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  #16  
Old 11-21-2014, 06:06 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
All those are good ideas. But they can get twisted around. For example:



Girl is platonic friends with boy, boy calls her upset about this or that, girl goes to his fraternity house to help him talk it out, girl gets terminated because she wasn't accompanied by 5 sisters. Better women learn how to handle themselves and avoid averse situations without being shepherded by sorority rules.

Why were women supporting this fraternity at all?
Well, back in the dark ages when I was an active, a Chi O at the state's flagship university was abducted, raped, murdered, and then dumped in a field. Our chapter advisers were all over that horrific event. (We, the murdered Chi O and I, had been high school classmates, so it hit even closer to home for me. A male friend from high school was one of the group of young men who found her.) There were no rules, per se, but many firmly stressed guidelines and given over a period of time and often repeated. There was some initial eye-rolling, but we took them seriously. An alternative to meeting an upset young frat friend at his house would be to meet elsewhere or even at the sorority house.

I don't know why young women were supporting this fraternity. I suppose they wanted to be seen as being "cool". In their minds this was considered a "top tier" frat. And also the fear of being blamed by other students. The lack of support for victims among other students is appalling.
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2014, 06:09 PM
exlurker exlurker is offline
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An NBC affiliate posted Phi Kappa Psi's statement.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/27451877/...-stone-article
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2014, 06:20 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Originally Posted by exlurker View Post
Update: Problems with the Selection of Person to deal with Investigation

http://wtvr.com/2014/11/21/mark-fili...investigation/
People here in VA are all over this incident and a case of conflict of interest would be quickly pointed out. I know our attorney general Mark Herring (all the candidates love to come to my small city and meet us in small groups) and am pretty confident he will oversee an honest and complete investigation. If he doesn't, he will hear about it very clearly.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2014, 07:11 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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This article in The Cavalier Daily is being well received. Excerpted:

There is something we can do about this. The best remedy for ambiguity and false facts is the provision of real information. Greek women need to make it very clear to first-year girls that sexual assault — as it relates to discussion, activism and reporting — is not evaluated during sorority recruitment. This should be done in a clear, explicit fashion — most sensibly through official presentations given to first-year women in their dorms.
The ISC is moving toward more transparency, sponsoring a number of Go-Greek Nights in recent years — though these events are opt-in, and unsurprisingly tend more along the lines of, “What should I wear to Round Robbins?” and less along the lines of, “I was assaulted last weekend, but didn’t want to report it because I am worried about the stigma within the Greek system.” By establishing formal networks of communication between older women in the Greek system and first years predicated upon issues of sexual assault — a “some-contact policy,” if you will — we can begin to combat this.
The first six weeks of college are known as the “red-zone” for first-year women, who are more likely to be assaulted during this period than at any other point in their college careers. As a first year, I did not know this. I just wanted to get into Phi Psi.
Any opportunity to provide accurate information to this vulnerable population of women should and must be acted upon. Barriers to entry help define the Greek system, but barriers to information absolutely cannot.


http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article...idnt-know-then
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  #20  
Old 11-21-2014, 07:56 PM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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^^^ My response to that article:

1. I want there to be fewer suggestions on what women should do to prevent this unless it will be matched by suggestions to men.

2. There are few, if any, articles written to men (in general) and fraternity men (in particular) on what to do to prevent themselves from being the perpetrator and from being the assistant to the perpetrator.

3. These incidents are in a GLO context but power struggles and community climates should be addressed beyond the GLO context. I believe more change happens when addressing both the larger issue and the GLO-specific issues.
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  #21  
Old 11-21-2014, 09:42 PM
WCUgirl WCUgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by dukemama View Post
I don't believe there's any coincidence that UVA selected a federal judge with ties to Phi Kappa Psi to lead the investigation.
A few things:

UVA didn't select him, Mark Herring did.

He wasn't selected to lead the fraternity investigation, he was selected to lead the university's policy revision. He was actually a very well-qualified candidate to do this, as his firm's profile page reflects (Kirkland Ellis).

I don't understand how people think a former prosecutor, assistant attorney general, and federal district judge is unable to lead an impartial/unbiased investigation merely because he was a member of the fraternity at issue, despite having been initiated at an entirely different university.
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2014, 10:17 PM
amIblue? amIblue? is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCUgirl View Post
A few things:

UVA didn't select him, Mark Herring did.

He wasn't selected to lead the fraternity investigation, he was selected to lead the university's policy revision. He was actually a very well-qualified candidate to do this, as his firm's profile page reflects (Kirkland Ellis).

I don't understand how people think a former prosecutor, assistant attorney general, and federal district judge is unable to lead an impartial/unbiased investigation merely because he was a member of the fraternity at issue, despite having been initiated at an entirely different university.
While he may very well be capable of being impartial, the allegations in this situation are serious enough that there needs to be no room for doubt in the eyes of the public so that whatever decision is reached is unimpeachable in its integrity. Membership in the fraternity in question is sufficient to cast doubt in the eyes of the public.
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Last edited by amIblue?; 11-21-2014 at 10:30 PM.
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  #23  
Old 11-21-2014, 10:27 PM
Low D Flat Low D Flat is offline
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^^^ This. In fact, I'm shocked that Judge Filip apparently accepted the assignment in light of the appearance of conflict. There are a lot of excellent lawyers in this country who aren't members of Phi Psi.
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  #24  
Old 11-21-2014, 10:50 PM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
^^^ My response to that article:

1. I want there to be fewer suggestions on what women should do to prevent this unless it will be matched by suggestions to men.

2. There are few, if any, articles written to men (in general) and fraternity men (in particular) on what to do to prevent themselves from being the perpetrator and from being the assistant to the perpetrator.

3. These incidents are in a GLO context but power struggles and community climates should be addressed beyond the GLO context. I believe more change happens when addressing both the larger issue and the GLO-specific issues.
Right now, the leaders on the UVA campus addressing this most serious issue are not GLO affiliated. And the organizations that have formed on campus addressing student rape are not what you would call "mainstream". The Greek Community on the UVA campus is most certainly mainstream. As is the student government organization to which many Greeks are elected. IMO it is in the interests of the campus Greeks to step up to the plate and demonstrate some leadership and get on board in a meaningful way.

In the best of all possible worlds it would be wonderful if young women didn't have to worry about being raped on campus due to the changes in the young men and the entire community was on board. But how realistic is this? If our daughter were currently on a college campus, I certainly wouldn't wait until the young men got on board to teach her self-preservation techniques. And would HOPE that there were support for her to employ these techniques on campus from her peers. And most certainly support for her should she be a victim.

It would be nice if we could be all things to all people, but we can't. Yes, there is a great deal of enabling behavior both on campus and off, including in police systems and the legal system. And even among alumni. And in this case the administration of the school. That must change as well. But about all we can do as individuals is within our own communities, including our GLOs.
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  #25  
Old 11-21-2014, 11:24 PM
MysticCat MysticCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCUgirl View Post
I don't understand how people think a former prosecutor, assistant attorney general, and federal district judge is unable to lead an impartial/unbiased investigation merely because he was a member of the fraternity at issue, despite having been initiated at an entirely different university.
It's pretty basic, actually. Appearances matter; it's necessary not only to avoid actual conflicts, but also any appearance of conflict. Otherwise, there's the real risk of a perception of an inadequate investigation at best and a cover-up to protect Phi Psi at worst—especially given the perception, which certainly has a basis in fact, that fraternity members stick together and protect each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low D Flat View Post
In fact, I'm shocked that Judge Filip apparently accepted the assignment in light of the appearance of conflict.
That was my very first thought—why in the world did he accept? How could he not have seen it would raise eyebrows? It's a no-brainer.
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2014, 11:44 PM
Munchkin03 Munchkin03 is offline
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Originally Posted by exlurker View Post
Excellent question, and one that I hope sorority members, advisers, Panhellenics, and so on will seriously ask themselves. It's troubling to know that sororities can feel that it's more important to be able to mix / party with (at least some) fraternities than to support undergrad sisters in cases like this.

For example, see
http://wtvr.com/2014/11/21/uva-stude...-lot-of-power/
Also, it's part of the "cool girl" thing that's such a big deal with the youngsters. A "cool girl" doesn't support other women when they're being attacked by men. A "cool girl" doesn't let that stuff happen to her because a "cool girl" knows how to handle her booze. Ugh.
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  #27  
Old 11-22-2014, 12:18 AM
1964Alum 1964Alum is offline
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^^^ And that it precisely why the "Cool Girls" in the GLOs need to make it very clear that it is not "cool" to protect a rapist. And for fraternity men to clearly and frequently state that it is disgusting and reprehensible to indulge or enable such behavior. Not at ALL "cool".
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  #28  
Old 11-22-2014, 01:20 AM
StealthMode StealthMode is offline
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
This quote resonates: "Grab its motherfucking leg"
That is the part of the article that made my blood run cold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Angel View Post
That and the complete lack of empathy displayed by students as UVA towards victims of sexual assault struck me as horrific. Dehumanize the victim and tell them that they should just get over it.
The young lady's supposed friends saying that she should keep quiet or else none of them would have a chance of becoming Greek reminded me of people who have been hazed (to the point of injury) being told by other aspirants/pledges to keep quiet because getting the chapter suspended ruins everyone's chances at membership. Or when women want to file sexual harassment complaints in the workplace and are scolded for "wanting a good man to lose his job." This mentality of "shut up and keep our happy little world happy" is prevalent across so many domains I could puke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
ETA: One of the Cavalier articles says that it's not for sure that all seven men were fraternity brothers. Is this true?
In the article, the young lady said she heard one of the men say (paraphrase), "Don't you want to be one of us?" which made me think there was a pledge or aspirant in the group of perpetrators.
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  #29  
Old 11-22-2014, 10:25 AM
KDCat KDCat is offline
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“Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Men actually think this girl exists. Maybe they’re fooled because so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl. For a long time Cool Girl offended me. I used to see men – friends, coworkers, strangers – giddy over these awful pretender women, and I’d want to sit these men down and calmly say: You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them. I’d want to grab the poor guy by his lapels or messenger bag and say: The bitch doesn’t really love chili dogs that much – no one loves chili dogs that much! And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They’re not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they’re pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be. Oh, and if you’re not a Cool Girl, I beg you not to believe that your man doesn’t want the Cool Girl. It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics. There are variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants Cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn’t ever complain. (How do you know you’re not a Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”)”
― Gillian Flynn, Gone Girl
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  #30  
Old 11-22-2014, 10:37 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by KDCat View Post
“Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.
This is hilarious.

The last sentence definitely doesn't exist (in my experiences). Every woman I know who fits at least some of the "cool girl" description gets annoyed when need be, angry when need be, and would cuss the man out if need be. One of the points is to be on level playing field with men and that includes treating men only how they deserve to be treated.

Last edited by DrPhil; 11-22-2014 at 10:48 AM.
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