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  #301  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:44 AM
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Kevin Kevin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteRose1912 View Post
Is anyone here familiar with the case of John McNeil in Georgia? I'm curious if all this attention to the Stand Your Ground laws will bring his case back to light.
Never followed it in the first place, but I'm not expecting a totally fair treatment from an editorial on salon.com. A jury voted to convict and the highest Georgia court of appeals only had one dissent from the majority which upheld the conviction.

What did that jury and court of appeals see which wasn't presented in these articles? It wouldn't be the first case of the media attempting to mislead in order to get page clicks and viewers in a racially charged story (even if the media has to fan the flames a bit to turn it into a controversy).
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  #302  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:53 AM
TonyB06 TonyB06 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteRose1912 View Post
Is anyone here familiar with the case of John McNeil in Georgia? I'm curious if all this attention to the Stand Your Ground laws will bring his case back to light.
This sounds terrible. I have to wonder how closely the Georgia statute tracks to the horrible Fla. law. There has to be something more than what's been reported here. Letters, some of them anonymous, led a DA to take this action?

Ultimately, despite its claim to the contrary, the legal process is as subject to infection by politics, race, money and other factors, as any other.
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  #303  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:40 AM
SOM SOM is offline
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I had not followed this story either. So I took a few seconds Kevin to do a rather fast search on it outside of Salon (which YVHO seems to be less than perfect source of informantion)
Based on following, maybe worth some time looking into as a parrell case to Zimmerman and Martin.
Stand Your Ground: Before Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, there was John McNeil

http://www.republicmagazine.com/news...hn-mcneil.html

Is John McNeil the Black George Zimmerman?
http://loop21.com/life/john-mcneil-g...orge-zimmerman
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  #304  
Old 04-16-2012, 10:02 AM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Originally Posted by SOM View Post
I had not followed this story either. So I took a few seconds Kevin to do a rather fast search on it outside of Salon (which YVHO seems to be less than perfect source of informantion)
Based on following, maybe worth some time looking into as a parrell case to Zimmerman and Martin.
Stand Your Ground: Before Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, there was John McNeil

http://www.republicmagazine.com/news...hn-mcneil.html

Is John McNeil the Black George Zimmerman?
http://loop21.com/life/john-mcneil-g...orge-zimmerman
You do know that Republic Magazine is not in fact New Republic Magazine, right?
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  #305  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:54 AM
SOM SOM is offline
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Originally Posted by KSig RC View Post
You do know that Republic Magazine is not in fact New Republic Magazine, right?
KSig RC: not at all too sure what to make of your posting. Not that it really matters to me.
All I was indicating was that several posters or postings perked up my interest in John McNeil's case enough to do a fast, quick, down and dirty search on it. And that was enough to place it on my list of things to follow-up on when I have some time to do so.
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  #306  
Old 04-16-2012, 01:35 PM
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Two rather interesting, well written and long articles on the back-stories and back-histories of the NRA and Gun Control:
Trayvon Martin and America's Gun Laws:
Battleground America One nation, under the gun
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

The Secret History of Guns
The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership-and regulated it. And no group has more fiercely advocated the right to bear loaded weapons in public than the Black Panthers-the true pioneers of the modern pro-gun movement. In the battle over gun rights in America, both sides have distorted history and the law, and there's no resolution in sight.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-of-guns/8608/
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  #307  
Old 04-23-2012, 08:44 AM
SOM SOM is offline
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The Real Injustice at the Heart of the Trayvon Martin Case-Did George Zimmerman Break the Law?
http://www.thenation.com/article/167...on-martin-case
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  #308  
Old 04-23-2012, 01:42 PM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Originally Posted by SOM View Post
KSig RC: not at all too sure what to make of your posting. Not that it really matters to me.
All I was indicating was that several posters or postings perked up my interest in John McNeil's case enough to do a fast, quick, down and dirty search on it. And that was enough to place it on my list of things to follow-up on when I have some time to do so.
What you posted was an abominably sourced and insanely biased "rundown" - something that was borderline intellectually dishonest. The New Republic is a fairly well-regarded magazine, while the site you posted is a bizarre tea party-oriented opinion site. I figured you thought you'd posted something from a real news source - my bad.

I was surprised to see you bump this thread today with something that literally calls the question ("Did he break the law?") instead of the most important leak in the case to date (the photo of the bloody back of Zimmerman's head).
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  #309  
Old 04-23-2012, 04:53 PM
I2K Beta Mu I2K Beta Mu is offline
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Originally Posted by SOM View Post
Your question has been covered by several reports. I would suggest reading some of stories of the past few days. IIRC Lionel did a segment or two on matter this week.
I see why it would be 2nd degree murder now. At first, I was confused on the two.
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  #310  
Old 04-24-2012, 12:13 AM
SOM SOM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC View Post
What you posted was an abominably sourced and insanely biased "rundown" - something that was borderline intellectually dishonest. The New Republic is a fairly well-regarded magazine, while the site you posted is a bizarre tea party-oriented opinion site. I figured you thought you'd posted something from a real news source - my bad.

I was surprised to see you bump this thread today with something that literally calls the question ("Did he break the law?") instead of the most important leak in the case to date (the photo of the bloody back of Zimmerman's head).
Simple: No one, no story, no article, no pundit has been able to move me from Zimmerman becoming the only pure aggressor once he made his own mind up to leave his truck. To me, everything else that happened, that occurred is the result of that one conscious decision of Zimmerman's. Or what that wonderful phase from may an old cop show "Fruit of the poisonous vine" Which in turn would make Martin the only one standing his ground IF he was, it fact and truth, doing any sort of attacking. Or simply defending himself against someone attacking him with a visible gun. We could ague this but lets all see what the circus brings to town next ;>%
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  #311  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:31 AM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Originally Posted by SOM View Post
Simple: No one, no story, no article, no pundit has been able to move me from Zimmerman becoming the only pure aggressor once he made his own mind up to leave his truck. To me, everything else that happened, that occurred is the result of that one conscious decision of Zimmerman's. Or what that wonderful phase from may an old cop show "Fruit of the poisonous vine" Which in turn would make Martin the only one standing his ground IF he was, it fact and truth, doing any sort of attacking. Or simply defending himself against someone attacking him with a visible gun. We could ague this but lets all see what the circus brings to town next ;>%
I actually agree with your sentiment, for the most part, but I'm just not sure how it aligns with Florida law, specifically with how jurors (on average) interpret those types of law.

I agree, also, that there's likely more to come ... hopefully it can be handled in a civil and positive manner. Also, I appreciate this bit of insight from you - the links are fine in and of themselves, but it's generally more interesting and useful to get an opinion based on them. Thanks, it's an interesting one.
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  #312  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:43 AM
SOM SOM is offline
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Originally Posted by KSig RC View Post
I actually agree with your sentiment, for the most part, but I'm just not sure how it aligns with Florida law, specifically with how jurors (on average) interpret those types of law.

I agree, also, that there's likely more to come ... hopefully it can be handled in a civil and positive manner. Also, I appreciate this bit of insight from you - the links are fine in and of themselves, but it's generally more interesting and useful to get an opinion based on them. Thanks, it's an interesting one.
My understanding of Stand you Ground is that once someone becomes the "aggressor", they stay the "aggressor". Even when/if they start to lose the very "fight" they started. In other words, one can not flip-flop and claim to be to aggrieved if they lose the fight they started. Or in this case, perhaps, self-defense/protecting ones own life after making a threat on another.
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  #313  
Old 04-24-2012, 11:46 AM
DrPhil DrPhil is offline
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I saw the photos of Zimmerman's "bloody head." I still call bullshit. If he truly followed Martin then it is perhaps the case that Martin thought he was running from, and eventually beating the shit out of, an aggressor (Zimmerman). I think Martin probably thought that he was defending himself. So, Zimmerman being made out to be the self-defender WITH A DAMN GUN is complete bullshit. Martin may have had every right to break his nose (if that happened) and beat his head into the ground. Perhaps Zimmerman was losing the fight and shot the gun. I would not even doubt that Zimmerman brought out the gun earlier on than he is claiming and Martin beat the shit out of him to escape the wrath of the gun.

We shall see what happens in this case. Innocent until proven guilty and all of that. I pray that there isn't a Trayvon Martin Riot if the public disagrees with the outcome of this trial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOM View Post
My understanding of Stand you Ground is that once someone becomes the "aggressor", they stay the "aggressor". Even when/if they start to lose the very "fight" they started. In other words, one can not flip-flop and claim to be to aggrieved if they lose the fight they started. Or in this case, perhaps, self-defense/protecting ones own life after making a threat on another.
Yet another reason why Stand Your Ground is complete nonsense. These laws and policies should not be based on individuals' understandings. They should not be used as an extreme version of self-defense. They should not be used for "I started this fight but this person is a better fighter than I am...oh yaay...I have a gun." It should not be used for "the police are slow as hell, let me shoot my neighbor's burglars."
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  #314  
Old 04-24-2012, 07:42 PM
SOM SOM is offline
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Here is another case involving, perhaps, the other side of the coin:
Tonight on AC360: Stand your ground law under scrutiny in domestic violence case
Editor's note: Don't miss Gary Tuchman's interview with Marissa Alexander at 8 and 10 p.m. ET tonight on AC360.
Marissa Alexander, a 31-year-old mother of three, pleaded for her freedom as an inmate in the Duval County Jail in Jacksonville, Florida.
"This is my life I'm fighting for," she said while wiping away tears. She added, "If you do everything to get on the right side of the law, and it is a law that does not apply to you, where do you go from there?"
Alexander is referring to Florida's so-called 'stand your ground' law, a law that has come under scrutiny since the killing of Trayvon Martin. Unlike the Martin case, which involved one stranger killing another, Alexander's case involved her gun and her abusive husband.
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/2...n=1&hpt=ac_bn1

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/24/justic...law/index.html

LIONEL PODCAST: Have You Heard the One About Marissa Alexander?
Explain the difference(s). Marissa Alexander faces a minimum mandatory 20 years in the hoosegow over firing a round into the ceiling of her home. Oh, I forgot to mention, her husband and two stepsons were present and claim she trained the weapon on them first. They also claim she was the aggressor. And did I mention she had a carry permit for her gun?
Is it about race? The local NAACP chapter President is in her corner and vehemently suggests that Stand Your Ground (SYG) should be implemented to acquit her. Big Ange Corey, that’s right, that Big Ange, opposes any such leniency, dismissal of charges or new trial, The jury has spoken.
So what gives? Welcome to the world of big time law, kids. A million cases, a million decisions. One law.
So what do I do now? Thank Zeus you’re not Marissa Alexander and enjoy the podcast.
http://www.podjockey.com/lionelmedia...ssa-alexander/

Marissa Alexander: A Reverse Trayvon Martin?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...ter_socialflow

Last edited by SOM; 04-25-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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  #315  
Old 04-24-2012, 08:26 PM
Old_Row Old_Row is offline
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I find it interesting that the major news outlets are not covering the story about Matthew Owens being nearly beaten to death.

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/2...on-ar-3659891/

This is big news in Alabama.
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