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-   -   Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to? (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=54435)

James 07-26-2004 10:27 PM

Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?
 
A large part of the sorority system seems predicated on the idea that even if mutually selected, the numbers issue might make a PNM not get a bid for the house she wants.

Ok fair enough. But why do we expect and pressure them to join the house she doesn't want?

That seems to be an enormous flaw in the system.

Does anyone else agree? Or disagree?

33girl 07-26-2004 10:34 PM

No one is expected to join a house she doesn't want. If she doesn't want to be in a house, she shouldn't write it on her bid card. Simple as that.

mu_agd 07-26-2004 10:35 PM

or she could decline the bid.

again, pretty simple.

AchtungBaby80 07-26-2004 10:38 PM

How do you really know you don't like a house unless you try it, though? I mean, even if you're kinda so-so about a chapter to begin with, you might end up liking it enough to initiate after the pledge period is over. Anybody else think?

honeychile 07-26-2004 10:49 PM

One way to look at it is this: haven't you ever seen a couple pairs of pants (shoes, etc), and thought, WOW! I really like this pair, but this other pair is pretty cool, too. Then you look at the fit, and the first pair just doesn't fit the way you imagined. So, you try on the other pair, and it fits.

Also, the New Member program is "trying on" the sorority - the NM can go through the entire program, but decide against initiation. We had a NM cancel literally the day before initiation, and the next year, she pledged and was initiated into another sorority - where she was quite happy. It happens.

"Number Two" isn't always the worst thing that could happen!

DeltaBetaBaby 07-26-2004 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by honeychile
One way to look at it is this: haven't you ever seen a couple pairs of pants (shoes, etc), and thought, WOW! I really like this pair, but this other pair is pretty cool, too. Then you look at the fit, and the first pair just doesn't fit the way you imagined. So, you try on the other pair, and it fits.

This is a great analogy!

There is a difference between a chapter you DO NOT WANT and a chapter that just wasn't your first choice.

CASIGKAP 07-26-2004 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltaBetaBaby
There is a difference between a chapter you DO NOT WANT and a chapter that just wasn't your first choice.
I am in complete agreement here. There is definitely a difference. I've seen gals end up in houses that were not their first choice & have later said it was the best thing that could have ever happened to them.
By the same token, I've seen gals stubbornly refuse to consider anyone other than XYZ but once they are NM's, they do not like it all & have no other options b/c they refused to even consider another house.

Peaches-n-Cream 07-26-2004 11:43 PM

If she doesn't like a sorority, she should not write it down. Most people apply to several colleges, not just one. If you don't get your first or second choice college, you don't give up on the idea of higher education. You attend another college. A PNM might not receive a bid to her first or second choice sorority, but she might receive a bid to her third or fourth choice. She has options.

Believe me, a sorority does not want someone who doesn't want to be there. That type of pledge usually drops out very quickly.

texas*princess 07-27-2004 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CASIGKAP
By the same token, I've seen gals stubbornly refuse to consider anyone other than XYZ but once they are NM's, they do not like it all & have no other options b/c they refused to even consider another house.
Like honeychile said, if the jeans don't fit, don't wear them! hehehe

In all seriousness, this definitely happens. No one expects a young woman to join a house she doesn't want to be in. Most people just want them to know that there are other options out there besides XYZ that could make her just as happy, if not more than the house she thought she wanted.

Sometimes people drop out of rush because the top tier sorority did not invite them back to the next set of parties, or because they buy into all the stereotypes they hear from other people before rush even starts.. and before they even have a chance to get to know the other chapters they already want only certain houses.

I realize it's not an ideal world, and people are not always going to be open-minded... but like Peaches-N-Cream's analogy, not everyone is going to get accepted to Harvard or Yale, but for some people, UT or some other school will be just as good and may even make them more comfortable and happy in the long run.

BabyP 07-27-2004 07:15 AM

that analogy doesnt work, I have friends that apply to UCLA and other "top schools' just to see if they can get in even though they have no intention of moving there and going to that school. And they DID get in those schools!! Even me, I got in UC Berkeley which was my first choice but no scholarship (cuz I didnt qualify because i wasnt american citizen) and rent is high in berkely, also they got sued by deaf students for bad service. I ended up going to CSUS, I got in UCD, and Stanislaus state too but CSUS is closer and more diverse (plus cheaper to live with lots of clubs in area too)

I think the bid day should a diff day than the actual acceptance so the girls dont feel presssured cuz they showed up for bid and everyone is like come on, lets see the house, etc. I think it would be good idea to have acceptance day like the day after bid day so people will have time to think and can decline in private.

33girl 07-27-2004 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabyP
I think the bid day should a diff day than the actual acceptance so the girls dont feel presssured cuz they showed up for bid and everyone is like come on, lets see the house, etc. I think it would be good idea to have acceptance day like the day after bid day so people will have time to think and can decline in private.
I have to say I don't like the thing of everybody opening their bids together in public...in my day the sororities came to everyone's door individually. And yes, maybe your face did fall when you saw it was ABC instead of XYZ but at least it was only in front of 3 sisters instead of all the rushees and sororities.

mu_agd 07-27-2004 11:40 AM

the school i went to does everything in private, which i loved. i know there were moments throughout the process where i was quite disappointed, and i'm glad that there was only me and my rho chi to see.

jharb 07-27-2004 11:48 AM

At Butler each round you find out your invites in a one-on-one setting. I know when I found out for preference night that I wasn't invited to XYZ, but rather two other chapters (one of which I felt I wouldn't have fit in at ALL with) I cried like no other. My recruitment counselor let me stay in the room with her until I felt better. When we found out who we received bids from we were in a room with just our recruitment group. If you didn't receive a bid you were notified previously not to show up and you were also made aware of the possibility of COB. Some girls just don't make it to the revealing of what chapters the Recruitment Counselors and Panhellenic Exec are from because of whatever reason and the chapters generally are made aware of this. I think this helps out a lot, because it's still public and those excited can make a big deal in a group, but also those who are disappointed aren't ridiculed.

Peaches-n-Cream 07-27-2004 12:00 PM

I think that I missed out on something by not going through formal rush as a rushee. I rushed informally. Five out of seven sororities had rush. I rushed two of them and received two bids which were delivered to my room. I must confess that I don't clearly remember how the bids were distributed after formal rush. I remember that the rho chis and the rushees went into a big room on campus, and the rho chis handed the bids out to their groups. I have no idea how private it was. I do remember that he sisters were not allowed in the area so I never actually saw it happen. I remember seeing some very happy women and some very disappointed women.

ISUKappa 07-27-2004 12:13 PM

I absolutely agree there is a big difference between "I cannot see myself in this house, ever" and "well, they weren't my first choice but they were up there, so I'll give them a try." And there are some ladies who really felt comfortable in all houses they preffed and would be equally as happy for a bid from any of them. A PNM never, ever has to accept a bid if she absolutely doesn't want to and the Recruitment Counselor needs to make it absolutely clear that if she lists the sorority anywhere on her preference card, that means she is willing to accept a bid from them.

Things were done in private at our campus, as well. Each morning of recruitment our (then) Rho Chis would meet with us each individually to go over our invite lists and make sure we were okay with who and how many we got invited back to. There was one morning I was absolutely crushed I didn't get invited back to some particular houses and my Rho Chi was the only one who knew. Same thing went with our bid cards. They were given out individually and each girl had her own moment to open and see what it was. If she felt like she wasn't able to accept the bid, she told the Rho Chi in private and then had the opportunity to leave before the rest of the Bid day activities began.

Kevin 07-27-2004 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by honeychile
One way to look at it is this: haven't you ever seen a couple pairs of pants (shoes, etc), and thought, WOW! I really like this pair, but this other pair is pretty cool, too. Then you look at the fit, and the first pair just doesn't fit the way you imagined. So, you try on the other pair, and it fits.

Right, and she's likely to get a bid when she goes after her second pair of shoes?

reverie 07-27-2004 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
Right, and she's likely to get a bid when she goes after her second pair of shoes?
Well, every year the styles are changing. Not just in clothing, but in the houses themselves. New girls are being elected to offices and you have an entire new group of active sisters from the previous recruitment.

astroAPhi 07-27-2004 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
Right, and she's likely to get a bid when she goes after her second pair of shoes?
Well, not right away, because the NPC rules require a PNM to wait a year before receiving a bid from another sorority IF they receive a bid. This is why a girl shouldn't put a sorority on her bid card if she doesn't want a bid from them.

I know a lot of people look down on ISP/suiciding, but when you're on a campus with 2-3 NPCs, I think it's a lot more likely to happen. The 2 current sororities on my campus are very different, and it's easy to figure out where you're most comfortable. I was highly discouraged to suicide even though I would have not been happy with a bid from the other organization. When I finally understood how bid matching worked, I realized how close I could have been to receiving a bid from another sorority because I was told I HAD to put both down.

mu_agd 07-27-2004 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astroAPhi
Well, not right away, because the NPC rules require a PNM to wait a year before receiving a bid from another sorority IF they receive a bid. This is why a girl shouldn't put a sorority on her bid card if she doesn't want a bid from them.

i thought it was only if she signed her bid card thens he couldn't pledge another one for a year. am i wrong?

Sister Havana 07-27-2004 01:10 PM

At IU everything is done one on one too. The Rho Chis were assigned to dorm floors, and she would come to your room to deliver your lists. I dropped out of formal midway through, but I assume your bids or "We're sorry..." envelopes were also delivered to you in your room as well.

carnation 07-27-2004 01:15 PM

Do y'all remember a few years back when a PNM told us that at her school on Bid Day, the PNMs stood in a circle holding hands and shut their eyes and the Rho Chis came around and tapped the shoulders of those who didn't receive a bid and they had to step out of the circle? Then everyone opened their eyes to see who was still in the circle and had a bid.:eek:

I almost cried for the girls without bids.

aopirose 07-27-2004 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carnation
Do y'all remember a few years back when a PNM told us that at her school on Bid Day, the PNMs stood in a circle holding hands and shut their eyes and the Rho Chis came around and tapped the shoulders of those who didn't receive a bid and they had to step out of the circle? Then everyone opened their eyes to see who was still in the circle and had a bid.:eek:

I almost cried for the girls without bids.

Yes, that was heartbreaking.

Peaches-n-Cream 07-27-2004 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mu_agd
i thought it was only if she signed her bid card thens he couldn't pledge another one for a year. am i wrong?
I think that if you receive a bid through formal rush you are bound to that sorority for a year. That's how I remember it. PenguinTrax could probably clarify this.

carnation, I don't remember that, but it is awfully unkind to do that.

jharb 07-27-2004 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
I think that if you receive a bid through formal rush you are bound to that sorority for a year. That's how I remember it. PenguinTrax could probably clarify this.

carnation, I don't remember that, but it is awfully unkind to do that.

The way it works is that you can only pledge that house for the next year. We had a girl who accepted a bid, and was a new member but for some reason didn't get initiated. She didn't want to go through formal recruitment but was able to re-pledge within the year time frame. If you accept the bid, don't go through with it you can't go through recruitment of any kind for another year.

honeychile 07-27-2004 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carnation
Do y'all remember a few years back when a PNM told us that at her school on Bid Day, the PNMs stood in a circle holding hands and shut their eyes and the Rho Chis came around and tapped the shoulders of those who didn't receive a bid and they had to step out of the circle? Then everyone opened their eyes to see who was still in the circle and had a bid.:eek:

I almost cried for the girls without bids.

[Janice] Oh. My. God!! [/Janice]

That is just plain cruel!!!!!!

When we signed our bid list, we had to give a telephone number where we would be between 4-6pm that day. If we didn't get a bid, we would get a phone call during those hours. If we didn't get a phone call, we had a bid, and were to show up at the Greek Advisors office at 7pm to receive it, then we rushed outside the Student Union to meet up with our new sisters!

HotDamnImAPhiMu 07-27-2004 01:37 PM

I'm not a huge fan of James' starting these threads questioning the operations of the NPC.

Seems to me like it's perfectly rational to be like, "Hey, I don't get why girls have to list x number of groups on their cards, even if they would only consider one of those groups." To ask honest questions and want honest answers.

That's not really what this is though. James certainly understands the concepts behind formal rush -- probably more so than any other male on here -- so why stir stuff up just to stir stuff up?

Our rush system isn't perfect, but right now, it's the best that we have to work with. James has basically pointed out a problem that isn't a problem -- as you ladies demonstrated -- so..... what's the point?

ISUKappa 07-27-2004 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mu_agd
i thought it was only if she signed her bid card thens he couldn't pledge another one for a year. am i wrong?
I used to be confused about this too. At most schools, putting a chapter down during prefs and signing the card is akin to signing a bid card--the year-wait rule still applies.

James--you're just cackling behind your computer at all the trouble you stir up, aren't you? ;)

adpiucf 07-27-2004 02:11 PM

Most likely in a sorority of medium size, you will find a niche and be comfortable. Sororities' missions are essentially the same-- to promote friendship, academic excellence and community support. You will find women eager to find a common bond, and will no doubt make friends in any sorority that you pledge, whether it was your first choice or your seventh.

That being said, it IS your choice. As I always say, Greek Life is a great experience, but getting involved with some aspect of campus life that you enjoy is what will define your college experience. If you don't get out of recruitment what you had hoped, there are scores of other organizations on campus where you can form fraternal bonds and wonderful experiences.

So, if you go through recruitment, do keep an open mind. And also remember, if you go to prefs and you fill out a bid card, you are bound to the results of that bid matching for a full school year. So why not give it a shot? What do you have to lose?

Kevin 07-27-2004 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astroAPhi
Well, not right away, because the NPC rules require a PNM to wait a year before receiving a bid from another sorority IF they receive a bid. This is why a girl shouldn't put a sorority on her bid card if she doesn't want a bid from them.

I know a lot of people look down on ISP/suiciding, but when you're on a campus with 2-3 NPCs, I think it's a lot more likely to happen. The 2 current sororities on my campus are very different, and it's easy to figure out where you're most comfortable. I was highly discouraged to suicide even though I would have not been happy with a bid from the other organization. When I finally understood how bid matching worked, I realized how close I could have been to receiving a bid from another sorority because I was told I HAD to put both down.

Wow, so what you're saying is that they'd be a Junior by the time they could try on that second pair of shoes, eh?

Yeah, I don't think the shoes analogy "fits":p

honeychile 07-27-2004 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
Wow, so what you're saying is that they'd be a Junior by the time they could try on that second pair of shoes, eh?

Yeah, I don't think the shoes analogy "fits":p

No, it means that she'd be a sophmore.

shadokat 07-27-2004 03:47 PM

To the boys of the NIC, and those who don't use our recruitment system and find it unappealing...

It's worked fairly well for the last 100 or so years. I understand that you don't get it and you may not like it, but for the love of pete, get over it. We're not asking you to join the house, and nobody's holding guns to PNMs heads saying you take this bid or you're toast. There's always a choice...if you don't like your bid, you wait a year and go again, or you don't join. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...Greek Life isn't for everyone, but most folks can find a place if they want to be Greek.

HotDamnImAPhiMu 07-27-2004 04:00 PM

[clap clap clap]

thank you.

PennyCarter 07-27-2004 04:43 PM

I have said it before, but I will say it again...I do not think that NPC has a perfect recruitment system. But I believe it works as good as possible. NPC is changing recruitment slightly now to try to improve some of its current issues (there's a thread on this somewhere). The point. I don't like everything about recruitment. But as many people have pointed out...there is a reason for the way it is. I'm personally not a big fan of quota and total, but I understand why they exist and the role they play in the NPC system (please don't post explanations, I get it! :)). Its about what is best for the most amount of people...and this system is. Even encouraging pnm's to reconsider a house that they weren't originally interested in. The system has flaws...its made up of humans...but it works.

sugar and spice 07-27-2004 05:38 PM

I agree that it's pretty annoying to have guys of the NIC coming in here and questioning our recruitment methods. I have yet to see an NPC sorority woman questioning the guys' method of recruitment.

The house I ended up joining was not my favorite at the start of the rush week (although it was my favorite on pref night). Now, having seen the Greek system from the inside out for the last two years, I'm incredibly thankful that I ended up where I did -- if I had gotten my "favorite" houses from the beginning of rush week, I would have ended up dropping. That's why I'm a big fan of mutual selection and the way the NPC process is run -- most of the time, it works.

Kevin 07-27-2004 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
To the boys of the NIC, and those who don't use our recruitment system and find it unappealing...

It's worked fairly well for the last 100 or so years. I understand that you don't get it and you may not like it, but for the love of pete, get over it. We're not asking you to join the house, and nobody's holding guns to PNMs heads saying you take this bid or you're toast. There's always a choice...if you don't like your bid, you wait a year and go again, or you don't join. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...Greek Life isn't for everyone, but most folks can find a place if they want to be Greek.

So tradition for the sake of tradition?

If it works, why mess with it?

Do you not think that it could possibly work better?

Kevin 07-27-2004 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by honeychile
No, it means that she'd be a sophmore.
A second semester sophomore. Might as well be a Junior.

Many groups simply will not take a sophomore. Very few will be interested in people that have already dropped another house. They have rooms and slots to fill and want someone that's going to have the best potential of staying around.

Whether the reason for leaving is legitimate or not, it's definitely not as simple as trying on another pair of shoes.

33girl 07-27-2004 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
A second semester sophomore. Might as well be a Junior.

Many groups simply will not take a sophomore.

This is NOT the case at many, many, many, many etc schools. No generalizations please.

Astro's example shouldn't be looked on as "how the system works" because her rho chi ucked fup. At campuses that don't allow women to suicide, there's usually a legitimate reason, and it's to protect the rushees not the sororities.

33girl 07-27-2004 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
So tradition for the sake of tradition?

If it works, why mess with it?

Do you not think that it could possibly work better?

We could all say the same about the NIC. I personally think it's ghastly that they don't even have to meet all the fraternities and half the time can't even name the ones on their campus.

sugar and spice 07-27-2004 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
So tradition for the sake of tradition?

If it works, why mess with it?

Do you not think that it could possibly work better?

How would you propose to make it better? Staying within the confines that the NPC will never operate like the NIC and doesn't want to, of course.

ktsnake, your understanding of the "waiting a year" and sophomores rushing is flawed (although many women on GC have the same problem). If a girl rushes in the fall of her freshman year, signs a bid card for ABC and then depledges, she can rush again in the fall of the next year. You are required to wait a "year" -- an academic year, not a year to the day you depledge. As for schools where they don't take juniors or sophomores -- as illustrated on GC, they are not the norm. Many of those schools are the ones with hardcore rushes where they would never take a rushee that had pledged another group anyway.

aopirose 07-27-2004 07:17 PM

Preach on 33 and S & S!


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