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  #46  
Old 07-01-2020, 08:57 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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What it comes down to, in one part, is what members were told when they joined:"your daughters will get this benefit (______ ) if they rush." Now they won't. That was one of the few benefits you get as an alum, and it's gone. Don't tell me no one freaks out when a benefit disappears in other organizations, I have seen people come apart when their credit card or grocery store or HOA changed benefits after years.

Our organizations have breathed "legacy" for years. My sorority has a legacy song that we sing frequently; others have legacy organizations for young women, and others have legacy clothing for babies and children. Some sororities have special legacy weekends for teenaged girls where they stay in the house. Is it any wonder that women hope their daughters will pledge their house? It must be wonderful to share initiation and rituals with a daughter!

One thing that I've seen online in the past week that bothers me: the attacks on women who are protesting the policy. Women who don't even know the protesting member are dogpiling and calling their sisters awful names. It's no wonder that there are women who are resigning or withdrawing monetary support. Who wants to belong anymore if you're attacked because of your opinion?

In some ways, it doesn't seem like a big deal: your legacy daughter doesn't have an automatic invitation to second parties and if she makes it to prefs, she won't necessarily be on the first bid list (at least 1 sorority hasn't done the latter for years). In truth, removing this will not increase diversity because sororities will always find a way to ask outstanding women back. I have never heard of a outstanding woman whom a sorority regretfully cut because they had to ask back a legacy they didn't want. They found a way.

Claiming that dropping these legacy benefits will increase diversity sounds so grand. I think some groups grabbed this moment to drop a policy they weren't fond of so they could look noble. Actually, it means less anguished phone calls from alums and no more.

And making decisions like these without input from the stakeholders? Baaaad move.
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  #47  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:49 AM
TriDeltaSallie TriDeltaSallie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheerio View Post
Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.
I watched my ritual online this weekend. A chapter sister saw my comments on here and gave me a heads up that it had already been changed in recent years and that I could watch it online.

I didn't want to watch it because I knew it would make me sad. I knew exactly which part would be removed and I was correct. The most beautiful legend and imagery from our ritual was completely removed. Why? Strong references to Christianity and Christ.

The "potential destroyers" as you called them are already in our groups and actively changing things. This isn't fear we feel. It's sadness and betrayal. I was naive to think that some things really mattered - like the permanence of our ritual.
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Last edited by TriDeltaSallie; 07-01-2020 at 11:50 AM. Reason: typo
  #48  
Old 07-01-2020, 01:29 PM
shadokat shadokat is offline
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carnation, thank you for saying a lot of what I've been thinking. My thought process on this whole thing is that if a chapter REALLY wants a certain woman or women, no matter what the legacy policy is, they'll find a way to get her. I was on a reddit forum and DG was RAVING about how amazing it is that they eliminated the policy to provide an equal chance for everyone to be able to join. I'm sorry, but stop the nonsense. Removal of that policy will not allow everyone to join. EVER!

If NPC groups want diversity, they need to work with college campuses to create a climate that supports diversity, PERIOD!
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  #49  
Old 07-01-2020, 02:37 PM
Cookiez17 Cookiez17 is offline
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So on the idea of introducing not just IFC/NPC orgs to people rushing, they did this at my old school during recruitment. The multicultural orgs would be there for the first night or two and then an individual would reach out if they had interest.

Sadly when someone asked "Oh what orgs are we visiting today?" a rho gamma stated that XYZ fraternity wasn't going to be there that night and I heard a "thank god" from a guy in the back .

On the other hand if a school has a Meet the Greeks sort of thing they usually will have all of the organizations show up and then the multicultural/NPHC orgs would usually do a stroll/step they had prepared, which would get the room extremely excited, including myself.
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  #50  
Old 07-01-2020, 04:17 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadokat View Post
if a chapter REALLY wants a certain woman or women, no matter what the legacy policy is, they'll find a way to get her.
stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.
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  #51  
Old 07-01-2020, 04:45 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.
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  #52  
Old 07-01-2020, 04:58 PM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookiez17 View Post
So on the idea of introducing not just IFC/NPC orgs to people rushing, they did this at my old school during recruitment. The multicultural orgs would be there for the first night or two and then an individual would reach out if they had interest.

Sadly when someone asked "Oh what orgs are we visiting today?" a rho gamma stated that XYZ fraternity wasn't going to be there that night and I heard a "thank god" from a guy in the back .

On the other hand if a school has a Meet the Greeks sort of thing they usually will have all of the organizations show up and then the multicultural/NPHC orgs would usually do a stroll/step they had prepared, which would get the room extremely excited, including myself.
And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post
I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:



stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.
Spot on, as usual.
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  #53  
Old 07-01-2020, 05:47 PM
Cookiez17 Cookiez17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Well for recruitment which basically served as rush they only gave an informational telling the history of their org and explaining to the PNMs what NPHC orgs are as a whole. The Meet The Greeks was a greek wide event and PNMs could go but it was only optional for those signing up for recruitment.
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  #54  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:01 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.
I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.
Yea, that might be the first step in inclusion - invite folks over for more than dancing LOL
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  #55  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:03 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post
I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:



stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.
In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.
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  #56  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:07 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post
I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?
No. If the girl is a bad fit, she's unlikely to make it past early rounds. If she is a good fit, she is likely to go much further. Round pegs won't be making it into square holes at this point, it'll be square pegs and square holes.
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  #57  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:17 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.
I didn't tell you anything about what your org should or shouldn't do. But obviously your organizations have found a need to evolve, so if that evolution means a previous benefit is no more, then perhaps the benefit conversation needs to be had. If you don't think so, more power to y'all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
No. If the girl is a bad fit, she's unlikely to make it past early rounds. If she is a good fit, she is likely to go much further. Round pegs won't be making it into square holes at this point, it'll be square pegs and square holes.
Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just honestly trying to understand because it's not clear in my reading of this thread.

So she makes it far into the process, everyone likes her, and everyone wants her. Why would they cut her? If she's a great legacy who is a fit for the chapter wouldn't you rank her high enough to make sure she makes the cut?

Apologies if the terminology is off - trying to tap into my previous GC knowledge of these processes LOL
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  #58  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:24 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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No, the thing is that a very small number of people think we need to evolve.

OK, say there are 5 rounds of recruitment (5 sets of parties). With most NPCs, a legacy would automatically get asked back to the second round. She could still be cut after 3rd or 4th round but if she was still in the running when the last set of parties (preferential parties/prefs) came around, most NPCs would put her at the top of the bid list with other legacies.

Each sorority has a different system by which their PNMs are scored (not going into that because it involves membership selection) but it is possible for a PNM to be liked very much by the members but not be on the first bid list just because of numbers.
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  #59  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:31 PM
knight_shadow knight_shadow is offline
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Got it. I figured there might be an MS situation where we couldn't get into the weeds.

Thanks for the context.
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  #60  
Old 07-01-2020, 09:26 PM
Sororitysock Sororitysock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knight_shadow View Post
Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just honestly trying to understand because it's not clear in my reading of this thread.

So she makes it far into the process, everyone likes her, and everyone wants her. Why would they cut her? If she's a great legacy who is a fit for the chapter wouldn't you rank her high enough to make sure she makes the cut?

Apologies if the terminology is off - trying to tap into my previous GC knowledge of these processes LOL
Everyone who is invited to your preference (final) round has the potential to become your sister whether she's a legacy or not. If she doesn't initially get a space on your first bid list, she can end up with a bid if she ranks you #1 and you don't reach quota by the time you get to the end of your first bid list. Why don't you get to quota on the first pass on your bid list? Because some of those women may have ranked their other preference sorority as their #1 and they were on that sorority's first bid list. This is the "mutual selection" we talk about. The point is, you should only be inviting women to your preference round that you can see as a sister, because it's very possible that women who might not be comparably as desirable could end up on your bid list via the reason above or by playing by the rules so they make it as a quota addition. So if a sorority invites you to preference, they want you and that little perk of being a legacy puts her at the top of the bid list. If your bylaws change, I think it's cruel to invite a legacy back for preference with no intention of putting her on the first bid list.

I don't have a problem with dropping legacies who you know won't fit after the first round, but it's that dropping after preference that bothers me.

Some southern chapters have been dropping legacies after first round for several years; all with the blessing of the HQ. those are the chapters where the number of legacies rushing comes or even exceeds expected quota. Otherwise those chapters and pledge classes would be composed of all legacies.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's difficult to write about this without talking about membership selection.
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