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  #181  
Old 03-08-2013, 01:28 PM
Titchou Titchou is online now
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Originally Posted by MaggieXi View Post
We only know how our respective sororities use recs during membership selection. To start pointing fingers at people and ask what they are doing about it within their organization is not helpful to the conversation.
It wasn't my intention to point fingers, so to speak. It just seemed odd that she kept stating the same thing over and over. I just wondered if she had ever talked with an official in her group about it.

I really find all this chatter about recs sort of odd. Many social organizations require recommendations for membership such as country clubs, mens clubs in NYC, some Mardi Gras Krewes, the Boston Club in NOLA, etc. It isn't a foreign concept. And I would venture to guess that many of our founders thought it was a good idea too - hence the requirement today. It was definitely a requirement of Anna, Eva and Mary for us.

Last edited by Titchou; 03-08-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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  #182  
Old 03-08-2013, 10:31 PM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by Titchou View Post
I really find all this chatter about recs sort of odd. Many social organizations require recommendations for membership such as country clubs, mens clubs in NYC, some Mardi Gras Krewes, the Boston Club in NOLA, etc. It isn't a foreign concept. And I would venture to guess that many of our founders thought it was a good idea too - hence the requirement today. It was definitely a requirement of Anna, Eva and Mary for us.

I guess that is part of what I am questioning -- this appeal to antiquity.

Little, if anything, about formal recruitment now would be similar to joining a sorority 140 years ago. A personal recommendation likely meant something different then. Certainly the recommendation system in the history of elite clubs has been used as often to exclude people as it has to include others -- and are we really trying to emulate exclusive men's clubs? Think of how legacy status alone has changed over the years in clubs and in GLOs.

A recommendation based on knowing a PNM’s grandmother, for instance, puts us back to “she’s from a nice family.” It really isn’t a personal recommendation based on knowledge of the PNM.

RFM would not exist if no one questioned the status quo. Pre-RFM, the stronger recruiting chapters at Bama dominated, while the weaker chapters struggled – some were forced to close. It was difficult (if not impossible) for a colonizing chapter to be successful.

RFM helps put chapters on a more equal footing. I’m just wondering if a different perspective on our current rec system might do the same for PNMs (and reduce a lot of paper for the chapters too).

I realize that there must be some basis for retaining and releasing PNMs (and due to the numbers, it will not be additional time during rounds). Would a detailed resume submitted online serve this purpose? Instead of mountains of paper in the form of triplicate resumes on PNMs (arranged in a thousand different formats), every chapter would receive the information on every PNM organized in the same format (sort of like scholarship resumes are submitted to colleges – even med schools and other post-graduate professional programs use an online centralized app process). Some online recruitment registrations already ask for some of this info. A transcript could also be submitted for verification of grades, and a photo could be uploaded as well.

Alums who wish to write a personal letter for a special PNM they know could still do so. I feel like this type of letter might be more likely to actually reflect personal knowledge of the PNM (would be difficult to write otherwise), and that these would be far fewer in number. How these are treated, beyond drawing attention to the alum’s input, would be determined by the chapter.

Last edited by Hartofsec; 03-08-2013 at 10:51 PM.
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  #183  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:42 PM
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AnchorAlumna AnchorAlumna is offline
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This thread now seems like, oh, I dunno:
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  #184  
Old 03-09-2013, 09:56 AM
HQWest HQWest is offline
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LOL indeed
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  #185  
Old 03-09-2013, 11:17 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Originally Posted by Hartofsec View Post
I realize that there must be some basis for retaining and releasing PNMs (and due to the numbers, it will not be additional time during rounds). Would a detailed resume submitted online serve this purpose? Instead of mountains of paper in the form of triplicate resumes on PNMs (arranged in a thousand different formats), every chapter would receive the information on every PNM organized in the same format (sort of like scholarship resumes are submitted to colleges – even med schools and other post-graduate professional programs use an online centralized app process). Some online recruitment registrations already ask for some of this info. A transcript could also be submitted for verification of grades, and a photo could be uploaded as well.
Do you mean submitted to the school's Panhel or submitted to the sorority's HQ?
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  #186  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:49 PM
Titchou Titchou is online now
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
Do you mean submitted to the school's Panhel or submitted to the sorority's HQ?
Most schools around here and all the large schools (USC, Texas, etc) all have online registration that includes the resume information. We get that from the CPH. That's not the main purpose of a rec. You can find that in the HS annual.4
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  #187  
Old 03-10-2013, 12:36 AM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by 33girl View Post
Do you mean submitted to the school's Panhel or submitted to the sorority's HQ?
To the school's Panhellenic -- just like recruitment registration. When my dd registered for recruitment, some of this information was requested, though limited in scope. Just looking around at various sites – I see SMU’s page lists info for PNMs to include (and instructs to upload a photo as well):
https://smu.mycampusdirector.com/register/

Back in the bad ol’ days, the only way a chapter would have these details on a girl might be from a recommendation of an alum who knew her well. If this is no longer (potentially) necessary, then the only purpose remaining would be the check in the box recommending the PNM for membership (which as someone mentioned earlier in the thread -- might be from the PNM’s mom’s dentist’s wife’s aunt or something). And does this result in a “better” pledge class at Big Southern U than at Northern State where this step is not customary?

Alums could still recommend a PNM for membership -- as far as I know, there is nothing to prevent an alum from sending a letter of support for any PNM she is passionate about (whether the PNM requests a rec or not). This would require a lot less paper to manage on everyone’s part – and it might help confine the letters to PNMs who the alum actually knows well.

And similarly, if so inclined, alums can track and ***warn*** chapters of Jezebels and felons -- I don’t really see any need to complete a rec form for that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna View Post
Really and truly, those ***warning*** recs are more valuable than the ones for the (presumably) "good" girls.

Please alumnae...if you know something, alert the chapter! Don't assume that if there's no rec, they won't pledge that candidate!
Personally, I just wouldn’t feel right about agreeing to write recs for PNMs I then threw under the rush bus, unless there was a very compelling reason to do so. I guess girls should remember that when an alum offers or agrees to write them a recommendation, it may not be because the alum plans to write a positive recommendation.

Last edited by Hartofsec; 03-10-2013 at 01:08 AM.
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  #188  
Old 03-10-2013, 08:25 AM
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AOII Angel AOII Angel is offline
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Originally Posted by Hartofsec View Post
To the school's Panhellenic -- just like recruitment registration. When my dd registered for recruitment, some of this information was requested, though limited in scope. Just looking around at various sites – I see SMU’s page lists info for PNMs to include (and instructs to upload a photo as well):
https://smu.mycampusdirector.com/register/

Back in the bad ol’ days, the only way a chapter would have these details on a girl might be from a recommendation of an alum who knew her well. If this is no longer (potentially) necessary, then the only purpose remaining would be the check in the box recommending the PNM for membership (which as someone mentioned earlier in the thread -- might be from the PNM’s mom’s dentist’s wife’s aunt or something). And does this result in a “better” pledge class at Big Southern U than at Northern State where this step is not customary?

Alums could still recommend a PNM for membership -- as far as I know, there is nothing to prevent an alum from sending a letter of support for any PNM she is passionate about (whether the PNM requests a rec or not). This would require a lot less paper to manage on everyone’s part – and it might help confine the letters to PNMs who the alum actually knows well.

And similarly, if so inclined, alums can track and ***warn*** chapters of Jezebels and felons -- I don’t really see any need to complete a rec form for that:


Personally, I just wouldn’t feel right about agreeing to write recs for PNMs I then threw under the rush bus, unless there was a very compelling reason to do so. I guess girls should remember that when an alum offers or agrees to write them a recommendation, it may not be because the alum plans to write a positive recommendation.


I've written them before. Girls with really poor GPAs. I've given the reasons for the poor performance, but I didn't recommend them for membership. I'm not the last word so the chapter can do what they will with the information I provide. I didn't find it compelling to excuse the grade issue, but with a relationship made during recruitment, that information may be enough to get the woman a pass. Honestly, that's what my rec is for anyway, to give my chapter information they can use when making a decision. One thing I was taught a long time ago was to ask "Can you write me a GOOD recommendation?" not just "Can you write me a recommendation?"
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Last edited by AOII Angel; 03-10-2013 at 08:28 AM.
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  #189  
Old 03-10-2013, 08:49 AM
Titchou Titchou is online now
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One, I say to PNMs with bad grades: "you know, I'm going to have to be honest about your grades." It may not be fun to have to say but I feel I owe it to them to be honest with them.

Two, no PNM who was a "no" ever asked me for a rec. I have only done about 3 or 4 and I don't think any of them knew or thought about whether I am in a sorority.
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  #190  
Old 03-10-2013, 09:06 AM
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When you live out of the rec bubble region, I think it's more common to run into this. I was honest about it, and asked for an explanation. It also gave me an opportunity to discuss the probable outcome of recruitment. Northern girl heading to SEC with bad grades equals bad result. :/
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Last edited by AOII Angel; 03-10-2013 at 09:10 AM.
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  #191  
Old 03-10-2013, 10:34 AM
Titchou Titchou is online now
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Excellent way to handle, AOII_Angel.
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  #192  
Old 03-10-2013, 02:15 PM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by AOII Angel View Post

I've written them before. Girls with really poor GPAs. I've given the reasons for the poor performance, but I didn't recommend them for membership. I'm not the last word so the chapter can do what they will with the information I provide. I didn't find it compelling to excuse the grade issue, but with a relationship made during recruitment, that information may be enough to get the woman a pass. Honestly, that's what my rec is for anyway, to give my chapter information they can use when making a decision.

I think giving the chapter information regarding extenuating circumstances that may have negatively influenced the GPA is helpful to the chapter (a PNM might even receive some accommodations from the school for a learning disability). I would imagine, however, that a no rec would likely eliminate the PNM from consideration (assuming the chapter needs a recommendation for membership).

Otherwise, the GPA and (final) official transcript would be have been submitted to the school for use in verification anyway, and the chapters can use these to make decisions about grades.

I do agree that it is a good idea for girls to understand the obstacle that a poor GPA may present during recruitment. This wouldn’t be the same as sending a *warning* rec on a girl that one heard is not “morally acceptable,” for instance. I doubt an alum would want to explain that to a PNM who asked for a recommendation.
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  #193  
Old 03-10-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hartofsec View Post
I think giving the chapter information regarding extenuating circumstances that may have negatively influenced the GPA is helpful to the chapter (a PNM might even receive some accommodations from the school for a learning disability). I would imagine, however, that a no rec would likely eliminate the PNM from consideration (assuming the chapter needs a recommendation for membership).

Otherwise, the GPA and (final) official transcript would be have been submitted to the school for use in verification anyway, and the chapters can use these to make decisions about grades.

I do agree that it is a good idea for girls to understand the obstacle that a poor GPA may present during recruitment. This wouldn’t be the same as sending a *warning* rec on a girl that one heard is not “morally acceptable,” for instance. I doubt an alum would want to explain that to a PNM who asked for a recommendation.
I agree about the warning rec. I don't usually know any dirt about girls of that age group to be able to send that type of rec. AOII doesn't require recs for membership, however, a no-rec with specific amoral specifics would be a kiss of death, I'm quite sure. I know we've had this discussion before about whether or not to no-rec. IMHO, if I for certain knew information that I morally felt disqualified a woman from membership, I would no-rec someone in a heartbeat. My loyalty is to AOII. I, of course, have really liberal views, so you'd have had to kill someone to shock me (not really that bad, but you get the picture.)
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  #194  
Old 03-10-2013, 04:44 PM
ForeverRoses ForeverRoses is offline
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I agree about the warning rec. I don't usually know any dirt about girls of that age group to be able to send that type of rec. AOII doesn't require recs for membership, however, a no-rec with specific amoral specifics would be a kiss of death, I'm quite sure. I know we've had this discussion before about whether or not to no-rec. IMHO, if I for certain knew information that I morally felt disqualified a woman from membership, I would no-rec someone in a heartbeat. My loyalty is to AOII. I, of course, have really liberal views, so you'd have had to kill someone to shock me (not really that bad, but you get the picture.)
I've never seen a no-rec, but I did see one that was completely honest. It basically said that the girl was shy at first but once she warmed up she was great. It was refreshing to see one that was honest rather than "she is the best thing since sliced bread!".
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  #195  
Old 03-10-2013, 05:24 PM
Hartofsec Hartofsec is offline
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Originally Posted by ForeverRoses View Post
I've never seen a no-rec, but I did see one that was completely honest. It basically said that the girl was shy at first but once she warmed up she was great. It was refreshing to see one that was honest rather than "she is the best thing since sliced bread!".

I think that is a good example of useful input from an alum who knows the PNM well -- it might help a great candidate who leans to the quiet side avoid being overlooked.
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