are going through NPC recruitment, and how many are given a bid. I realize that may not be possible, but from my admittedly restricted view, the problem is more a case of getting WOC to go through recruitment rather than those who do not getting a bid. I am also aware that this will vary widely amongst campuses, but i would be very surprised if the issue is not more one of getting WOC to come through recruitment instead of those who do being denied a bid. Are those who are coming through dropping out/not getting a bid in higher numbers than traditional PNMs? Are we attracting WOC in the first place? If not, why not? I'd think exploring those questions should be the focus before deciding the best way to proceed.
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  #75  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:17 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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I'd be interested in seeing some actual numbers in terms of how many WOC are going through NPC recruitment, and how many are given a bid. I realize that may not be possible, but from my admittedly restricted view, the problem is more a case of getting WOC to go through recruitment rather than those who do not getting a bid. I am also aware that this will vary widely amongst campuses, but i would be very surprised if the issue is not more one of getting WOC to come through recruitment instead of those who do being denied a bid. Are those who are coming through dropping out/not getting a bid in higher numbers than traditional PNMs? Are we attracting WOC in the first place? If not, why not? I'd think exploring those questions should be the focus before deciding the best way to proceed.
In our town, especially at the high school that all my kids attended, Asian and Hispanic women do rush and pledge NPCs regularly. I haven't known of a local black woman to rush an NPC in the last 20 years and like I said earlier, most of that is likely due to the community culture. The NPHC chapters here are very visible and do a huge amount of good work. Many women are legacies and they want to follow their relatives into the chapters. And also, the black high school teachers and administrators wear their para all the time and have their symbols all over their classrooms, offices, and cars.

I wish the NPC would be that visible.
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