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  #16  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:06 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 View Post

And what is this 'poaching' you speak of? Why would anyone be upset with a young woman going down the path she sees as being the best for herself, based on knowledge and positive experiences; a place where she feels most comfortable? If someone's mad about that, well... f*** them, I say. If that's a problem for ANY of us in Greek life, no matter the council or organization, then we're all failing miserably.
Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.
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  #17  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:23 AM
Cheerio Cheerio is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did).

I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.
Might more than a few college administrators need to raise their level of understanding by also participating in this NPC/NPHC sorority diversification dialog of which you speak?
  #18  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:27 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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YES.
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  #19  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:00 AM
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I just totally admire the NPHC members' dedication to their membership. NPC just hasn't figured out how to get to that level and it makes me sad. It is truly to be admired and emulated.
We won’t get that level of dedication until we change the way we rush. For the most part, women join an NPC chapter because they like the women who are currently chapter members. I’ve read more than one post on here when the NPHC boards were more active from an interested woman who said she wasn’t sure she liked the current chapter members. The answer was usually something along the lines of “evaluate if this org is truly in your heart, and if so, be on about the business of Delta (or AKA, or Sigma, or Zeta).” They cultivate devotion to the National organization far above that of the local chapter. It’s the total opposite of NPC rush.
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  #20  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:05 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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I think that part of the reason that we'll never get that level of devotion is our quotas. You can love and appreciate the aims of Alpha Alpha Alpha your whole young life but if you're one of the 95% of PNMs who are cut from that organization during recruitment because they can only take 75 women, then all that appreciation is down the toilet and you better pick a different group or stay independent.
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  #21  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:24 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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This too.

Heck, women rushing NPC are outright discouraged from the kind of devotion to a possible organization that NPHC women are encouraged to have.
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  #22  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:30 AM
Sen's Revenge Sen's Revenge is offline
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Originally Posted by Titchou View Post
I just totally admire the NPHC members' dedication to their membership. NPC just hasn't figured out how to get to that level and it makes me sad. It is truly to be admired and emulated.
Thank you, but also we've been doing things largely the same for years and years. It's not hard to "copy off our paper" if you wanted to.

However, NPHC orgs fill gaps that groups of white women have filled with other community and civic endeavors for many, many years. For example, the Junior League. There is no black version of the Junior League, so black sororities have filled that need for black women after graduation.

I'm not saying the Junior League is the main competitor for college women after graduation, but let's also be honest that most college women don't stay engaged in their sororities after college. Alumnae initiation is the true pipeline. Maybe even moreso for NPHC fraternities than sororities.

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Originally Posted by PersistentDST View Post
I agree with all of this. The conversation never comes up in my Greek circles. I only know of one guy that was participated in NIC recruitment, dropped and ended up joining an NPHC organization.

Our councils offer different sorority experiences. We all offer leadership, service and social opportunities, but different nevertheless. Normally, it’s a pretty clear line between “interests” and “PNM’s,” regardless of race/ethnicity.

I keep seeing discussions about what the NPC organizations can do to attract more diverse young women to participate in recruitment. I honestly don’t think there is one special, magical answer to that question, because Black people (and non-Black POC) are diverse. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to “colorblindness“), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations, right? Black PNM’s watch the same recruitment videos, obsess over chapter IG pages and plan their outfits and hair styles 3 months before recruitment just like everyone else. Just like their peers, they are attracted to the things that they believe NPC membership will offer them. You can’t poach someone that wants to be poached. Similarly, non-Black NPHC members saw something in our organizations that made them research and pursue us. They have the same expectations placed on them as our Black interests.
I agree with all of this. I wanted to tag you in before I answered, but I don't know you in real life LOL

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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.
I don't know that a dialogue is really necessary, though. I just think that NPC alumnae groups need to show up in places that they're not accustomed to. In my home town, for example, there is definitely an alumnae panhellenic. But are they showing up in DC Public Schools to talk about the sorority experience?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
We won’t get that level of dedication until we change the way we rush. For the most part, women join an NPC chapter because they like the women who are currently chapter members. I’ve read more than one post on here when the NPHC boards were more active from an interested woman who said she wasn’t sure she liked the current chapter members. The answer was usually something along the lines of “evaluate if this org is truly in your heart, and if so, be on about the business of Delta (or AKA, or Sigma, or Zeta).” They cultivate devotion to the National organization far above that of the local chapter. It’s the total opposite of NPC rush.
I agree with this, too. And with alumnae/alumni intake, we definitely encourage people who don't feel like the college chapter is a fit to just wait and pursue after they graduate. For me, I didn't come to know I wanted to pursue Alpha until I was a senior in college, but because I knew about alumni chapters, I was happy to wait until the timing was better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation View Post
I think that part of the reason that we'll never get that level of devotion is our quotas. You can love and appreciate the aims of Alpha Alpha Alpha your whole young life but if you're one of the 95% of PNMs who are cut from that organization during recruitment because they can only take 75 women, then all that appreciation is down the toilet and you better pick a different group or stay independent.
That's part of it. I know a lot more goes into it than this, but NPC orgs have to be okay with being dramatically different sizes if they want to change the culture. I'd rather see a college campus with a huge chapter of Chi Chi Chi and a small chapter of Pi Alpha--if that's who they decide to be based on available interest.

This happens at large black colleges where 75 women may pledge AKA or Delta, 15 may pledge Zeta, and 5 may pledge SGRho -- and nobody is unhappy with those numbers because everybody is where they want to be (except the women who got rejected of course lol).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
This too.

Heck, women rushing NPC are outright discouraged from the kind of devotion to a possible organization that NPHC women are encouraged to have.
I think here is a place to retell the brief story that my mom (a Delta of nearly 50 years) rushed at a Michigan college and ALL the sororities participated. She still has a memento from a Delta Zeta rush party (I think she got a bid). I am not sure how it was structured, but she went into the rush because it was mandatory to go visit all the orgs, and for all orgs to participate, even if they weren't necessarily giving out bids.

That said...

Me and NUPE4LIFE (former Kappa mod and friend of mine) discuss Greek life all the time, and we've come to the agreement that all Greek orgs should participate in some sort of mandatory first round event where all orgs are visited. This would build an appreciation of BGLO, LGLO, and MCGLOs among the predominately white organizations, while allowing those same orgs to "catch" people who didn't know about them beforehand, if that makes sense.

It puts everyone on the same playing field if you come to college not knowing the totality of Greekdom. This would allow the AKA and Delta legacy daughters that Carnation mentioned the chance to really see the other side, and would allow students who don't know any better have a chance to make an informed decision.

AND the elimination of legacy preference levels the playing field further.

Recs should indeed be next on the chopping block.

Sorry if this rambles. I'm used to speaking about this more than typing about it.
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  #23  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:35 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.
But this is the very point. College students WILL go for the experience they prefer. At least they should, and we should be encouraging that.

And they'd prefer not to get yelled at when mom has a hissy fit because their darling daughter didn't make the same choice they made 30 years prior.

Again, this legacy decision didn't happen overnight. And no, I don't think it's "bad timing." I think a giant movement and the in-our-faces-all-day-every-day thing needed to happen to wake us all up and take action on something (e.g. our legacy policies) that some people have been talking about for at least a decade. Sometimes we all need one giant slap in the face to realize that maybe we're not doing everything perfectly and could use a change.

And let's also not pretend that some members, chapters, and even organizations as a whole haven't openly been racist, or at the very least, non-inclusive. You really think that all of our "picture-perfect" chapters filled with 100+ tall, skinny blondes is treating all potential members as equals? You think they're giving the black girl, or the overweight girl, or the girl with the pink hair the same opportunities as someone who looks exactly like them? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
This too.

Heck, women rushing NPC are outright discouraged from the kind of devotion to a possible organization that NPHC women are encouraged to have.
Truth. We push away women who are truly dedicated and we give a pass through rounds to women who may want nothing to do with our organizations.

Look, I don't know what all the answers are, but we really can't continue to do the same thing over and over, year after year, decade after decade, and expect to survive. Change is inevitable. And major events occurring today - BLM, COVID-19 - are going to drastically change how and why women attend college years from now. Are we going to be able as NPC sororities to adapt and be relevant for the 18-year-olds of the future?
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:56 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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And let's also not pretend that some members, chapters, and even organizations as a whole haven't openly been racist, or at the very least, non-inclusive. You really think that all of our "picture-perfect" chapters filled with 100+ tall, skinny blondes is treating all potential members as equals? You think they're giving the black girl, or the overweight girl, or the girl with the pink hair the same opportunities as someone who looks exactly like them? Please.


Look, I don't know what all the answers are, but we really can't continue to do the same thing over and over, year after year, decade after decade, and expect to survive. Change is inevitable. And major events occurring today - BLM, COVID-19 - are going to drastically change how and why women attend college years from now. Are we going to be able as NPC sororities to adapt and be relevant for the 18-year-olds of the future?
18-year-old have always wanted the same thing--to be accepted. I know that my organization and many others have lots of black, overweight, and pink/blue/whatever color of hair women. I doubt that many chapters sit down and make a plan for excluding these groups. Actives pick who they like.

However, having watched the rush of a purple-haired woman at a college where I taught, I don't blame the sororities for cutting her. She was out to shock the women there and having done so in parties, raged because she was cut across the board. Same for a lot of the women in the "Weird Rush Stories" thread, and this is why I don't believe in being forced to accept everyone.

Some people are talking about change in organizations--acceptance, inclusiveness, and diversity. Fine, but don't go trying to tear up the organization you just pledged. I would never think of pledging AEPhi and then announcing that the Star of David offends me and you just better get all of them out of the house or I'll sue. Yet this has happened with traditionally Christian NPCs--"take the New Testament out of the ritual or I'll raise hell at conventions/print the initiation ceremony online (we saw a few of those here on GC several years back)/act offended at every chapter meeting", etc.

We are all looking for high quality women who will work hard and make us proud of our organizations.
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  #25  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:09 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge View Post
Thank you, but also we've been doing things largely the same for years and years. It's not hard to "copy off our paper" if you wanted to.

However, NPHC orgs fill gaps that groups of white women have filled with other community and civic endeavors for many, many years. For example, the Junior League. There is no black version of the Junior League, so black sororities have filled that need for black women after graduation.

I'm not saying the Junior League is the main competitor for college women after graduation, but let's also be honest that most college women don't stay engaged in their sororities after college. Alumnae initiation is the true pipeline. Maybe even moreso for NPHC fraternities than sororities.



I agree with all of this. I wanted to tag you in before I answered, but I don't know you in real life LOL



I don't know that a dialogue is really necessary, though. I just think that NPC alumnae groups need to show up in places that they're not accustomed to. In my home town, for example, there is definitely an alumnae panhellenic. But are they showing up in DC Public Schools to talk about the sorority experience?



I agree with this, too. And with alumnae/alumni intake, we definitely encourage people who don't feel like the college chapter is a fit to just wait and pursue after they graduate. For me, I didn't come to know I wanted to pursue Alpha until I was a senior in college, but because I knew about alumni chapters, I was happy to wait until the timing was better.



That's part of it. I know a lot more goes into it than this, but NPC orgs have to be okay with being dramatically different sizes if they want to change the culture. I'd rather see a college campus with a huge chapter of Chi Chi Chi and a small chapter of Pi Alpha--if that's who they decide to be based on available interest.

This happens at large black colleges where 75 women may pledge AKA or Delta, 15 may pledge Zeta, and 5 may pledge SGRho -- and nobody is unhappy with those numbers because everybody is where they want to be (except the women who got rejected of course lol).



I think here is a place to retell the brief story that my mom (a Delta of nearly 50 years) rushed at a Michigan college and ALL the sororities participated. She still has a memento from a Delta Zeta rush party (I think she got a bid). I am not sure how it was structured, but she went into the rush because it was mandatory to go visit all the orgs, and for all orgs to participate, even if they weren't necessarily giving out bids.

That said...

Me and NUPE4LIFE (former Kappa mod and friend of mine) discuss Greek life all the time, and we've come to the agreement that all Greek orgs should participate in some sort of mandatory first round event where all orgs are visited. This would build an appreciation of BGLO, LGLO, and MCGLOs among the predominately white organizations, while allowing those same orgs to "catch" people who didn't know about them beforehand, if that makes sense.

It puts everyone on the same playing field if you come to college not knowing the totality of Greekdom. This would allow the AKA and Delta legacy daughters that Carnation mentioned the chance to really see the other side, and would allow students who don't know any better have a chance to make an informed decision.


AND the elimination of legacy preference levels the playing field further.

Recs should indeed be next on the chopping block.

Sorry if this rambles. I'm used to speaking about this more than typing about it.
Everything that you said here. And cheers to pointing out some of the best points by others in this thread, and especially cheers to the bold text.
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  #26  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:13 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Originally Posted by carnation View Post
18-year-old have always wanted the same thing--to be accepted. I know that my organization and many others have lots of black, overweight, and pink/blue/whatever color of hair women. I doubt that many chapters sit down and make a plan for excluding these groups. Actives pick who they like.

However, having watched the rush of a purple-haired woman at a college where I taught, I don't blame the sororities for cutting her. She was out to shock the women there and having done so in parties, raged because she was cut across the board. Same for a lot of the women in the "Weird Rush Stories" thread, and this is why I don't believe in being forced to accept everyone.
This is extremely antecdotal and is missing the big picture. And who here is arguing that a chapter should be forced to take anyone and everyone?

Quote:
Some people are talking about change in organizations--acceptance, inclusiveness, and diversity. Fine, but don't go trying to tear up the organization you just pledged. I would never think of pledging AEPhi and then announcing that the Star of David offends me and you just better get all of them out of the house or I'll sue. Yet this has happened with traditionally Christian NPCs--"take the New Testament out of the ritual or I'll raise hell at conventions/print the initiation ceremony online (we saw a few of those here on GC several years back)/act offended at every chapter meeting", etc.

We are all looking for high quality women who will work hard and make us proud of our organizations.
Again, not sure where we're ripping up the very fabric of our organizations and destroying decades of history by eliminating our legacy policies.
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  #27  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:20 AM
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Appreciate the NPHC insights on this. My experience has been more the "women in my family have always been Deltas so I will too" than otherwise, but my experience is limited.

I caution the greek community about seeing this only as a white/black issue. Unless we can show ALL women of color the benefits of membership and encourage them to seek it, we hamstring ourselves.
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  #28  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:28 AM
carnation carnation is offline
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This is extremely antecdotal and is missing the big picture. And who here is arguing that a chapter should take anyone and everyone?Again, not sure where we're ripping up the very fabric of our organizations and destroying decades of history by eliminating our legacy policies.
Haven't you seen articles online for years that scream that sororities are exclusive and must be made to take all interested women? They've been all over the place.

My story about the purple-haired girl is hardly anecdotal. Read "Weird Rush Stories" again. I bet that hardly a recruitment goes by at big schools where there aren't several women who do this kind of thing. There are many women who do things that aren't acceptable to the sororities at their campus and then scream unfair when they don't get a bid. Thinking here about a girl who pulled trains with men all over campus the summer before her freshman year and then went berserk (and so did her father) when she was cut from all 7 groups after first parties. Women like this want to break the rules and they don't care if they embarrass their GLOs, but they'll tell the world how wrong sororities are for not taking everyone.

I have written in this thread why I don't think the legacy policy is responsible for the lack of diversity and neither are recs...I won't write it again. Legacy policies and ripping up our fabric have nothing to do with each other. I think the timing of these organizations in announcing the new legacy policy is ridiculous. Not to mention, recruitment starts in a month and there are some very angry alums out there.
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  #29  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:44 AM
ASTalumna06 ASTalumna06 is offline
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Haven't you seen articles online for years that scream that sororities are exclusive and must be made to take all interested women? They've been all over the place.
Yes, I have. And I don't think eliminating the legacy policy is going to change this, nor does it force a chapter to "take everyone".

Quote:
My story about the purple-haired girl is hardly anecdotal. Read "Weird Rush Stories" again. I bet that hardly a recruitment goes by at big schools where there aren't several women who do this kind of thing. There are many women who do things that aren't acceptable to the sororities at their campus and then scream unfair when they don't get a bid. Thinking here about a girl who pulled trains with men all over campus the summer before her freshman year and then went berserk (and so did her father) when she was cut from all 7 groups after first parties. Women like this want to break the rules and they don't care if they embarrass their GLOs, but they'll tell the world how wrong sororities are for not taking everyone.
I'm not sure how the legacy policy has anything to do with crazy potential new members. There will forever be "Weird Rush Stories", and they will be generated because of PNMs with different-colored hair and PNMs who are tall, skinny blondes. Crazy doesn't discriminate.

Quote:
I have written in this thread why I don't think the legacy policy is responsible for the lack of diversity and neither are recs...I won't write it again. Legacy policies and ripping up our fabric have nothing to do with each other. I think the timing of these organizations in announcing the new legacy policy is ridiculous. Not to mention, recruitment starts in a month and there are some very angry alums out there.
When would have been a good time? At what time of year or under what circumstances do you think all alumnae would be happy?
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  #30  
Old 06-30-2020, 11:54 AM
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Yes, I have. And I don't think eliminating the legacy policy is going to change this, nor does it force a chapter to "take everyone".

--I didn't say it did. Eliminating the legacy policy, like I said, does not = taking everyone.



I'm not sure how the legacy policy has anything to do with crazy potential new members. There will forever be "Weird Rush Stories", and they will be generated because of PNMs with different-colored hair and PNMs who are tall, skinny blondes. Crazy doesn't discriminate.

--It doesn't.



When would have been a good time? At what time of year or under what circumstances do you think all alumnae would be happy?
I think that these groups were trying to figure out when to dump it on their members--99.9% of whom were not given a say or a vote in this--and then voila! All this horrible stuff happened in this country and by eliminating the policy at this time, these groups could virtue signal!
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