universal hazing

[Allmixedup311]

my first post didn't work, so i am retyping this albeit shorter.

from my experience and from talking to friends in other organizations and at other schools, hazing seems to be the norm. for instance out of the 16 fraternities at my school i know for a fact that all but 4 or 5 haze in some form. now i realize that some 'hazing' such as lineups and simple workouts are pretty much always going to happen. but i personally as well as many of my friends in other organizations went through 'obstacle courses' and constantly were doing 'bows and toes. the thing is most people on this site seem to think that hazing is very rare and hardly ever happens, when in fact it seems to be quite the opposite.
i won't bring in individual organizations, but it seems to me that at least at the local level most organizations do haze, rather than it being a minority of chapters.
have some of you experienced or heard this same thing or do most of you honestly believe that hazing only occures in 'problem' chapters?

[AGDee]

As far as all the Inter/National Fraternity Headquarters are concerned, any chapter that hazes, by definitition, is a "problem" chapter. If 11 or 12 fraternities out of 16 on your campus are hazing, then those 11 or 12 are problem chapters and your campus is probably a "problem campus", which people at headquarters also try to identify. You will hear of representatives from chapters at the national level talk about the trends of a specific campus and sometimes work together to try to change things on that campus. The goal is to eliminate all forms, including line ups and workouts that you say "will always happen". They don't have to always happen and the chapters that participate in them are putting their chapter and the whole fraternity at risk. "Everybody does it" isn't going to work in court.


Dee

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by AGDee
"Everybody does it" isn't going to work in court.


Dee

Just wanted to reiterate what Dee said.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Allmixedup311
the thing is most people on this site seem to think that hazing is very rare and hardly ever happens, when in fact it seems to be quite the opposite.

have some of you experienced or heard this same thing or do most of you honestly believe that hazing only occures in 'problem' chapters?

By definition hazing does occur in problem chapters. But, at least among the alumni advisors here, I don't think there are many who don't realize that hazing is still a huge problem -- worse in some places than others.

However, that doesn't excuse it or make it right in any way.

To get out the old broken record yet again, it's against the rules, it's against the law and if your caught there are penalties to pay and they are sometimes severe.

It's a simple as that.

[Rudey]

OK I have a question for you guys.

Let's say you start looking at the amount of hazing that occurs for your fraternity.

Say most of this hazing is in one particular region.

Say the schools involved weren't Ivy league schools but actually the opposite.

Again and again the incidents of hazing occur in those areas and in those schools.

Now based on all that, would it make you think any differently about expansion and/or risk management?

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

It would depend on the people that is trying to bring the chapter into the campus. I would like to see if they are willing to go against the grain and try to re-define the culture. If so, then yes.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Rudey
OK I have a question for you guys.

Let's say you start looking at the amount of hazing that occurs for your fraternity.

Say most of this hazing is in one particular region.

Say the schools involved weren't Ivy league schools but actually the opposite.

Again and again the incidents of hazing occur in those areas and in those schools.

Now based on all that, would it make you think any differently about expansion and/or risk management?

-Rudey

It'd take at least one or two recent colonies in that area for that kind of data to be anywhere near effective. Colonies have the advantage of not being inherantly corrupted by "traditions" of old. In the end, colonies will go their own way most of the time. If you start them off on the right path, they're much less likely to go down the wrong one later on.

So my answer to you is maybe -- depending on what previous colonies in that region have done.

[Tom Earp]

Trying to agree here, but when LXA finds out that Chapters are Hazing, they are told to cease now. If it carrys on then they are dechartered. Not questions asked.

I had the dubious destinction of voting to close a Chapter for doing this. I hate to lose a Chapter, but if History dictates of the same continual thing, then It Needs To Be Closed.

One Chapter reflects not only on that Chapter, The Greek Organization, but also the Total Greek System.

1. Hazing

2. Drugs

The two most horrendous things that can happen to any Organization.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ktsnake
It'd take at least one or two recent colonies in that area for that kind of data to be anywhere near effective. Colonies have the advantage of not being inherantly corrupted by "traditions" of old. In the end, colonies will go their own way most of the time. If you start them off on the right path, they're much less likely to go down the wrong one later on.

So my answer to you is maybe -- depending on what previous colonies in that region have done.

You would think but not too many people are strong given their environment of school and other chapters at their campus. If your school is a school known for parties and not books and if quite a few fraternities at that school have gotten in trouble, it would make me reconsider any sort of expansion.

I have difficulty agreeing with expansion at a very fast rate into territory that can bring risk on the fraternity.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
I have difficulty agreeing with expansion at a very fast rate into territory that can bring risk on the fraternity.

-Rudey

I think Delt would agree. Our expansion efforts in the recent past have been in two areas:

One, smaller, more selective schools and second re-colonizing chapters on what were strong campusus for us who may have gotten in trouble, but with the troublesome groups now gone or graduated. In other words, starting from scratch, but with a large, highly involved alumni base to help.

Simply reopening chapters over and over again without some strong criteria like those above just doesn't make much sense.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Rudey

I have difficulty agreeing with expansion at a very fast rate into territory that can bring risk on the fraternity.

-Rudey

Your assumption is that the colony will emulate the other chapters on campus. You have no real reason to believe that will be the case. I hate to bring my chapter up as an example, but we came on in '99. At that time, one group was kicked off campus for a 14 year old serving alcohol from a keg in one fraternity house on a dry campus (said group also managed a 0.7 GPA that semester). The next semester, another group while out at a pledge kidnap managed to get one of them drunk enough to pass out in the middle of the road. One of the brothers ran the kid over and shattered his hip. There are other groups that still openly haze on my campus. Why do I say this? Because my chapter very definitely does not haze. We, since our beginning have concerned ourselves with being the 'alternative' choice to that type of Greek experience. So far, it's been a VERY successful proposition that has lured many excellent candidates away from other houses on campus.

Anyhow, I say this to illustrate the fact that a colony that is brought on correctly and not corrupted by alums that bring negative traditions will often go the exact opposite direction of other houses on campus. Since we've come onto campus (and I guess some credit goes to PKA as well), we've seen a lot of changes in the other houses and a lot less hazing. It still happens. In fact, one house (and I think this is hilarious) has reportedly said that we make our pledges lay in a bathtub full of piss. I'm glad they fealt threatened enough to start spreading falls rumours

Well, obviously what we're doing works.

Anyhow... rapid expansion? You're right. But slow and careful expansion? Why not?

[Rudey]

Outlier. I mean listen if several of the fraternity's on your campus are folding I tend to think that changes the mentality to make Greeks there really consider their behavior.

Now how about schools were people don't do outrageous thing but often there are risk management issues that need to be dealt with at those schools as a result of the general campus and greek behavior there?

Deltalum said it best. I think if fraternity's can be picky about where they go now and can go into schools where they have alumni closeby, it is very smart.

-Rudey

Originally posted by ktsnake
Your assumption is that the colony will emulate the other chapters on campus. You have no real reason to believe that will be the case. I hate to bring my chapter up as an example, but we came on in '99. At that time, one group was kicked off campus for a 14 year old serving alcohol from a keg in one fraternity house on a dry campus (said group also managed a 0.7 GPA that semester). The next semester, another group while out at a pledge kidnap managed to get one of them drunk enough to pass out in the middle of the road. One of the brothers ran the kid over and shattered his hip. There are other groups that still openly haze on my campus. Why do I say this? Because my chapter very definitely does not haze. We, since our beginning have concerned ourselves with being the 'alternative' choice to that type of Greek experience. So far, it's been a VERY successful proposition that has lured many excellent candidates away from other houses on campus.

Anyhow, I say this to illustrate the fact that a colony that is brought on correctly and not corrupted by alums that bring negative traditions will often go the exact opposite direction of other houses on campus. Since we've come onto campus (and I guess some credit goes to PKA as well), we've seen a lot of changes in the other houses and a lot less hazing. It still happens. In fact, one house (and I think this is hilarious) has reportedly said that we make our pledges lay in a bathtub full of piss. I'm glad they fealt threatened enough to start spreading falls rumours

Well, obviously what we're doing works.

Anyhow... rapid expansion? You're right. But slow and careful expansion? Why not?