Why are recs absolutely necessary at some schools, while not expected at others?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

I still believe recommendations can be valuable when they are made by someone who knows a PNM well, and there should be some type of alumnae vetting prior to initiation. However, with respect to rec-heavy schools, even they have to agree the situation is out of control and lends itself to added hype and hysteria.

Hm...this brings up something interesting...pledge periods used to be a lot longer, and, I *think*, in most orgs, it used to be easier to break a pledge if something came out about the woman that made her unfit for membership. I don't really know where I am going with this, except that it seems like perhaps the "no rec" has possibly gotten more important?

[WCsweet<3]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Thank God I have a double strand to clutch! Seriously though, it is different for us "old world" folks. We would know if they were estranged from that family member. And the chapters who really use recs know who their alums are and who writes good recs and who doesn't. I've worked many a back room at recruitment time in the SEC and without giving away MS information I can tell you that we can tell and we know and we discount some and some we give more "weight" to. It's not just filling in a blank with us. I know that's hard to understand for some people but for us, we've lived it all our lives and it's just part of the culture.

To preface: I come from a campus where recs are not rare, but not common. Less than 10% of PNMs had a rec my senior year.

Let's pretend a girl who I know fairly well is going through recruitment at [insert favorite SEC school]. I may not have stories about her, but know her fairly well, well enough that I would recruit her heavily for my chapter. However the chapter at SEC University don't know me from any other alumnae. What does the bold part say about my rec?

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by IUHoosiergirl88

As an active in a non-SEC school, recs meant absolutely nothing to me. Sure, we knew if a girl had a rec, but I cared more about if that PNM was going to fit in with our chapter than if they had a rec. A rec doesn't tell me anything about that girl's personality, her likes/dislikes/desires in a chapter, or what she stands for as a person. Those are things that mattered most to me as an active, and I felt I could only find out through conversation, not on a piece of paper.

This is EXACTLY what a good rec contains. it is a written recommendation to join the group, AND also attempts at broadening the picture of the pnm for the actives. The standard rush application provides the facts - the rec fills in the blanks for the chapter. Anecdotal information, intangibles, personality traits, etc are all conveyed in a good rec because (hopefully) the alum is doing the early leg work for you. (not always, obviously, but a lot of the time)

And those of you from non competitive recruitments who keep telling us you didn't know what a rec was - we get it. But do not turn your nose up at the process simply because you didn't experience it. Neither the "SEC" nor the others are worse for it. It simply IS part of recruitment in this region, and the chapters find a way to make it work for them.

And one final thought - This very rec issue is also a product of the adult alumnae environment in the South. ( I am using the South loosely but am obviously talking about competitive recruitments wherever) Sorority is important in the adult world in this region. People do not graduate and never think about Kappa again. They join the alumnae club, and usually right away. So, it would stand to reason that a role for alumnae during recruitment would be strong and an integral part of the process.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

To preface: I come from a campus where recs are not rare, but not common. Less than 10% of PNMs had a rec my senior year.

Let's pretend a girl who I know fairly well is going through recruitment at [insert favorite SEC school]. I may not have stories about her, but know her fairly well, well enough that I would recruit her heavily for my chapter. However the chapter at SEC University don't know me from any other alumnae. What does the bold part say about my rec?

This is the key - do you really know how to write a "proper SEC rec?" Without asking for private MS information, do you know what YOUR group considers a proper rec? I know how to write a lot of different kinds of recs:
one for a top girl coming out of a top HS, one for an average to above average girl who may not look all that great on paper but would really be an asset, one for the girl who is average or below (for whatever reasons) but who does look good on paper and, of course, the "no" rec no matter if she is Ms Dog Hollow. It's not just filling out the form and checking boxes. It's the added info...stellar academic and supportive, involved Greek family or very average student according to her HS counselor, always had concerns about her academics, will be taking remedial classes, and then the "I do not support this woman for membership in AAA. An adviser may contact me for details" which, at big SEC school, she probably will. At that point you tell about the arrest record, whatever and the adviser handles it. I would imagine that the recruitment team for each NPC group at big SEC school can tell a perfunctory rec from a well written one a mile away.

And while we're at it, I would venture most NPC groups began with the requirement that all new members be sponsored/recommended by another - like most organizations/clubs who restrict membership do. The members would consider a woman who was sort of nominated and then decide whether to ask her to perform certain tasks to see if she was someone who could fit into the membership. Did you know that many groups required their potential members to write an academic paper on a particular topic and then present it to the membership? And that the membership researched her family? (people didn't travel far for college back int hose days - particularly women).

You just can't go sign up for most private country clubs, dinner clubs, men's clubs, etc. Someone has to put your name forward. This is a holdover from that era. Some groups still strictly hold to it, some not so much.

[HQWest]

Wow - I go out of town for a few and y'all light up yhe boards! Let me see if I can explain this from my chapter's prospective.

This is not for everybody. Go back and look at your symphony or your pillars or your mission statement. One of those tenets is probably scholarship and another service. This is an honor society. We want outstanding young ladies both for a great social aspect and for a great networking or team building aspect. It would be great if everyone went to a local school and pledged at chapters where several girls already knew them - but thats not the way it works anymore. (Even for deferred recruitment.)

A rec gives us a chance to take a chance on someone we don't know. We are going to invite her to live in our house and to really be our sister. A NPC sorority is for a life time. If you just want to meet people - join the Spanish club or something. If you had trouble with grades - please spend some time on your books. Its all for nothing - if you are Miss Super but cant graduate?

. If you really have no one in your area that you can ask for a rec - wouldn't it be better for you in the long run to join the group of someone you know? So you have a place - a friend - to go back to when you graduate?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

And those of you from non competitive recruitments who keep telling us you didn't know what a rec was - we get it. But do not turn your nose up at the process simply because you didn't experience it. Neither the "SEC" nor the others are worse for it. It simply IS part of recruitment in this region, and the chapters find a way to make it work for them.

Who exactly is turning their nose up at the process? As far as I can tell, we're all asking questions and trying to understand why they're necessary and what they do to assist in the recruitment process.

And those that have provided their opinion that they should be eliminated seem to have had some experience with them.

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Who exactly is turning their nose up at the process? As far as I can tell, we're all asking questions and trying to understand why they're necessary and what they do to assist in the recruitment process.

And those that have provided their opinion that they should be eliminated seem to have had some experience with them.

Plenty of people have posted on GC in other threads, mostly PNMs, "I can't find recs and therefore I won't," or "They aren't common at my school so I won't bother." That's fine. I take issue with sorority members stating that their chapter wouldn't know what to do with a rec if they got one, contending they have no value, and theorizing that a rec could hurt a PNM at such a school where they are not common.

You know what would help? If each sorority providing training materials to all alumnae about recommendations, which includes a discussion on their purpose, how to write a good one, and how the recommendation is considered in membership selection. I think that having a "Recommendation Writing Workshop" as an Alumnae Association workshop would be a tremendous help to alumnae and the chapters who receive recommendations.

It would also help for the collegians to understand the value their sorority places on recs as it pertains to membership selection. I personally did not understand the value of a rec to my sorority until I was a recent graduate and assisted the recruitment information manager behind the scenes. When I was in college, recs were not the norm yet (that has changed a lot at UCF) and it was a big deal when someone with a rec came through! But none of us understood the value; just that a revered alumna had recommended the young lady and that we should take that seriously before we cut her out of respect to the alumna. Then again, we also had a sorority director who acted as a pseudo adviser at our recruitment and who would be very very firm with us about our legacies and rec girls. Not all schools/chapters are like that.

During college, you learn HOW to rush someone and the basics of member selection. You don't necessarily learn how all those moving parts-- the application, the legacy status, the recs, the interviews, the grades, the release figures-- all come together to determine who stays and who gets cut. Or if you do, it goes over your head or we might not be having this conversation. That sort of education would be helpful to collegians because they would take that knowledge with them as alumnae who end up writing recs.

I recall one chapter of my sorority who threw recs out when they received them because they didn't know what to do with them until they got a recruitment adviser who trained them. I was flabbergasted at this because the officers receive training at Districts and have sorority handbooks to guide them in doing their job, but human error or willful ignorance is as human error/wilful ignorance does. In the case of that chapter, the rec didn't help or hurt. The chapter still took the girls they wanted.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by Titchou

This is the key - do you really know how to write a "proper SEC rec?" Without asking for private MS information, do you know what YOUR group considers a proper rec? I know how to write a lot of different kinds of recs:

Considering the numbers of OOS PNMs, and the OOS composition of pledge classes at Bama, I doubt that the OOS alumnae writing these recs have ever heard of “a proper SEC rec.” I’ve actually never heard that term – and I’ve written recs at Bama for decades.

Originally Posted by Titchou

one for a top girl coming out of a top HS, one for an average to above average girl who may not look all that great on paper but would really be an asset, one for the girl who is average or below (for whatever reasons) but who does look good on paper and, of course, the "no" rec no matter if she is Ms Dog Hollow.

I don’t agree with writing unsolicited “no” recs. If there is some (verified) circumstance that would call a girl’s eventual membership into question, then that could be communicated privately to a chapter advisor -- rec or not. I feel like the other information (academics, activities, etc) is the same regardless of who submits the info (alum or PNM).

Originally Posted by Titchou

It's not just filling out the form and checking boxes. It's the added info...stellar academic and supportive, involved Greek family or very average student according to her HS counselor, always had concerns about her academics, will be taking remedial classes,

I hope that no high school counselor, in her capacity as a high school counselor, is discussing girls with sorority alumnae – this would be a violation of confidentiality, and potential liability with a capital L.

.

[Titchou]

1) That's my term for it - hence the quotation marks around it.

2) What your GLO requires, I do not know. I only know the way we do it. I won't argue with the procedures of yours if you won't argue with mine.

3) That's public information as it is on her transcript and her class schedule. Putting it in those terms on a rec - in a proper way - is calling it to the chapter's attention - particularly if she becomes a "rush crush."

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

I hope that no high school counselor, in her capacity as a high school counselor, is discussing girls with sorority alumnae – this would be a violation of confidentiality, and potential liability with a capital L.

Our form includes a box you can check off that indicates you don't know a PNM personally, but you have obtained information about her from a reliable source, such as a teacher, clergy, or Panhellenic files.

I am unaware of any high school counselor-student confidentiality privilege. This may vary from state to state. A guidance counselor is not a psychiatrist or psychologist. They are in a position of trust, yes, and can speak to the student's academic record and activities and general community reputation as any other person could. The student is putting their grades and activities out there for scrutiny by the sororities. Their transcripts will indicate any blemishes by suspensions or expulsions. I fail to see what liability you speak of. If the student is in counseling with the guidance counselor, there may be a privilege and liability if the counselor reveals confidential discussions about mental health.

I have friends who are high school counselors. They may talk about their students in the abstract without naming names, just like a doctor or lawyer could, and there's no violation.

I can't imagine any high school counselor going out of her way to make negative statements to sorority alumnae for the purpose of reporting someone for a no-rec to a sorority she is not a member of. That's absurd and vindictive. That doesn't mean it can't happen; it is just highly unlikely. Adults have better things to do than to act like teenage girls. And guidance counselors take their roles seriously to help students.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

I am unaware of any high school counselor-student confidentiality privilege. This may vary from state to state. A guidance counselor is not a psychiatrist or psychologist. They are in a position of trust, yes, and can speak to the student's academic record and activities and general community reputation as any other person could. The student is putting their grades and activities out there for scrutiny by the sororities. Their transcripts will indicate any blemishes by suspensions or expulsions. I fail to see what liability you speak of.

This would probably fall under Federal law (which supersedes state or local law/policies) -- the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA):

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/f...rpa/index.html


This might be loosely considered the educational equivalent of HIPAA in healthcare, which the general public is probably more familiar with.

[IndianaSigKap]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

This is EXACTLY what a good rec contains. it is a written recommendation to join the group, AND also attempts at broadening the picture of the pnm for the actives. The standard rush application provides the facts - the rec fills in the blanks for the chapter. Anecdotal information, intangibles, personality traits, etc are all conveyed in a good rec because (hopefully) the alum is doing the early leg work for you. (not always, obviously, but a lot of the time)

This section of the quote I copied was in reply to a statement that IUHoosiergirl88 made about looking for girls who fit into the chapter. My question would be how does an alumna know if a particular woman fits into a chapter that's 1000 miles away? I know that within my own GLO, I have first hand knowledge of at least 5 chapters. Each of the 5 chapters varies greatly in size and culture. Knowing this, I don't know if a student I was writing a rec for would be a good fit for the chapter. I would most definitely write a good rec for her. I know that I write good recommendations, my college/scholarship letters are very well done and organizations often tell the candidate how strong the letter was. But in the end does Polly Pledge fit into that chapter? If the women in the chapter don't think so, I am not going to be one of those alums who gets her nose out of joint if they don't pledge her. Sometimes the women have recs but are not just good fits for the chapter.

[adpiucf]

Hartofsec, this is incorrect. FERPA does not make the guidance counselor liable in this scenario. The only way to hold her liable under FERPA in your hypothetical is where some busy body alumna finds out Susie Q is going to SEC University and decides to contact the high school to get Susie's education records for whatever reason AND THE COUNSELOR GIVES THEM TO HER. She can call the counselor to get information about Susie's honors and awards without any FERPA violation. FERPA doesn't prevent the counselor from discussing her mental impressions of the student. She just can't release any written notes in the student's advising folder. Private notes, campus police records, and medical records are not education records under FERPA.

FERPA governs the right of education records. Parents hold that right until the child turns 18. Then the child, now an adult holds that right. The child is putting their education records at "issue" for the purpose of going through recruitment and has allowed Panhellenic and the sororities to view their transcripts. FERPA means that a parent can't call up their adult child's college later demanding to know how they're doing in Organic Chemistry. If the student to consents to a background check, FERPA does not apply.

FERPA prevents the school from releasing information about a student's "education record" without written consent of the parent/child above age 18. However, FERPA allows schools to disclose those records, without consent, to certain parties or under some conditions, including schools where a student is transferring, to comply with judicial order/subpoena, etc. Schools may disclose, without consent, "directory" information such as a student's name, address, telephone number, date and place of birth, honors and awards, and dates of attendance. There must be notice of the disclosure, and notice is considered sufficient by FERPA if students are notified of the possibility of such disclosure occurring via their student handbook or a public notice informing them about FERPA.

A guidance counselor's actions are imputed to the school. A guidance counselor may observe FERPA and disclose this directory information. Moreover, the student matriculating has provided written consent for the university and Panhellenic to view their education record. There is no violation here for a guidance counselor to provide directory information to an alumna writing a rec. The alumna has also been provided with the student's education record by the student herself.

There is no legal privilege here or liability to the counselor/school when you, the subject of the matter, put that something (your records) at issue for consideration. You've consented.

ETA: Also, if we're asserting liability, you also have to consider that liability means lawsuit. A lawsuit requires actual injury. Where are you suing? State court? Federal court? Either way, there's no FERPA violation, so let's default to state court. What is the counselor liable for? Defamation or invasion of privacy? This is unlikely unless the counselor made patently false statements about the student or violated her reasonable expectation of privacy, and again, the student has already put her grades at issue by going through recruitment and consenting to have her education records verified. What is the measure of damages? The sorority can't be forced to take her as a member, and she'll have to prove money damages as a result of her damaged reputation to that sorority chapter for the no-rec? It all seems highly unlikely that any money damages can be assessed. If there's no remedy available, the court can't redress the grievance and will conclude there is no harm. If the counselor gets disciplined or fired for any of this, she does have a legal remedy that can be addressed for wrongful termination because she has done nothing wrong.

While we're at this, just want to make sure no one is taking this as legal advice.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

This is incorrect.

FERPA governs the right of education records. Parents hold that right until the child turns 18. Then the child, now an adult holds that right. The child is putting their education records at "issue" for the purpose of going through recruitment and has allowed Panhellenic and the sororities to view their transcripts.

FERPA prevents the school from releasing information about a student's "education record" without written consent of the parent/child above age 18. However, FERPA allows schools to disclose those records, without consent, to certain parties or under some conditions, including schools where a student is transferring, to comply with judicial order/subpoena, etc. Schools may disclose, without consent, "directory" information such as a student's name, address, telephone number, date and place of birth, honors and awards, and dates of attendance. There must be notice of the disclosure, and notice is considered sufficient by FERPA if students are notified of the possibility of such disclosure occurring via their student handbook or a public notice informing them about FERPA.

A guidance counselor's actions are imputed to the school. A guidance counselor may observe FERPA and disclose this directory information. Moreover, the student matriculating has provided written consent for the university and Panhellenic to view their education record. There is no violation here for a guidance counselor to provide directory information to an alumna writing a rec. The alumna has been provided with the student's education record by the student herself.

There is no legal privilege here or liability to the counselor/school when you, the subject of the matter, put that something (your records) at issue for consideration. You've consented.

But the conditions under which the release of information apply do not include the Guidance Counselor rendering opinions such as:

or very average student according to her HS counselor, always had concerns about her academics, will be taking remedial classes, and then the "I do not support this woman for membership in AAA

That is not info that would be included in a directory (with or without permission), and a sorority is not on the list of agencies that info may be released to for any purpose.

As far as I know, PNMs consent for official transcript info to be sent to the school of application, but make copies of their transcript (unofficial) to include in rec packets given to alums. The high schools that I know of are not in the business of sending official transcripts to sororites and alums.

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by IndianaSigKap

This section of the quote I copied was in reply to a statement that IUHoosiergirl88 made about looking for girls who fit into the chapter. My question would be how does an alumna know if a particular woman fits into a chapter that's 1000 miles away? I know that within my own GLO, I have first hand knowledge of at least 5 chapters. Each of the 5 chapters varies greatly in size and culture. Knowing this, I don't know if a student I was writing a rec for would be a good fit for the chapter. I would most definitely write a good rec for her. I know that I write good recommendations, my college/scholarship letters are very well done and organizations often tell the candidate how strong the letter was. But in the end does Polly Pledge fit into that chapter? If the women in the chapter don't think so, I am not going to be one of those alums who gets her nose out of joint if they don't pledge her. Sometimes the women have recs but are not just good fits for the chapter.

You make a good point but we are writing a rec for a girl we think would fit our GLO, not a specific chapter. If she is meets the GLO's criteria for membership at State U, then she meets it for Small Private U, too.

And, of course, you shouldn't get your nose out of joint if they don't take her. Ultimately, this is the chapter's decison. All you did was point out a good candidate for membership. They will know if she fits into their dynamic or not.