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-   -   Giving Incorrect Recruitment Advice (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=113036)

carnation 04-21-2010 05:52 PM

Giving Incorrect Recruitment Advice
 
Okay folks, I've been hearing a lot from several ticked-off GCers about this and I really need to say something about it. There are some GCers who are giving incorrect recruitment advice to the point that it could harm someone's recruitment if they followed it.

Please do not give advice about a system or school you know nothing about. This includes swearing up and down that you do or don't need recs at a school you know nothing about, advising someone about informal rush, or telling someone what to wear when you actually have no clue about it except for what you've read here. In other words: if your "expertise" only comes from GC, please let women from that school or system advise the PNMs. Recently, a PNM was given extremely incorrect advice and she almost went along with it. I don't blame her for being angry.

There are some women out there who are the first from their family or crowd to try to go Greek and they come here for advice, having no other outlet. Don't mess up their dreams!

KSUViolet06 04-21-2010 06:42 PM

I really don't think people who happen to give wrong advice are doing it to intentionally "squash the dreams" of PNMs...

ThetaPrincess24 04-21-2010 06:54 PM

Non-greeks and fraternity men need not give sorority recruitment advice. Non-greeks simply dont know how membership selection works in general and fraternity recruitment is totally different than sorority recruitment.

carnation 04-21-2010 06:59 PM

From where we stand now, we can look back and say, "Yeah, it would be stupid to listen only to people on a message board." That's part of my point! We were all 18 years old once and had the Internet been around like it is now, we might have fervently believed that these Greek women had all the answers. We do have a lot of answers and we can pretty much all answer general stuff!

However, school-specific things... if someone asked for advice on Ivy League recruitment, I'd defer to a woman from that area and allow her to answer because I can only answer SEC questions. But-- some GCers are giving wrong advice on schools they've only seen on a website, if even there! Advice that if followed, would pretty much tank a girl's rush.

I'm not naming names or giving examples; hopefully, the people who are doing this will recognize themselves. Please stay in your own lane!

Gusteau 04-21-2010 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThetaPrincess24 (Post 1919300)
Non-greeks and fraternity men need not give sorority recruitment advice. Non-greeks simply dont know how membership selection works in general and fraternity recruitment is totally different than sorority recruitment.

Yet sorority women will not cease to give advice on fraternity recruitment (from both sides) here.

Of course people should be mindful of trying to give correct, informed advice, but those seeking advice should acknowledge that any person on a public internet forum may not have informed answers though they pretend to.

(This is not directed at you ThetaPrincess24, or anyone in particular)

KSUViolet06 04-21-2010 07:04 PM

But really though, is it all that hurtful if PNM asks if she needs recs at say, Ole Miss, and a GCer who didn't go there says "YES. You need them?"

I think some things are just common knowledge.

I mean, she might not be able to answer "what do I wear?" but I don't think anyone here would dispute that at X or Y school, you're going to need recs.


33girl 04-21-2010 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnation (Post 1919301)
I'm not naming names or giving examples; hopefully, the people who are doing this will recognize themselves. Please stay in your own lane!

They won't, so please do. Not via PM, on the board. I'd certainly like to know if I tanked someone's rush (her personality, appearance, activities and ability to double check advice on her own not being a factor at all of course).

I would never say "guys shouldn't answer rush questions" as I just saw Gusteau give GREAT rush advice about his alma mater today. I'm sure he knows more about GMU rush than a girl who's from another school in the same athletic conference, or same state, etc etc.

Sorry, but I'm going to keep saying "if you go through rush at Bama, you need recs." If you want to delete that post, knock yourself out, but I don't know what it proves.

Gusteau 04-21-2010 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1919308)
I would never say "guys shouldn't answer rush questions" as I just saw Gusteau give GREAT rush advice about his alma mater today. I'm sure he knows more about GMU rush than a girl who's from another school in the same athletic conference, or same state, etc etc.

1. Thanks :cool:

2. There are plenty of sorority women who give great fraternity recruitment advice as well, and I certainly wouldn't ask them to stop. I recall you advising a potential to never wear jorts, EVER. I mean, that's pretty much golden. I think the key is to not overestimate your own knowledge.

thetygerlily 04-21-2010 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 1919297)
This is why I think it's super important for PNMs to get to KNOW someone in REAL life who is familiar with the system.

GC is a great resource but it should not be your primary source of recruitment info. It's also not the "gospel" concerning recruitment at your school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnation (Post 1919301)
From where we stand now, we can look back and say, "Yeah, it would be stupid to listen only to people on a message board." That's part of my point! We were all 18 years old once and had the Internet been around like it is now, we might have fervently believed that these Greek women had all the answers. We do have a lot of answers and we can pretty much all answer general stuff!

One comment on this one... I agree, in principle. However, not all parts of the country (or world :)) are filled with Greeks. I was concidentally talking about this offline with someone else today- my parents didn't go to college, I was the first in the extended family to go to a 4 year school, most teachers in my area went to a college without a Greek system, it's just not that big here, etc. I honestly don't know what I would've done had I needed recs, other than contact local Panhellenic association (although I didn't know that even existed at the time). So for most cases we see, yes- GC should be considered a supplemental source rather than the primary. But that isn't possible in every case.

For the OT, though, sorry to hear someone was given poor advice. That's exactly why I generally refrain from giving specific recruitment advice. Rarely will venture into generic common sense stuff, but not much. I trust others on here to have much better insights than I do in that department!

annabella 04-21-2010 08:24 PM

I can see (and possibly think of an example) where this would be a problem.

I think it's one thing to say "I don't go there, but anyone will tell you to get recs at Bama," and then provide the link (in this case, to the "you need recs here," sticky or other post where someone from that schoo answered or alluded to the question. Or to specify that you have been through rush there as a PNM, and the girls were wearing such and such on skit day, but that you don't know about the other side of the process yet.

It's another to.... editorialize, and use your friend's aunt's rush at a neighboring school 25 years ago as rationale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gusteau (Post 1919315)
I mean, that's pretty much golden. I think the key is to not overestimate your own knowledge.

Yup.

If you genuinely are familiar with a school, I say go for it. If you are only vaguely familiar, it may be more appropriate to PM the person asking questions and suggest contacts and sources. Otherwise, inaccurate advice is just there, in all posterity, for any future PNM searching their schools info.

FSUZeta 04-21-2010 09:02 PM

i think this is a great idea. general advice, "yes, you need recs. at bama", "it's best not to put all your eggs in one basket","take a shower and brush your teeth before recruitment each day", is one thing.....but i am not going to give someone rushing at ohio university advice, because i have no idea about recruitment at that school, and i would hate to give misinformation,no matter how sincerely i was trying to help the pnm.

carnation 04-21-2010 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gusteau (Post 1919315)
There are plenty of sorority women who give great fraternity recruitment advice as well, and I certainly wouldn't ask them to stop. I recall you advising a potential to never wear jorts, EVER. I mean, that's pretty much golden. I think the key is to not overestimate your own knowledge.

This.


And what FSUZeta said.

honeychile 04-21-2010 11:18 PM

I can't possibly be the only person who gets tons of PMs, asking for a rec to a specific school. If it's not in my region, I always explain that the weight of a local rec would be much better than mine, then steer her to someone in that state or school. Especially if it's an SEC or other drama-filled Recruitment school!

I can't imagine which one thread is being referenced, but I'd be willing to bet it's an amalgamation of several people/several threads. (Am I right? Do I win??)

annabella 04-22-2010 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honeychile (Post 1919406)
I can't imagine which one thread is being referenced, but I'd be willing to bet it's an amalgamation of several people/several threads. (Am I right? Do I win??)

I'm thinking this + mostly preemptive. I wouldn't have occurred to me that someone's recruitment could be "ruined," because of advice here (I mean, if they only have the advice of this board and can't determine the level of validity, they were probably screwed to begin with). But I could see it happening sometime down the road, hence the warning?

AnchorAlumna 04-22-2010 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThetaDancer (Post 1919483)
I would have agreed, except for the way the OP was worded. The OP had a passive-agressive accusatory tone that I think detracts from the legitimacy of what she was trying to say. It'd be one thing if it were like "hey, don't give bad advice," but instead it's like "some of you (who won't be identified) mess up dreams by giving (unidentified) wretched advice." It also used the "a lot of (unidentified) people back me up!" rationale that drives me nuts on GC.

And it was self-nominated for a sticky, too??? FTW. This is a gem.

Did any of you noticed that the OP is a MODERATOR? And a revered one, too, having been around longer than most of you - longer on GC, and longer on earth.

As a moderator, she's seeing and hearing stuff we don't know about. If Carnation thinks a sticky is necessary, it's OK by me.

I have seen incorrect or off-the-mark info handed out on many threads by many people. Not just 1 thread and not by just 1 or 2 or 4 posters. All she's saying is "think before you post." Good advice for anybody, anywhere, of any age.

tld221 04-22-2010 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agzg (Post 1919484)
So, what you're saying is that unless we went to an SEC, Big XII, Ivy, or University of California, we should just stay out of the Sorority Recruitmet forum alltogether?

If some girl is only following advice from GC without checking first with her campus panhellenic I'm not sure I care if she got a bid or not.

Oh come on - you know that's not the takeaway from this thread.

Everyone is free to give GENERAL advice that is beneficial regardless. HOWEVER we all know that these schools (plus others outside ones you listed) have their specific intricacies that could make or break it for PNMs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SydneyK (Post 1919487)
This thread reminds me of why I like NPHC's way of dealing with recruitment questions.

...I didn't realize PNMs (and their fragile dreams) had so much influence here.

Seriously. It wouldn't hurt for some of you to not jump all over Patty PNM everytime she posts a "OMGZ i'm planning to rush as State U, what should i wear, who should i pledge, what should i doooooooooo i'm a freshnaannnnnnn" thread.

Refer to the siggy. We tell PNMs/aspirants to not put all their eggs in one basket, yet we do the most in trying to give the most advice to just any ol' body. No, it doesn't make us bitches for simply replying "refer to your campus' website or your school's recruitment office for more information" every once in a while, especially when its CLEAR the OP hasnt done their part (especially when we don't even ask "have you checked with your campus/greek family members/older siblings?").

aopirose 04-22-2010 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senusret I (Post 1919481)
I declare before God that you people are crazy.

:p

DrPhil 04-22-2010 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tld221 (Post 1919531)
Seriously. It wouldn't hurt for some of you to not jump all over Patty PNM everytime she posts a "OMGZ i'm planning to rush as State U, what should i wear, who should i pledge, what should i doooooooooo i'm a freshnaannnnnnn" thread.

Refer to the siggy. We tell PNMs/aspirants to not put all their eggs in one basket, yet we do the most in trying to give the most advice to just any ol' body. No, it doesn't make us bitches for simply replying "refer to your campus' website or your school's recruitment office for more information" every once in a while, especially when its CLEAR the OP hasnt done their part (especially when we don't even ask "have you checked with your campus/greek family members/older siblings?").

U R AWE SOME.

FSUZeta 04-22-2010 07:29 PM

i'll give you an example. in the "ready2011" thread, the op asks the general question,"if her religion will impact her ability to join or her membership experience." she is a 7th day adventist and keeps the sabbath, which for them is sundown friday to sundown saturday. i pointed out that many times initiation ceremonies are held either friday nights or saturdays. when she mentioned that she was interested in join a NPHC group, i asked her to disregard my statement, as it pertained to NPC. I have no experience in NPHC matters, and had she specified from the get-go that she was looking into NPHC organizations, i would not have responded to the thread.

violetpretty 04-22-2010 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSUZeta (Post 1919709)
i'll give you an example. in the "ready2011" thread, the op asks the general question,"if her religion will impact her ability to join or her membership experience." she is a 7th day adventist and keeps the sabbath, which for them is sundown friday to sundown saturday. i pointed out that many times initiation ceremonies are held either friday nights or saturdays. when she mentioned that she was interested in join a NPHC group, i asked her to disregard my statement, as it pertained to NPC. I have no experience in NPHC matters, and had she specified from the get-go that she was looking into NPHC organizations, i would not have responded to the thread.

And even that is a chapter-to chapter thing. My chapter always does Initiation on Sunday mornings/afternoons and I know some other chapters at UMD initiate on weeknights.

33girl 04-22-2010 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna (Post 1919515)
I have seen incorrect or off-the-mark info handed out on many threads by many people. Not just 1 thread and not by just 1 or 2 or 4 posters.

Well, did you call them out, or did you just sit there and say "tch, tch, tch" and let the PNM have the wrong advice? If you did the latter, you're just as guilty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tld221 (Post 1919531)
(especially when we don't even ask "have you checked with your campus/greek family members/older siblings?").

There have been some family members of rushees on here who straight up admitted they didn't know jack because 1) they rushed the year everyone was wearing "Nixon Now" buttons 2) they went to Teeny Noncompetitive School and little sister/brother is going to Big Scary School. Not to mention the helicopters. So sometimes the family isn't the best place to go.

DrPhil 04-22-2010 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSUZeta (Post 1919709)
i'll give you an example. in the "ready2011" thread, the op asks the general question,"if her religion will impact her ability to join or her membership experience." she is a 7th day adventist and keeps the sabbath, which for them is sundown friday to sundown saturday. i pointed out that many times initiation ceremonies are held either friday nights or saturdays. when she mentioned that she was interested in join a NPHC group, i asked her to disregard my statement, as it pertained to NPC. I have no experience in NPHC matters, and had she specified from the get-go that she was looking into NPHC organizations, i would not have responded to the thread.

That doesn't matter. We don't like giving advice to any aspirants because the informal stuff often varies by chapter so people need to get off the damn message boards and research and interact with others. And the formal stuff is NOT meant to be discussed on a message board. Either way, any NPHC aspirant who holds their breath for a GC response and takes it that seriously is a complete idiot who will probably never become a member.

As I always say, I come here to be entertained and not informed. I may choose to give an aspirant a serious helpful response one day and tell them something completely off-base just for shits and giggles the next day. The smart aspirants won't take ANY of it seriously.

AOII Angel 04-22-2010 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSUZeta (Post 1919709)
i'll give you an example. in the "ready2011" thread, the op asks the general question,"if her religion will impact her ability to join or her membership experience." she is a 7th day adventist and keeps the sabbath, which for them is sundown friday to sundown saturday. i pointed out that many times initiation ceremonies are held either friday nights or saturdays. when she mentioned that she was interested in join a NPHC group, i asked her to disregard my statement, as it pertained to NPC. I have no experience in NPHC matters, and had she specified from the get-go that she was looking into NPHC organizations, i would not have responded to the thread.

And the fault was hers for being so vague about what she was talking about. If she came out immediately and said NPHC, we all would have kept our mouths shut. I personally don't care in that instance if she was confused.

FSUZeta 04-23-2010 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel (Post 1920304)
Stop giving incorrect Judaism advice!

I thought Bar Mitzvah actually, I've had cake at those and Bat Mitzvas, never cake at a Bris.

ditto.

ellebud 04-23-2010 06:21 PM

First of all, that is a Bar Mitzvah (or Bat Mitzvah) cake. Generally, not that large (don't go there) because French pastry is de rigeur, with the make your own hot fudge sundae bar for the B'nai Mitzvot. And a good pig in the blanket (you should excuse the expression) is always welcomed.

Food for a bris (if kosher) can be the fish platter OR meat platter but can range up to, and including, Wolfgang Puck from Spago catering everything including Jewish pizza and sashimi cones. But, dessert almost always includes rugelach. (Go look that one up! not the salad green) We do not discriminate: a good French pastry is always welcomed.

The new gift of choice is, I believe, a watch. We went to one Bar Mitzvah where the boy got 5, yes 5 Rolexes. But most of the time a Tag will do.......

So, while I do know my Bar/Bat/Bris Mitzvahs (mitzvah means a good deed) food selections if I have made any mistakes in advice for recruitment: mea culpa.

CougarGrad 04-23-2010 06:53 PM

Ellebud, you have me intrigued- "Jewish" pizza? I get the feeling you mean something besides kosher.

ellebud 04-23-2010 07:26 PM

Jewish pizza: (created by Wolfgang Puck) pizza dough pre baked. His isn't too crispy nor too chewy. Topped by: creme fresh, then Nova lox covering the entire pizza. A few dabs of red caviar and a few bits of chive snipped on top. Heaven.

ree-Xi 04-23-2010 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellebud (Post 1920376)
Jewish pizza: (created by Wolfgang Puck) pizza dough pre baked. His isn't too crispy nor too chewy. Topped by: creme fresh, then Nova lox covering the entire pizza. A few dabs of red caviar and a few bits of chive snipped on top. Heaven.

Forgive my unsophisticated palate, but I gag at caviar. Had it at 15 at a theater opening and again at 16, and I just....ugh...

ellebud 04-23-2010 07:43 PM

No prob. Hold the caviar!

ellebud 04-23-2010 10:09 PM

I'll make reservations...:)

honeychile 04-24-2010 12:23 AM

The most awesome Bar Mitzvah (actually, B'nai Mitzvah) I've ever heard of was one my friend, Cheryl & her family, attended - three days long, including a night at PNC Park. You can read about it here and here, but the amazing photos are sadly no longer there. Dot Pollon, the boys' mother, contacted a professional party planner, and this part was in the Post-Gazette:

"Sometimes, large parties held after a bar or bat mitzvah can generate major gifts to local charities.

That happened last month when Ms. Chirigos staged a "Field of Dreams" party at PNC Park for three Sewickley brothers -- Aaron, Joshua and Benjamin Pollon. Missy Elliott, backed up by seven hip-hop dancers, sang and invited teenagers up on stage, then later posed for pictures with guests and gave autographs.

Aaron and Joshua Pollon, who are twins, gave all their bar mitzvah money, which their parents matched, to the Pirates Charities for Children and Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh. Each charity received a check for $15,000 during a presentation on the baseball field.

The twins made the donations because their brother, Benjamin, was born with a disfiguring skin disease and melanoma and later diagnosed with autism.

Aaron and Joshua Pollon wanted to thank the doctors, nurses and therapists who supported Benjamin through 13 years of surgery, Ms. Chirigos said.

The Pollons' party featured fireworks, and because the evening was cold, guests received warm blankets, seat cushions and hats.

"You've got to make people comfortable," Ms. Chirigos said." The paper didn't go into the amazing dinners and lunches held at each venue. Sheetcake's cake was probably there!

Cheryl & I are still close sisters from school, and she's good friends with Dot Pollon from being little sisters together.

ellebud 04-24-2010 01:18 PM

Totally back on subject: I read the thread about clothing at Ole Miss. It is fascinating how in different parts of the country clothing requirements differ. Here: white after Labor Day? No problem. Velvet after Valentine's Day? Why not? If ii is cold and the blue velvet blazer works....throw it on. Skirt lengths? As long as you've got good legs and the basics are covered...go for it. And its all good.

As for Church clothes? I began looking at the people who go to Church at Good Shepard (Catholic) and Bel Air Pres (where Ronald and Nancy Reagan went). Yes, there are some people who are "dressed". But most: jeans, shorts, t shirts, flipflops.

Not saying that we are "right" but that's how we roll! I will NEVER hazard a guess (except with good taste...like wear a bit of makeup) on what is appropriate in other places...except New York as well as Los Angeles. That I've got covered.

als463 04-24-2010 10:28 PM

After reading through this thread (and the QFP thread) I hope this doesn't apply to something I typed. If so, I would really want to know because I don't want to be giving out incorrect recruitment advice.

I've tried to wish people in the NPHC threads good luck and I've said that they should speak to other NPHC members and I've tried not to dispense too much advice about anything regarding a school that I don't really know much about. If I have done this, I hope Carnation lets me know. I'd hate to think that I am hurting someone's recruitment experience.

The girls who come on here and act like they are too good for "certain" chapters going through recruitment-they, on the other hand, don't matter too much to me. I could care less how they do. If you're only going through rush/ recruitment to be able to party with the best fraternities or be at the best socials and you could not really care about sisterhood-then you don't deserve to join, anyway.

DrPhil 04-25-2010 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by als463 (Post 1920796)
I've tried to wish people in the NPHC threads good luck and I've said that they should speak to other NPHC members and I've tried not to dispense too much advice about anything regarding a school that I don't really know much about. If I have done this, I hope Carnation lets me know. I'd hate to think that I am hurting someone's recruitment experience.

Try to follow the lead of the NPHCers. If we're telling the OP to fuck off, don't tell the person good luck.

als463 04-25-2010 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1920879)
Try to follow the lead of the NPHCers. If we're telling the OP to fuck off, don't tell the person good luck.

I just try to be positive. I really do wish people good luck in their search for a "home" regarding Greek life. I will listen to what you said, though. If they are acting rude or hateful towards the members of the NPHC, I won't tell them good luck.

I just wish people would use this as a "supplemental" source and not the end-all-be-all because they assume that for every mean comment they get from GCers, that is an indication of how all Greeks will treat them. In fact, I have already told people that if they are going to act like that, I hope they don't join my sorority but, that doesn't mean that all of my sisters or sisters from other GLOs will feel the same. Don't base your entire opinion of what a certain GLO is all about by the posts of a few people. That is just dumb.

als463 04-25-2010 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1920890)
Good.

For the record, OPs can get a fuck off even when they aren't being rude or hateful. Just observe.

And lay off with the Ebay postings. ;)

Hey now...I posted that Ebay thing because it happened to show up when I was trying to find some Phi Mu stuff. I was just trying to be helpful because I figured the Omegas would like that stuff they were selling...:)

I still think we could be a little bit nicer to some of the people who come on here looking for advice (provided they don't act like complete morons who put down GLOs) so, I would have to understand why people were telling the person to go somewhere else-that's all. I'll keep my ideas to myself, if they seemed the least bit disrespectful.

Just my opinion but, I think that sometimes we could be a little nicer to eachother on this site too. That's just my $.02 and maybe means little to some people. I'm not pointing fingers or calling anyone out, I'm just saying that even people were being mean to one another in this thread. That's all.

DrPhil 04-25-2010 06:01 PM

None of that matters. If we are essentially telling them to fuck off. Back away from the keyboard.

NextYearSC 01-28-2013 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 1919297)
This is why I think it's super important for PNMs to get to KNOW someone in REAL life who is familiar with the system.

GC is a great resource but it should not be your primary source of recruitment info. It's also not the "gospel" concerning recruitment at your school.

I haven't read this entire board, so don't know if this point was brought up, but I'm the first in my family to want to go Greek and know only two adults who I am not close to who were even involved in Greek life. I just wanted to bring up that some people may not have the option to talk to people they know in real life regarding recruitment, although I am trying to work on that now.

DubaiSis 01-28-2013 05:02 PM

That's fair and why we are glad to help. Just understand that while I don't think anyone here tries to sabotage anyone's outcome, do understand that some people jump in where they don't belong. If you get an answer here to a question, wait to see if there are a variety of answers. And anything that says you don't need excellent grades, recs are unimportant or you can dress however you want should be given at least a double take. There are schools were these answers may be true, but I'd make damn sure your school is one of them before trusting it. Don't latch on to the easy answer among 50 that disagree.

And PM is your friend. If you find someone from your school, feel free to send them private messages. You can avoid some of the fire storm that way.

UGAgirl93 01-28-2013 07:36 PM

NextYearSC makes a good point. Another thing is even if you have a family member familiar with the system, they might not be familiar with the way things work at your school. For example, when I decided I wanted to rush, the only greek person in my family went greek at a very small, private school with no football team, 6 sororities and only a small number of girls going through recruitment. Said family member told me I didn't need to get my own recs because at their school the sororities really did get a rec for every girl rushing witout issue. It wasn't until late June that I knew I would need to get my own for the 17 chapters at my SEC school. I think it's good (and sometimes vital) for the PNM to do their own research specific to their school, even if they have someone greek helping them out. If you're going to rush, do your own homework. If you copy someone else's it might not always be right.

That being said the information they find on their own would need to be accurate. It's kind of a big circle if you think about it.


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