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-   -   Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to? (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=54435)

James 08-01-2004 05:45 PM

HotdamnIamaphimu, I guess thats fair, assuming I am nit picking just to nit pick.

And I do have a fair understanding of the process of formal rush.

However, these kinds of topics, and the more intellegent responses in them, give me a better idea of the concepts behind formal rush, what the abstract goals are, the application, the variation among campuses, as well as how effective the results.

So what we do is examine the results in the context of the goals of formal rush and then look at how the process of rush supports that.

Navane's response was among the most helpful because thats the way I meant the question. Plus, her taking the tact of examining girl-culture and some of the thought processes going on was insightful.


Quote:

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
I'm not a huge fan of James' starting these threads questioning the operations of the NPC.

Seems to me like it's perfectly rational to be like, "Hey, I don't get why girls have to list x number of groups on their cards, even if they would only consider one of those groups." To ask honest questions and want honest answers.

That's not really what this is though. James certainly understands the concepts behind formal rush -- probably more so than any other male on here -- so why stir stuff up just to stir stuff up?

Our rush system isn't perfect, but right now, it's the best that we have to work with. James has basically pointed out a problem that isn't a problem -- as you ladies demonstrated -- so..... what's the point?


James 08-01-2004 08:24 PM

So, to sum up the viewpoints given:

Women are not forced to list houses that they don't want to join.

However, some believe that there is peer pressure not to suicide and maybe list groups that are less desired in order give those houses a chance. Which is also consistent with the philosophy of Formal Rush, trying to create population parity among the houses.

It seems to be the opinion of the majority, that all else being equal, any reasonably stable girl should be able to have a good experience in even the less popuar houses. That assumes that house doesn't have any extraordinary problems.

There is also a strong viewpoint that the houses and the rho chi's might know better where someone should be placed than the actual PNM. In this case, its important that the PNM be "guided" to put down multiple houses, and "encouraged" to accept a bid they might not be dying for, to give that house a chance. Because after all, they can quit and rush again.

A vocal minority believes that the average PNM is perfectly capable of making an informed choice. Therefore pressure is not a good or maybe even an ethical thing.

I think that sums up most of the debate.

James 08-01-2004 08:31 PM

Ok, so based on the debate so far, I have another question.

Is there is a pool of desirable PNM's that don't end up placed because they would rather not be Greek than be Greek in an organization that they had made up their minds they didn't want to join?

I am thinking mostly about girls that either dropped out of rush when cut heavily in the first rounds, or didn't like the chapters they were given to Preference and then dropped.

Those girls would be lost to the system forever because they didn't want what they didn't want. And the less desirable chapters didn't get them either, so thats where the system breaks down for them also.

HotDamnImAPhiMu 08-01-2004 09:06 PM

how does that question promote more, different debate?

we've established that, yes, there are women who ONLY want one chapter, either because they believe rightly they wouldn't fit in with any other chapter, or because they're too spoiled to look beyond first appearances,

and that the only way to change this is to promote the concept of PNMs looking past first appearances, and the concept of "giving houses a chance,"

and that some panhellenic members believe this is unethical and a bad idea, because it is likely to put a PNM somewhere she won't be happy and won't fit in, and every PNM is capable of making her own informed decision (for you Kelly ;) )

and some panhellenic members believe this is a reasonable way of encouraging PNMs to take a look at houses they are a great match for.

shadokat 08-02-2004 09:57 AM

Most girls who get cut heavily and decide to drop up here in the north will rarely bother to even go Greek.

Quote:

Originally posted by James
Ok, so based on the debate so far, I have another question.

Is there is a pool of desirable PNM's that don't end up placed because they would rather not be Greek than be Greek in an organization that they had made up their minds they didn't want to join?

I am thinking mostly about girls that either dropped out of rush when cut heavily in the first rounds, or didn't like the chapters they were given to Preference and then dropped.

Those girls would be lost to the system forever because they didn't want what they didn't want. And the less desirable chapters didn't get them either, so thats where the system breaks down for them also.


33girl 08-02-2004 10:04 AM

As far as telling women not to suicide, sometimes that's the way the computer program is written - if they put only one group down, it kicks them out of the system. I have no experience with these, but I would think that if they really only want one group, they could put down 2 others that they don't have a snowball's chance of getting bid to (i.e. that cut them after the first round).

I would never, ever, EVER want a woman to put a house on her bid card that she didn't like after a week of rush. "Giving it a chance" applies to going to a party, not signing a bid. But sometimes rho chis get too overzealous - it's a human flaw and they are human, not perfect.

If a woman was closed-minded enough that she'd drop out of rush when her options didn't turn out to be what her ego thought they would - i.e. the "popular" houses - that doesn't make her "desirable" in my eyes. Those are the women the system needs to weed out.

texas*princess 08-02-2004 10:08 AM

Ok, so based on the debate so far, I have another question.

Is there is a pool of desirable PNM's that don't end up placed because they would rather not be Greek than be Greek in an organization that they had made up their minds they didn't want to join?


Yes, sometimes at some schools there are. This is probably a stretch, but at smaller, less competitive schools, I think the chances of someone dropping out of rush are probably less than those of Sally PNM who is going thru rush with a huge and/or competitive greek system.


Those girls would be lost to the system forever because they didn't want what they didn't want. And the less desirable chapters didn't get them either, so thats where the system breaks down for them also.


Yes, sometimes it doesn't work out for the pnm's who decide they would rather drop than join the houses they didn't get cut from, and yes the chapters might have missed out on some members, but would those "less desirable" chapters want those pnms who thought they were too good for their house? I would hope not. Thankfully NPC allows chapters to COB/COR after formal recruitment is over for chapters who did not meet quota or have not reached total. During that time, those chapters can find members who want to be there.

I think you're forgetting that it isn't always about formal recruitment.

I also think this is just another way of putting your original question.

DeltaBetaBaby 08-02-2004 11:31 AM

James, I think your question here depends on your definition of "desireable". My undergrad chapter did not always make quota during FR when I was there (we were one of those chapters that was much stronger in COB). Anyway, every year we got one or two of those girls that were "desireable"...gorgeous, popular, dating an XYZ, whatever...the kind who were invited back to every chapter, and picked ours.

Nine times out of ten, these girls ended up being the worst members over time.

ISUKappa 08-02-2004 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltaBetaBaby
Nine times out of ten, these girls ended up being the worst members over time.
Thank you. Often (but not always) those girls who feel they are "too good" for some of the smaller chapters or are upset because they were dropped from THE chapter to be in are not the kind of members those (or really any) chapters want anyway. Most likely, they are the ones who are only in it for the stereotype and will not be meaningful, contributing members. There will always be some of those in every chapter, though.

I really think, barring very unusual circumstances during recruitment, that if a PNM has the characteristics that most chapters look for (grades, true interest, good conversation with the members) and is honest with herself (she isn't swayed by rumours or the glitz of formal recruitment) that she has a very good chance of finding a house of which she will enjoy and be a positive member. But she has to make that decision and she has to make that effort.

Yes, there are always some women who would make wonderful members of any GLO that get lost in the cracks during formal recruitment or for some reason decide that maybe it just isn't for her at that time. I don't think that's any reflection on the recruitment process, that's just the way the world works. That's also why I think it's a wonderful thing that Alumnae Initiation is starting to get more recognition. Now we can get active and contributing members who are seeking us and want to be a part of our organizations. We as GLOs stress that membership is for life and for some, that membership just starts a little later than others.

Measi 08-02-2004 01:51 PM

ISUKappa, I think you're completely correct in that some women just start membership later.

As a freshman in college, while I wanted to be a member of a GLO (and specifically of one of the NPC orgs), I knew that I was a bit too uncomfortable in my own skin and felt too out of place to pursue membership. I was battling the culture shock of coming from Montana to Massachusetts at the time.

As an alumna who really came into her own about two or three years after college, I now realize that even though I had the desire, I have MUCH more to give a chapter now... as an adult... than I did as an undergrad.

I'm happy many organizations are providing alumni initiation these days. Life membership should embrace those who are celebrating and coming into their own during all stages of life. It only can make an organization stronger to have women (or men) of all ages involved.

~ Mel.

HotDamnImAPhiMu 08-02-2004 02:11 PM

Ha. To be honest, Mel, I'm probably a better Phi Mu now than I was when I joined. But then I like to think I'm a better *person* now -- a teensy bit more mature :-) more finanicially responsible, more inclusive, etc.

I'm so glad AI will let groups like mine pick up great women like you. Otherwise.... I think we'd both miss out.

carnation 07-08-2019 09:59 PM

I was re-reading this and thought there were some good discussions in it.

33girl 07-09-2019 09:55 AM

Was this thread pre-RFM? Because if so it may have been what sent NPC hurtling towards it. :D

carnation 07-09-2019 09:58 AM

Not all schools began to use it the same year.

The parts I like discuss what a PNM should do if she's left with choices she wasn't planning on.


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