Mormons won't stop baptizing dead Jews

[Rudey]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...izing_the_dead

Jews, Mormons to Meet Over Baptisms

Thu Apr 7,10:35 PM ET

_U.S. National - AP

By MARK THIESSEN, Associated Press Writer

SALT LAKE CITY - Jewish leaders claim Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims, and will confront church leaders with a decade of frustration over what they call broken promises.

"We have proof, and we are bringing that," said Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.

The Mormon church has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in for the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for the dead to reach heaven. The church believes individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave.

Michel plans to show posthumous baptism records to church officials in meetings Sunday and Monday. He says the records prove tens of thousands of Jews, including some who died in Nazi concentration camps, were posthumously baptized over the past 10 years and as recently as last month.

A 1995 agreement signed by Jewish leaders and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints called for an immediate halt to unwanted proxy baptisms. After evidence was found in the church's massive International Genealogical Index that the baptisms for many Jews — including Anne Frank — continued, the two faiths reaffirmed the agreement in 2002.

Jewish leaders in New York have bitterly complained the baptisms never stopped, and last year asked Democratic Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene. She met with Sen. Orrin Hatch (news, bio, voting record), an Utah Republican and active Mormon, though neither side would discuss what was said.

The church, too, declined comment Thursday. "The church won't be commenting at all on this issue for the moment. We are looking forward to discussions with our Jewish guests," spokeswoman Kim Farah said.

Under the Mormon practice, most Catholic popes have been proxy baptized, as have historical figures like Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Buddha, according to Helen Radkey, an independent genealogical researcher in Salt Lake City.

However, the church directed its members after 1995 to not include for baptism the names of Jewish Holocaust victims, celebrities and people who aren't relatives.

The church also assumes the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

Carol Skydell, also a researcher, said that didn't happen when her paternal grandparents and aunt and uncle apparently were given a baptism by proxy. She found their proxy baptism records in 2002.

"Nobody asked me, nobody asked my cousin. It's ridiculous," Skydell said.

-Rudey

[squirrely girl]

i'm sure that this doesn't encompass/represent everybody from that particular religious orientation...

but for the ones that it does... uhhhhhhhhhh freaks!

how do people think up of this shit...

marissa

[HBADPi]

Thats the most bizarre thing I've read in awhile..Rudey while you're still in La Jolla perhaps you should swing by the Moron church in SD and get baptized.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by HBADPi
Thats the most bizarre thing I've read in awhile..Rudey while you're still in La Jolla perhaps you should swing by the Moron church in SD and get baptized.

There's a Mormon church here?? I've never seen so many divorcees running around in the bars. lol

-Rudey

[DeltaSigStan]

YOU'RE DOWN HERE???????????

How can you not see the cult temple? It's visible a mile away from the highway.

[honeychile]

As someone who is seriously into genealogy, I've seen several of my ancestors "sealed" as Mormons. It's their thing, and if you don't believe in Mormonism, you shouldn't take it seriously.

The first time I saw it, I was like, WTH? But then I realized that, while the person who did it was very happy with his- or herself, I could care less. After all, I don't think they're gods of their own planets now, either - and I appreciate the use of their records.

[valkyrie]

That's incredibly disrespectful. It reminds me of those pro-life freaks in Boulder who were having funerals for abortions.

[HBADPi]

Originally posted by Rudey
There's a Mormon church here??

[valkyrie]

There's one in Glenview, Illinois too.

[Private I]

I find that incredibly disrespectful and close-minded (the topic of the article I mean). I can't imagine how my descendents would feel to find out that after who knows how many generations of being Serbian Orthodox, we were suddenly changed to a completely other religion. It's like re-writing history.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by Private I
I find that incredibly disrespectful and close-minded (the topic of the article I mean). I can't imagine how my descendents would feel to find out that after who knows how many generations of being Serbian Orthodox, we were suddenly changed to a completely other religion. It's like re-writing history.

I felt the same way, the first time I saw that my ggggggggrandparents' marriage was "sealed" - incredibly angry and ready to call them unspeakable names. But I realized that I would have to believe that what they did made even a little bit of sense. They were married prior to the birth of Joseph Smith, for heaven's sake! If they even know about it, I'm sure they're laughing about it.

[RUgreek]

how do you baptize a dead person by proxy? Isn't this something you need to be alive to do. So I guess this sect of mormons believes non-mormons sit in pergatory until they get a record here on earth stating they've been baptized... g'head and baptize the planet, friggin' morons, er mormons, whatever.


RUgreek

[MysticCat]

It's not "this sect of Mormons." Baptism of the dead is a standard LDS belief and practice -- it's why they keep such meticulous geneological records.

The gist of it is this -- Mormons don't believe in hell as such, just different levels of heaven. To get into the higher levels, one must accept the Gospel (as understood by the LDS) -- to get into the highest level (the Celestial Kingdom), one must have participated in the various Temple rites, including baptism. One can accept the Gospel after death, but one can't participate in the Temple rituals after death. So, live proxies can do the rituals for the dead -- not just baptism, but other Temple rituals such as sealing of marriages for eternity. The performance of the ritual by the proxy, however, is only effective to the extent that the deceased accepts it "on the other side."

Ms. MysticCat and I have some Mormon cousins, and we know that our whole family is on a "list" to be taken care of after our deaths. We just laugh among ourselves about it. I can see how this practice would be particularly distressing to Jews, however, given the history of forced baptisms.

[Private I]

I guess I learn something new every day. My point is, even though I am not very religious, is to do unto others as you would like them to do unto you-namely, how would Mormons feel if all of a sudden its in my Orthodox sect's tradition to rebaptize them? Would it be an all-out battle for who can re-baptize the most people?
I don't like it when people manipulate their religion as a means to an end, if I'm saying this correctly. It reminds me of when my grandmother was so ill she couldn't leave the house and these ladies used to come over all the time and talk to her, and kept her company, which we thought was nice, because my sister and I would be in school, and my grandfather at work. It turns out they were Jehova's Witnesses and wanted to convert her, and when she explained to them she was atheist, they never came back again.

[ASUADPi]

Originally posted by valkyrie
That's incredibly disrespectful. It reminds me of those pro-life freaks in Boulder who were having funerals for abortions.

I completely agree. I have taken many religion course (almost had a minor in it) and I have to admit that I'm completely apalled that the Morman church would do this.

I'm not even Jewish and I find what their doing a complete slap in the face to the religion (Judiasm). To me (and this is my personal opinion) it's like saying "as a Jew, I'm sorry you're not good enough to make it to Heaven, let me baptize you as a Morman and then your good enough."

I don't blame the Jewish community for being up in arms over this one bit.

I personally feel the Morman church went to far by doing this.