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-   -   Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to? (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=54435)

Kevin 07-27-2004 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
We could all say the same about the NIC. I personally think it's ghastly that they don't even have to meet all the fraternities and half the time can't even name the ones on their campus.
The cream rises to the top. Those who do not compete fail.

It's the free market at its finest.

Kevin 07-27-2004 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sugar and spice

Many of those schools are the ones with hardcore rushes where they would never take a rushee that had pledged another group anyway.

And that's my point.

Someone said (don't want to go look to see who) that it's like trying on shoes. If you don't like one pair, go try another one.

Unfortunately, in many cases, with the sorority system, it's like having a salesman come up to you, shove some shoes in your face and say "Here they are... do you want shoes or not?".

But I agree, systems vary. People vary. Situations vary.

Oftentimes though, the system is very unfair to the individual.

Kevin 07-27-2004 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
This is NOT the case at many, many, many, many etc schools. No generalizations please.

Astro's example shouldn't be looked on as "how the system works" because her rho chi ucked fup. At campuses that don't allow women to suicide, there's usually a legitimate reason, and it's to protect the rushees not the sororities.

If I wanted to deal with generalizations, I would not have said "many".

sugar and spice 07-27-2004 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
The cream rises to the top. Those who do not compete fail.

It's the free market at its finest.

You're equating "marketable" with "good."

Often, in both the NIC and the NPC, the smallest groups are the ones that do the best job of staying true to the goals of their founders and their headquarters. Because they aren't as "fun," their numbers are lower and, under the NIC system, they are shut down.

Popular appeal is not the be-all/end-all of what we want in our chapters in the Greek system. Different groups appeal to different people -- some people want a GLO that's focused on academics, some want brother/sisterhood, others want partying, some want sports. Some want a smaller chapter, some want a large one, some want one in between.

Just because a group is large doesn't mean that it's a good chapter, nor does the fact that it might be small mean that it's a bad one.

Next argument?

sugar and spice 07-27-2004 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake


Oftentimes though, the system is very unfair to the individual.

You can say the same of the fraternity system. Or of the system that the NPHC utilizes. There is no recruitment system that will work one hundred percent of the time for all the rushees and all the chapters. We all choose what we feel is the best compromise.

astroAPhi 07-27-2004 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
This is NOT the case at many, many, many, many etc schools. No generalizations please.

Astro's example shouldn't be looked on as "how the system works" because her rho chi ucked fup. At campuses that don't allow women to suicide, there's usually a legitimate reason, and it's to protect the rushees not the sororities.

I'm with 33girl. Sorry that I may not have been clear. I thought I stated that there were ONLY 2 sororities and in that case, suiciding shouldn't be seen as so horrible. They didn't even tell us it was an option... it was just DON'T DO IT. I understand why it is there to protect the rushees. If I had been on a bigger campus, I'm sure I would have found 2 or 3 places that I could have been happy, even if one stood out above the rest.
In that case I wouldn't have wanted to suicide.

And how is a girl going to be a second semester sophomore? That would only be on a campus where they have deferred Recruitment. OMG they might as well not pledge any of those freshmen because they're 2nd semester freshmen and might as well be sophomores.

Quote:

The cream rises to the top. Those who do not compete fail.
How is this the best system? How are you supposed to pick one group out of many the first night, and know that you're meant to be there? Because let's face it, if you go Rush party-hopping, with the way it's set up in NIC, you're not going to get a bid because the brothers aren't going to get to know you well enough, or you're going to come off as uninterested or desperate.

The NIC system works for you guys. The NPC system works for us. Guys want a "survival of the fittest" type thing, and girls want everyone to get a fair chance. That right there is the difference between men and women. We're not going to change because some guy told us our way is dumb, and you're not going to change because we don't think it's fair.

DeltaBetaBaby 07-27-2004 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
And that's my point.

Someone said (don't want to go look to see who) that it's like trying on shoes. If you don't like one pair, go try another one.

Unfortunately, in many cases, with the sorority system, it's like having a salesman come up to you, shove some shoes in your face and say "Here they are... do you want shoes or not?".

But I agree, systems vary. People vary. Situations vary.

Oftentimes though, the system is very unfair to the individual.

I think you are mis-interpreting the original point, here. She is not saying go through FR, and if it doesn't work out, go the following year. She is talking about really considering all your options the first time you go through.

Let's say your campus has five houses. After the first round, you LOVE AAA, kinda like BBB and CCC, and don't really feel EEE or FFF. You get your invites, and AAA has not invited you back. Well, maybe BBB or CCC is that second pair of shoes, and you should give them a shot to impress in the subsequent rounds.

bluefish81 07-27-2004 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ISUKappa
I absolutely agree there is a big difference between "I cannot see myself in this house, ever" and "well, they weren't my first choice but they were up there, so I'll give them a try." And there are some ladies who really felt comfortable in all houses they preffed and would be equally as happy for a bid from any of them. A PNM never, ever has to accept a bid if she absolutely doesn't want to and the Recruitment Counselor needs to make it absolutely clear that if she lists the sorority anywhere on her preference card, that means she is willing to accept a bid from them.

Things were done in private at our campus, as well. Each morning of recruitment our (then) Rho Chis would meet with us each individually to go over our invite lists and make sure we were okay with who and how many we got invited back to. There was one morning I was absolutely crushed I didn't get invited back to some particular houses and my Rho Chi was the only one who knew. Same thing went with our bid cards. They were given out individually and each girl had her own moment to open and see what it was. If she felt like she wasn't able to accept the bid, she told the Rho Chi in private and then had the opportunity to leave before the rest of the Bid day activities began.

You met in private? For both your lists and your bid cards? Wow! We didn't, we met in groups and our Rho Chi handed the lists out to us face down and then we had to go through the books and review our notes from our real estate books. I think that everyone in my Bid Group was given their bids in public too. We got them by Lake LaVerne right before we met up with everyone else. I like the way your Rho Chi did it better.

bluefish81 07-27-2004 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carnation
Do y'all remember a few years back when a PNM told us that at her school on Bid Day, the PNMs stood in a circle holding hands and shut their eyes and the Rho Chis came around and tapped the shoulders of those who didn't receive a bid and they had to step out of the circle? Then everyone opened their eyes to see who was still in the circle and had a bid.:eek:

I almost cried for the girls without bids.

Oh my! :eek: That just sounds so completely wrong and heartless.

honeychile 07-27-2004 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltaBetaBaby
I think you are mis-interpreting the original point, here. She is not saying go through FR, and if it doesn't work out, go the following year. She is talking about really considering all your options the first time you go through.

Let's say your campus has five houses. After the first round, you LOVE AAA, kinda like BBB and CCC, and don't really feel EEE or FFF. You get your invites, and AAA has not invited you back. Well, maybe BBB or CCC is that second pair of shoes, and you should give them a shot to impress in the subsequent rounds.

Thank you! I didn't think it was that hard of an analogy to interpret!!

ISUKappa 07-27-2004 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluefish81
You met in private? For both your lists and your bid cards? Wow! We didn't, we met in groups and our Rho Chi handed the lists out to us face down and then we had to go through the books and review our notes from our real estate books. I think that everyone in my Bid Group was given their bids in public too. We got them by Lake LaVerne right before we met up with everyone else. I like the way your Rho Chi did it better.
Well, it's been a while, so my memory could be a little faulty, but I distinctly remember meeting individually with our Rho Chi in the mornings because she called us each into our floor lounge to fill out our party acceptance cards.

As for bid day, I'm going on what the other girls in my rush group told me--I had marching band so I didn't get to do all the fun things. Our Rho Chi was super awesome. I saw her a few years later at People's and she remembered me!

HotDamnImAPhiMu 07-28-2004 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by honeychile
Thank you! I didn't think it was that hard of an analogy to interpret!!
it wasn't.


and thanks to 33 and S&S for saying eloquently what I was thinking.

shadokat 07-28-2004 11:03 AM

ktsnake, I've seen your system at work, and to be honest, it's not a system. It's a free for all. And yes, maybe that's the way the men want to run things.

It's not tradition for the sake of tradition. The system works. Unlike fraternities, the # of sororities on a given campus is usually what the campus can support. With fraternities, you all come on, colonize, and then another and another and another. For instance at U of Illinois (numbers are from their website, Spring 2004), there are 45 fraternities and 18 sororities! And the numbers...they tell the story. The largest fraternity at Illinois has 139 members, which is fabulous, but the smallest has 16. For sororities, the largest has 167...the smallest 107. Yes, a big difference, but nowhere NEAR the difference of the fraternity numbers. And average chapter size, well, it's no contest really. For fraternities, average chapter size is 64. For sororities, 147.

I'm not saying we have a perfect system. I'm saying we have a system that works to build and maintain a greek community. We don't bring in more than the campus can handle, and when the campus determines its readiness to add new chapters, then we go ahead. Our system tries to help weaker chapters become stronger, though it doesn't always succeed. While every campus isn't Illinois, I think it shows the example of how NPC and the system it uses for recruitment works.

As for cream rising to the top, I don't buy it. The largest fraternities, #s wise, on my campus, were always the biggest partiers, biggest hazers, and couldn't give 2 craps about what their founders built the fraternity on. Again, my experience only, but it's what I know.

Anyway, off the soap box...



Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
So tradition for the sake of tradition?

If it works, why mess with it?

Do you not think that it could possibly work better?


twhrider13 07-28-2004 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
The cream rises to the top. Those who do not compete fail.

It's the free market at its finest.

But if an organization weren't the "cream," so to speak, would that organization not be the first to b!^@h that they were not getting a fair shake and insist that the rules be changed in their favor? We bypass that by already having those rules in place.

*The above may not make a lot of sense, because I'm about to leave for work. I'll clarify later if necessary. :p

Kevin 07-28-2004 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twhrider13
But if an organization weren't the "cream," so to speak, would that organization not be the first to b!^@h that they were not getting a fair shake and insist that the rules be changed in their favor? We bypass that by already having those rules in place.

*The above may not make a lot of sense, because I'm about to leave for work. I'll clarify later if necessary. :p

A group that cannot succeed on its own is doomed to fail. A small group does not usually have the clout in IFC to get the rules changed to favor it. Even if they were, they'd still continue to suck despite the rules.

As for the Illinois example, according to the numbers I'm coming up with, there are still 400 more men involved in greek life than women. Usually the women outnumber the men. If the average size is so high, I'm sure the campus could support more. Someone is underachieving due to some kind of problem that is most likely exclusively theirs. Should they be allowed to continue and bring the whole system down by not allowing expansion? It works both ways.

It's one of those situations where there is no situation that is really "better" than the other. Y'all chose your way, the NIC chose its own path. We as members get to live with the results.

ISUKappa 07-28-2004 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
It's one of those situations where there is no situation that is really "better" than the other. Y'all chose your way, the NIC chose its own path. We as members get to live with the results.
Exactly. So it's best not to question how NPC does things if it works for us.

suwhitestl 07-28-2004 03:59 PM

It has always seemed to me that we would all be better off with a little different of an approach.

The men could benefit from adding some structure to their process and the women could loosen up a bit so it was a more comfortable (read less formal) experience.

Instead of pushing our way or nothing -- we would probably be more successful from learning from each other and the benefits of each system.

Senusret I 07-28-2004 04:10 PM

I just got off the phone with my mom, who pledged Delta Sigma Theta in 1971. The way rush worked at Ferris State College (in those days) was that there was a rush "period." The way she remembers it, you would just get invited to teas by whatever sorority was interested in you. You had to attend every tea you were invited to, not just the one you wanted to join.

My mom apparently had friends in NPC sororities, and she has kept the invites and souveniers in her scrapbook.

I think it is interesting to see NPC and NPHC women going through the same rush, and I don't think it's a bad idea. The part I don't like is the mathematics of it all.

Senusret I 07-28-2004 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by suwhitestl
It has always seemed to me that we would all be better off with a little different of an approach.

The men could benefit from adding some structure to their process and the women could loosen up a bit so it was a more comfortable (read less formal) experience.

Instead of pushing our way or nothing -- we would probably be more successful from learning from each other and the benefits of each system.

You are so right.

navane 07-28-2004 04:41 PM

Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by James
A large part of the sorority system seems predicated on the idea that even if mutually selected, the numbers issue might make a PNM not get a bid for the house she wants.

Ok fair enough. But why do we expect and pressure them to join the house she doesn't want?

That seems to be an enormous flaw in the system.

Does anyone else agree? Or disagree?



Ok, I think a lot of people here went off a little bit and the only answer given to the question was "we don't do that so mind your own NIC business".

I'm not afraid to answer this question and possibly gain the disdain of my NPC sisters. Why? Because I'm not exactly the top candidate for the Miss Politically-Correct contest.

When I first read James' question, I did not think of the rules for bid-matching, or the technicalities of if a card is signed or not, etc. I immediately thought about female behaviour. In general, women are not the kind who like to be confrontational or rock the boat. Clearly, NPC women have this thing with making everything "fair" or "equal".

Now, several times I have seen an occassion where a PNM reported that she was left with chapters on her invite list which were not her 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice. Some of these chapters were at the very bottom of the PNM's personal list. The PNM wanted so very much to be in a sorority, but she just did not want to be in that one on the bottom of her list or bid. Girls like this agonize or whether or not to quit.

I cringe when I read impassioned pleas from sorority women encouraging the PNM to not give up and to "give that chapter a chance" because, "you might end up loving it" or "that chapter must have seen something in you". Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it. <shudder>

Given that a young woman may be agonzing over a decision, are you going to try and tell me that her Rho Chi encouraging her to not quit because "you may grow to like it" is not pressuring her to join a house she truly doesn't want?!?! I see that happening here on GC every recruitment season. Very rarely does someone say, "Yikes, you only got invited back to the one house you disliked the most and now you want to drop out? Yeah, it sounds like you may have to do that and try again at next recruitment".

Now, before someone goes off on one, let's qualify that sometimes a PNM's disappointment stems from not getting her first choice house and nothing else. These girls truly do like their 2nd choice, but, they are momentarily blinded by their emotions. In that moment of disappointment, they think that NONE of the choices are good because they got cut by that ONE chapter. These girls are the ones which need to be gently reminded about how they really liked their other houses too and how they should stay in recruitment.

However, I repeat, this is not appropriate to do with girls who believe that they got a bid from a chapter that they simply do not like. This is what I perceive James to be talking about. Why put pressure on a girl to accept that bid? What if she's miserable? How "fun" was that for her or the chapter who bid her?

What's that you say? "She could always drop out before initiation if she doesn't like it"? Yes, she could, but is that always the best idea? On some campuses, pledging a sorority, and then later dropping out, is the kiss of death. Of course, we also have the issue of being hit with the one-year rule. Great, so she spends 4 weeks with the chapter she really did not want, quits and must now wait a year because she's bound by a rule. All because someone appealed her emotions and told "but....but...but...you may end up liking it" all in the name of not being confrontational or being "fair" to a chapter. Now this PNM doesn't have a chance to find the sisterhood she really wanted because she's ineligible for informal recruitment.


James, I don't think it's a flaw in the system. I actually like some of the concepts of NPC recruitment - I also like the way NIC does it too. The "problem" here is that women have particular ways of viewing the world. It's not bad, just different. The desire to not want someone to be disappointed or have their feelings hurt sometimes causes ladies to push things in the wrong direction. If you've ever seen the mother from That 70's Show, you'll know what I mean. That character would rather cover everything up with a smile instead of address the problem.

If a PNM knows in her heart that she is not right for XYZ, then we should respect that and have full confidence in a woman to know herself and exercise her own good judgement.

.....Kelly :)

33girl 07-28-2004 05:10 PM

Re: Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by navane
Now, several times I have seen an occassion where a PNM reported that she was left with chapters on her invite list which were not her 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice. Some of these chapters were at the very bottom of the PNM's personal list. The PNM wanted so very much to be in a sorority, but she just did not want to be in that one on the bottom of her list or bid. Girls like this agonize or whether or not to quit.

I cringe when I read impassioned pleas from sorority women encouraging the PNM to not give up and to "give that chapter a chance" because, "you might end up loving it" or "that chapter must have seen something in you". Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it. <shudder>

Given that a young woman may be agonzing over a decision, are you going to try and tell me that her Rho Chi encouraging her to not quit because "you may grow to like it" is not pressuring her to join a house she truly doesn't want?!?! I see that happening here on GC every recruitment season. Very rarely does someone say, "Yikes, you only got invited back to the one house you disliked the most and now you want to drop out? Yeah, it sounds like you may have to do that and try again at next recruitment".

Now, before someone goes off on one, let's qualify that sometimes a PNM's disappointment stems from not getting her first choice house and nothing else. These girls truly do like their 2nd choice, but, they are momentarily blinded by their emotions. In that moment of disappointment, they think that NONE of the choices are good because they got cut by that ONE chapter. These girls are the ones which need to be gently reminded about how they really liked their other houses too and how they should stay in recruitment.

However, I repeat, this is not appropriate to do with girls who believe that they got a bid from a chapter that they simply do not like. This is what I perceive James to be talking about. Why put pressure on a girl to accept that bid? What if she's miserable? How "fun" was that for her or the chapter who bid her?

It depends why she "just doesn't like it." Is it because she feels she has nothing in common with the sisters, or because it isn't the most popular house? There are women - and we've seen some on GC - who go into rush liking the top 1-3 houses - thinking that they DESERVE to be in those houses - and if they get cut from those don't want to go on. It has NOTHING to do with how she related to the women in the chapter or how she feels about the sorority's values or mission - it has to do with "oh boo hoo, I was top of the heap in high school and OBVIOUSLY I should be there now as well." Sorry, but don't expect me to cry any tears for this sort of thinking.

And yes, I know that there are schools where if you're in an "unpopular" house, you have limited social options. This is truly a sucky situation. But I think in that case the sorority needs to try & find the rushees that are up for the challenge of strenghthening that chapter, instead of "let's invite everyone and hope someone comes." It makes the PNMs upset because they have to go there and it makes the sorority look bad as well.

When we say "keep an open mind" it doesn't just apply to giving chapters a chance - it also means to REALLY look at how the chapter sisters are relating to you. Don't be so desperate to make that connection that you manufacture something that isn't there and build it up - when there could be real connections somewhere else.

And as condescending as it sounds, yes, sometimes the sisters do know better than the rushee where she'll fit, at least where their own chapter is concerned. We have on our "best faces" at rush and if I get a vibe that a girl's easily intimidated by loud or sarcastic people, I know she won't fit in my chapter. ;)

sugar and spice 07-28-2004 05:16 PM

Re: Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by navane

Now, several times I have seen an occassion where a PNM reported that she was left with chapters on her invite list which were not her 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice. Some of these chapters were at the very bottom of the PNM's personal list. The PNM wanted so very much to be in a sorority, but she just did not want to be in that one on the bottom of her list or bid. Girls like this agonize or whether or not to quit.

I cringe when I read impassioned pleas from sorority women encouraging the PNM to not give up and to "give that chapter a chance" because, "you might end up loving it" or "that chapter must have seen something in you". Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it. <shudder>

I don't mean to be overly confrontational because I agreed with much of your post, and I even agree with this passage -- to an extent. I think it's difficult for many people to understand NPC rush if they haven't been through it -- it's very much a "seeing things from the inside-out" experience -- and that is why so many of the men have issues with the way it's run.

The problem is that many of the times, a chapter DOES know better than a PNM where she belongs. I'm not going to hesitate to say that this is what happened with me. Like I said earlier in this thread, two years later I can look at some of the other houses I loved and realize that know that I probably would have depledged from all but one of them, had I joined. And I know I'm not the only person on GC who can say that. So at least a handful of us are speaking from experience.

Also -- quoting from memory from further down in your post -- I think the reason that many, many of us don't encourage girls to go through rush again is because, unless there's a specific reason that they can pinpoint as to why they were cut, and this can be changed (like raising a too-low GPA), they are probably not going to fare any better the next time around. A girl who gets cut from all but one house as a freshman will be even LESS likely to prosper in rush next year unless she makes changes, and most girls, understandably, don't. (Of course, this isn't universally true -- I met a really sweet sophomore last year during rush who said she'd rushed the year before and dropped out, and felt like, as an immature freshman, she'd put up an act during rush week and her invites had suffered because the sororities saw through it -- so this time around she was going to be her real self. I checked up on her after rush and she had gotten into a top house. But she's the exception and not the rule.) The majority of women who have been through rush on both sides can see this long before the PNMs can.

But what I think this whole thing comes down to is "Sometimes people don't get their top choices, so they have to decide whether to accept the best of what they got or to try again" -- and that's definitely not just an NPC issue. In any group where there's selective membership, it's going to be a problem.

The NIC has more freedom in the way it runs its rush process. The NPC trades autonomy for stability and I think most sorority women are fine with that. But given how often we get questioned about this by the guys, apparently most of them aren't fine with it. ;)

oncelurked 07-28-2004 07:03 PM

Quite honestly, I agree that the chapters often know better who will fit in their chapter and be happy in their chapter than the PNMs do. I have seen situations where a girl thought she fit and the chapter didn't and where a chapter thought a girl fit but she didn't think so....in the end the chapter was generally right in either situation.

I can also say that while PNMs end up with a choice to accept or decline a bid at the end of the day, they have to make essentially the same decision a rushee after preference. No, they do not know exactly which organizations would want to give them a bid for sure, but they do know at least something about where they stand a chance. They also know if they are willing to try the different chapters out. If, after preference, a girl feels that she is not a good match with any of her options, she has the option of withdrawing. I am not sure of the official NPC policy for this since my school prohibits NPC/NIC/NPHC on campus, but if a girl withdrew, she then aquired the same status as a bidless PNM and could be offered a snap bid or go through COB.

In the NIC, a guy can go through and receive bids from several different chapters and choose among them. What if he receives bids from chapters he doesn't like and doesn't receive a bid from any of the chapters he did like? Does he feel pressured to accept a bid anyway?

DeltaBetaBaby 07-28-2004 07:17 PM

A note on the University of Illinois...

Overall, there are more men than women, this is correct. However, you must qualify this with the fact that NO NPC group will accept a woman who is not enrolled at the U of I, whereas some of the fraternities will. Also, the average time spent in school is longer for fraternity men than for sorority women.

navane 07-29-2004 12:57 AM

Re: Re: Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't wan
 
Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
It depends why she "just doesn't like it." Is it because she feels she has nothing in common with the sisters, or because it isn't the most popular house? There are women - and we've seen some on GC - who go into rush liking the top 1-3 houses - thinking that they DESERVE to be in those houses - and if they get cut from those don't want to go on. It has NOTHING to do with how she related to the women in the chapter or how she feels about the sorority's values or mission - it has to do with "oh boo hoo, I was top of the heap in high school and OBVIOUSLY I should be there now as well." Sorry, but don't expect me to cry any tears for this sort of thinking.

RIGHT. That's why I very specifically said:

"Now, before someone goes off on one, let's qualify that sometimes a PNM's disappointment stems from not getting her first choice house and nothing else. These girls truly do like their 2nd choice, but, they are momentarily blinded by their emotions. In that moment of disappointment, they think that NONE of the choices are good because they got cut by that ONE chapter. These girls are the ones which need to be gently reminded about how they really liked their other houses too and how they should stay in recruitment."


.....Kelly :)

navane 07-29-2004 01:36 AM

Re: Re: Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't wan
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sugar and spice
The problem is that many of the times, a chapter DOES know better than a PNM where she belongs.

Ok, let me help clarify this. I totally get that it's more likely that a chapter will know if a particular girl will fit in with them than for a girl to know if she'll fit in with a chapter. It's a numbers thing - there are more of them than there are of her. :)

I realize that when I said, "Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it", I used the wrong phrasing in my statement. I said "chapter" when I was really thinking more of Rho Chis as they're the ones who are doing the talking during recruitment. A PNM might really feel uncertain about a chapter and the Rho Chi will say, "I'm sure XYZ wouldn't invite you back unless they thought you'd be great there" or something like that.

Seriously, there are instances where struggling chapters invite back every decent girl. It's not that they truly thought the PNM would be a great match for their chapter, it's that they thought, even though they don't have too many things in common, she was "decent enough" to get an invite back.

Come on folks, please, please, please.....let's not play silly now. No one goes into recruitment and says "Oh boy! I'd just LOVE to join the weakest and most unlikeable sorority on campus!" or "I'm so excited! I really hope that I get a bid from a great group of girls that I have absolutely nothing in common with!"

And, NO, I am not hating on smaller chapters or struggling chapters. During recruitment I myself passed up the two "top" houses in favour of the two "bottom" houses because, gosh darn it, I simply liked them better. So no one better accuse me of that!

AGAIN, I reiterate I am not talking about Princess PNM who thinks she is ONLY suited for one or two top chapters and will "simply die if I don't get invited back". I'm sure the Rho Chis will be sitting there irritated thinking "This is ridiculous. She would actually fit perfectly with ABC but she's too busy primping for the others to pay any notice." THESE are the girls who need a lecture about keeping their minds and options open.

I am just saying that it seems to me like women always want to try and make everyone feel better, even if it's against the recipient's better judgement. In that effort, sometimes women would rather you suck it up than to rock the boat by saying "...but I don't feel right there!!" It's like telling your friend that her hair looks nice even though her haircut is horrendus. We'd rather keep the peace and be "nice".

Sugar and Spice, I think you said it right when you commented that, "...what I think this whole thing comes down to is 'Sometimes people don't get their top choices, so they have to decide whether to accept the best of what they got or to try again' -- and that's definitely not just an NPC issue. In any group where there's selective membership, it's going to be a problem."

Exactly, a PNM should be able to make a free and clear decision based on all her available choices....even if it means deciding to Single Intentional Preference, drop out, or accept a bid. She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes. This also means not treating all freshmen like mere children just because they are young.

I don't know, I guess I'm the only person who sees things this way. Then again, all my life I've never really been a "girly-girl" type - I guess my style of reasoning is more like a man's. Heh, my boyfriend once told me, "You're pretty logical for a woman". I didn't know if I should be complimented, or if I should smack him upside his head. ;)

.....Kelly :)

HotDamnImAPhiMu 07-29-2004 05:55 AM

because men think more logically than women and all sorority girls are the girly-girl type?

Not so sure how I feel about THAT.

No one is challenging the notion that if a PNM doesn't feel comfortable with a house, she shouldn't go there. In fact, the ONE non-Panhellenic thing we all seem to agree on is that sometimes, suiciding a house (ISP) is a good choice for some people.

Quote:

a PNM should be able to make a free and clear decision based on all her available choices....even if it means deciding to Single Intentional Preference, drop out, or accept a bid. She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes. This also means not treating all freshmen like mere children just because they are young.
This I disagree with. We have Rho Chis for a reason -- they are women who are older, have been through the sorority experience, and, now that they've had the chance to get to know the NPC from the other side, they are also getting to know the PNMs in a way the sororities don't during rush.

I am completely fine with allowing the Rho Chis to "lecture" incoming rushing freshmen. Only at my school we call it "counseling" the PNMs because guess what? Sometimes they have a hard time making decisions and they ASK their PX for help!

As for treating them like children -- some 1st semester freshmen are 17 years old. So, legally, they ARE children. But more importantly, there is a LOT that goes on in your head and heart during the next four years of college. Please don't tell me there's no difference between the decisions of a 17 or 18 year old and the decisions of a 21 or 22 year old. A new freshman has been on campus for as little as a week, away from her parents, possibly for the first time, possibly in a new state, possibly with NO friends -- and you want her to make informed, mature decisions about a greek system she may know NOTHING about in a new environment where she knows she's been judged based on 10 minute parties all week long?

I'm sorry, but I'm a HUGE fan of PX counseling. At my school the PXes were very throughly considered -- we always had about ten apply from each sorority, and took only two or three -- and the girls were wholeheartedly devoted to making sure the PNMs found their "home." Why else would they cut off all affiliation with their sisters for months on end?

I'm not saying they never made mistakes. I'm saying they were hardly the bullying, dictorial entities you seem to be describing, taking control over the 17 year old PNMs and forcing them at gunpoint into the arms of XYZ who's been struggling the last two years.


and btw: I think a LOT of PNMs are interested in a struggling house -- I was, too. Phi Sigma Sigma on my campus was struggling when I went through (they're doing great now -- what a dedicated group of ladies!) and I SERIOUSLY considered going Phi Sig because I knew I'd make a huge difference there and be a driving force from day one. What eventually happened was a group of HS friends COB rushed, pledged (the bledge group was like twice the sisterhood) and "took over" the sorority. They knew they could turn the group into whatever they wanted (and in this case, that was a great thing!)

33girl 07-29-2004 09:50 AM

I also want to say that in some situations, I don't have any issue with girls suiciding. A lot of my chapter sisters did. They didn't feel they would fit in anywhere else. They were also SOPHOMORES OR ABOVE when they did so.

There's a big difference between a soph or junior on a small campus who has been around members of all the sororities and knows what they're like in "real life" (as opposed to rush) and a freshman at Giant State U who's been on campus for 3 minutes and knows no one.

adpiucf 07-29-2004 09:56 AM

There are PNM's who want to join a struggling house because they see it as a call to action; they will be the leader who will turn that house around. And there are other PNM's who want the "prestige" of joining an "established" chapter for the "reputation." There's nothing wrong with either; it's a personal preference.

With that in mind, I think the fraternities could do with some more structure, and that sorority formal recruitment would be a lot more comfortable if the no-frills credo was fully embraced, and the party atmosphere was a lot more casual-- based more on conversation than skits and decorations.

navane 07-29-2004 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
because men think more logically than women and all sorority girls are the girly-girl type?

Not so sure how I feel about THAT.

HotDamn, nowhere in my post did I state that I believe men think more logically. On the contrary, I mused aloud about whether I should smack my boyfriend for saying something which implied that. It was a tounge-in-cheek comment. Similarly, nowhere did I state that "ALL sorority girls are the girly-girl type". What I very clearly said was that I have never been the girly-girl type. That's me, one person. The point being that, all my life, I never seemed to be on the same wavelength as the grand majority of my [girl] friends, classmates and so on.

Please do not put words in my mouth.


Quote:

This I disagree with. We have Rho Chis for a reason -- they are women who are older, have been through the sorority experience, and, now that they've had the chance to get to know the NPC from the other side, they are also getting to know the PNMs in a way the sororities don't during rush.
Actually, my friend from high school went through spring informal recruitment at a nearby university and received a bid. That fall she was a Rho Chi - she had never been on the opposite side. Plus, my own personal experience with the Rho Chi assigned to me at my uni was that she was grossly unskilled and that she lacked understanding and people skills. Unfortunately, it seems like not all campuses or occassions fit your definition. :( Though, I will address Rho Chis again further down.


Quote:

As for treating them like children -- some 1st semester freshmen are 17 years old. So, legally, they ARE children. But more importantly, there is a LOT that goes on in your head and heart during the next four years of college. Please don't tell me there's no difference between the decisions of a 17 or 18 year old and the decisions of a 21 or 22 year old. A new freshman has been on campus for as little as a week, away from her parents, possibly for the first time, possibly in a new state, possibly with NO friends -- and you want her to make informed, mature decisions about a greek system she may know NOTHING about in a new environment where she knows she's been judged based on 10 minute parties all week long?
Oh my! Just because a very small percentage of students are short of their 18th birthday, that does not mean we should treat them like children because a couple of them are so on a technicality.

I guess I just give a lot more credit to freshmen than you do. Of course they lack experience, that's obvious. But where you claim that I'm calling Rho Chis bullies and dictators, I can claim that you're calling freshmen imbiciles who need to be coddled because they're too young to make "big girl" decisions. I know *I* wasn't like that as a freshman....I was quite sharp.

Look, maybe my viewpoint stems from that fact I am a Student Affairs Professional and that "Student Transition and Retention" is my specialty. For years I worked with thousands of freshmen and transfer students at the orientation department for the second largest university in California which has 33,000+ students. I have found in my own personal experience that, even on a huge campus where they have every opportunity to be overwhelmed, freshmen aren't as naive and dumb as people sometimes think they are.

You ask if I believe that a freshman, who has just arrived on campus and knows no one, can make an informed, mature decision. My answer is an emphatic YES.

I realized just now how interesting it is that we got on this topic - I am currently writing a dissertation for my MEd in Counselling. The topic of my research? Self-efficacy and the first year university student. Bascially, that means, "an examination of a freshman's belief that s/he is capable and prepared to handle particular tasks."

I just want to repeat something you said here:

Quote:

and you want her to make informed, mature decisions about a greek system she may know NOTHING about in a new environment where she knows she's been judged based on 10 minute parties all week long?
How about if we look at this conversely? How can a sorority make informed decisions on a PNM in an environment when she's been judged on 10 minute parties all week? I should think, in this respect, it's easier for a PNM to judge 8 sororities as opposed to chapters trying to remember 1000 PNMs.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I'm a HUGE fan of PX counseling. At my school the PXes were very throughly considered -- we always had about ten apply from each sorority, and took only two or three -- and the girls were wholeheartedly devoted to making sure the PNMs found their "home." Why else would they cut off all affiliation with their sisters for months on end?
I don't have anything against Rho Chis. Barring the odd occurance like the ones I mentioned, I think they're a great idea. When done right, they're a very useful tool. How can I be against "counselling" when that's what I do for a living??

Yikes, it seems like no one is catching on here that what I'm trying to convey. Well, actually, I've received PMs (that's plural, as in, more than one) from people telling me that they understand and agree with what I've been writing here - I guess they just don't feel comfortable saying so in public. Nonetheless, I truly want you and the others (like 33girl, S&S, and so on...) to understand what I'm trying to say. :(

I am not saying that NPC rush is a horrifying experience because the Rho Chi slavemasters are trying to control the minds of the PNMs. What I have been trying to impress upon you all is that I sometimes think that FEMALE BEHAVIOUR sometimes finds an outlet to express itself full-force to PNMs when they are struggling with their recruitment. What I believe to be "female behaviour" in this instance entails either intentionally or unintentionally playing on another person's emotions or concerns and trying to convince them of making a decision against the person's own best judgement. The advice-giver does this either because she think she knows better or because she simply wants to quell any bad feelings and "make it all better". I see it here on GC all the time when people post to PNMs who are faced with tough decisions. It's my position that this isn't always the best thing to do. That's the question James posed to us - why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want?

As one of the people who PM'd me said, it's in the same vein as saying, "You'll end up in the house you were meant to". A PNM is left thinking "I was meant to end up in a house I really dislike and can never see myself in?"

Quote:

I'm not saying they never made mistakes. I'm saying they were hardly the bullying, dictorial entities you seem to be describing, taking control over the 17 year old PNMs and forcing them at gunpoint into the arms of XYZ who's been struggling the last two years.
Excuse me, but I did not say that. It's not fair to overexaggerate my points like that when I am making an honest effort to have a real, thoughtful discussion.

Quote:

and btw: I think a LOT of PNMs are interested in a struggling house
And that's why I was sure to clarify that I am not necessarily talking about struggling chapters when talking about the houses that PNMs are disappointed to see on their invite list.

Right, well, I guess I've said all I can say about this. Heh...who am I kidding, I could probably write another 40-page essay. :p At any rate, I suppose we'll just have to agree that we see things differently.

.....Kelly :)

GeekyPenguin 07-29-2004 07:27 PM

When I was a freshmen in Cow College, I wanted to pledge a certain sorority, who we will call ZYX. I didn't rush them because my then-boyfriend told me that they were all dirty hoes. I didn't think he was telling the truth but they all seemed really nice. The next week I watched ZYX sisters geting hazed beyond what I imagined people would do to each other. One of the guys in one of my classes told me to rush Gamma Phi Beta, but I said I didn't want to be in a national sorority because they had stupid rules.

The next semester, I wanted to rush a sorority we will call KLM. I couldn't because of track. Two fraternity guys I knew told me I wouldn't fit in at KLM because I was "too nice" but I knew I wanted to be a KLM and thought that way all summer, even moreso after my boyfriend pledged a fraternity that at the time was dating a lot of KLMs. People kept telling me I wouldn't be a KLM because I'd hate it, and I didn't like what KLM did to their new members, but I wouldn't rush Gamma Phi because they had stupid national rules and I knew what was best.

You all see what letters are in my signature now.

I didn't know what was best for me as a freshman. I was at the wrong college for me and it took me two years to realize that.

LISTEN TO YOUR RHO CHI. One night of sitting through a party at Tri Delt or Gamma Phi when you really wanted to be an Alpha Gam won't kill you. Don't sign a bid card if you don't want to be in that house, but don't drop out of rush before Pref. Give that house another half hour - it could result in making one of the best decisions of your life, and if not, well, your roommate probably taped the OC for you anyway.

HotDamnImAPhiMu 07-29-2004 08:16 PM

Kelly, I'm not attacking you, and I don't understand why you feel the need to be so defensive.

You're right, we will have to agree to disagree -- on this one, I'm with GP -- I had no idea what I was doing at 18 years old. I'm really glad you were not overwhelmed, scared, or confused when you started college, and even more glad your 33,000+ kids weren't, but *I* certainly was, and I see a lot of that on GC -- women who, if just given their choice of sororities, would have picked the one they THOUGHT they matched with. And many of those women ended up with a different house and now, from the other side, feel like they wouldn't have fit in with their original choice.

And those are just the ones we hear from. GC is pretty much only people who identify strongly with their GLO affiliation, so we don't see the girls who wanted ABC because it was the "top" house on campus, rushed it hard, got it -- and hated it. And would have been much happier at DEF, and know that now.

I'm not saying freshmen can't make their own decisions. I'm saying when we use the mutual selection process (and utilize Rho Chis as counselors with both the best interests of sororities on campus AND the best interests of the PNMs, who they've gotten to know) EVERYONE benefits.

ISUKappa 07-29-2004 09:05 PM

At my school, Rho Chis had to be at least Juniors and they had to have gone through Formal Recruitment. That way they have seen both sides--as a PNM and as a sister--and are better able to answer PNM's questions. They also go through a semester-long training in how to deal with specific situations--girls that get cut from every house, girls that get cut from the one house they want, girls who aren't sure what they want, etc...--the Rho Chis are there to help. In no way are they professionals, but as their title states, they're counselors. They counsel to the best of their abilities. Granted, some are inherently better at it than others, but they have all had training.

Quote:

Exactly, a PNM should be able to make a free and clear decision based on all her available choices....even if it means deciding to Single Intentional Preference, drop out, or accept a bid. She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes. This also means not treating all freshmen like mere children just because they are young.
Honestly, in all my experience as an undergrad, I've never heard of anyone really being forced to continue to attend parties at a chapter she truly dislikes. The Rho Chi may say "go back at least once and if your feelings are still strong against them, by all means cut them or drop out." My freshman roommate dropped out of recruitment on 10-party day because she just wasn't feeling the houses she was invited back to. As long as the Rho Chi feels there is a good reason for this to happen (ie, it's not Polly Princess PNM whining about being cut from the pretty house), it's usually not a huge deal. And things DO change during recruitment week as you continually spend more and more time at the chapters. THe party times increase from 15 to 30 to 45 minutes to an hour. An hour is a pretty long time to be talking to someone and should really give you a good idea whether you are a good match for that house and vice versa.

Not only should a PNM be able to make a free and clear choice, she should also be very aware on what that choice means. If she decides to SIP she has to know her chances of receiving a bid are lowered and she may be offered snap bid. If she drops out she has an opportunity to informal but the houses she was most interested in may not be COBing. And if she puts down any house on her pref card that means she is willing to accept a bid from them, even if they weren't her most favoritest house.

I agree that many college freshman are able to make their own decisions if they are given complete and honest information about what is available to them and they are honest with themselves.

SAEalumnus 07-29-2004 09:36 PM

my $0.02
 
A few points...

1) The Greek Community at large is supposed to be based on a mutual freedom of association between chapter and member. I believe that if a specific chapter and a specific PNM both desire mutual association, then that should be the only requirement for a bid to be extended. Think of it as a free market version of recruitment rather than the (over-)regulated market version typical of sorority recruitment (i.e. house totals, etc).

2) Trying to force, coerce, pressure, or otherwise push someone into membership in an organization they don't want to join is reprehensible. :mad: The whole point of joining is that you are making a life-time commitment to your organization of choice and to its members (your brothers/sisters). How can anyone expect a person to make a commitment of this magnitude to a group they never wanted to join in the first place?

3) The entire purpose of the rush/recruitment/insert_random_policitcally_correct_phrase_here period is for the PNM and the chapters to get to know as many (if not all) of the available options as they can. By the time bids are extended, a PNM should already have investigated his/her options and already know if alternate groups are acceptable to them or not.

... that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

shadokat 07-30-2004 10:01 AM

Re: my $0.02
 
Again, the NIC point of view rears its ugly head ;) No offense SAE! I love the boys!! It's just we're never going to agree on recruitment and which way is right.

As for what GeekyPenguin said, I think she said it best. It doesn't hurt to try, and if you don't like it, you don't sign a bid card and try to COB. Good post GP :)

Quote:

Originally posted by SAEalumnus
A few points...

1) The Greek Community at large is supposed to be based on a mutual freedom of association between chapter and member. I believe that if a specific chapter and a specific PNM both desire mutual association, then that should be the only requirement for a bid to be extended. Think of it as a free market version of recruitment rather than the (over-)regulated market version typical of sorority recruitment (i.e. house totals, etc).

2) Trying to force, coerce, pressure, or otherwise push someone into membership in an organization they don't want to join is reprehensible. :mad: The whole point of joining is that you are making a life-time commitment to your organization of choice and to its members (your brothers/sisters). How can anyone expect a person to make a commitment of this magnitude to a group they never wanted to join in the first place?

3) The entire purpose of the rush/recruitment/insert_random_policitcally_correct_phrase_here period is for the PNM and the chapters to get to know as many (if not all) of the available options as they can. By the time bids are extended, a PNM should already have investigated his/her options and already know if alternate groups are acceptable to them or not.

... that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!


GammaPhiBabe 07-30-2004 11:30 AM

Quote:

She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes.
The problem with this is that so many PNM's hear rumors and stories about different organizations that they may make up their minds that they "truly dislike" an organization without really knowing anything about it.
Without having been through a big formal recruitment yourself, I'm sure it it is hard for you to imagine what it would be like to be in a new place, knowing almost no one, and having to rely on first impressions and "tent talk" to make an important decision. I don't think that anyone should be forced to stay in a chapter where she truly doesn't fit in... but the truth is that most PNMs don't actually know whether or not they'll fit in until long after rush is over.

I think that, at many schools, the majority of soroity chapters are, in fact, very similar. They all have similar social events, similar houses, similar traditions. Sure, some of them are more sought-after and some of them have lower numbers. But I think that you get out of a sorority what you put into it, and if you are willing to be open-minded and give it a shot, even if you are disappointed, you will end up being satisfied with your experience. And, if not, there is always the possibility of going through rush or COB the following year with a more informed outlook.

Measi 07-30-2004 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
I have to say I don't like the thing of everybody opening their bids together in public...in my day the sororities came to everyone's door individually. And yes, maybe your face did fall when you saw it was ABC instead of XYZ but at least it was only in front of 3 sisters instead of all the rushees and sororities.
I would have been mortified if it was in public. :(

Mine was delivered to my door by three sisters, and it was fantastic.

~ Mel.

XOMichelle 07-30-2004 12:09 PM

Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by James
A large part of the sorority system seems predicated on the idea that even if mutually selected, the numbers issue might make a PNM not get a bid for the house she wants.

Ok fair enough. But why do we expect and pressure them to join the house she doesn't want?

That seems to be an enormous flaw in the system.

Does anyone else agree? Or disagree?

I think part of the problem is that some girls refuse to join chatpers based on the idea that they aren't cool if they don't join a top house, and not for any other concrete reasons. I come from a local chapter that has a lot of girls come in saying they don't want to join, and I had a great experience. It's a big slap in my face for a PNM to say "I'm too good to join your house".

carnation 07-30-2004 12:21 PM

I truly believe that one thing that causes Southern girls to end up in a chapter they don't want is the fear of hurting someone's feelings. As a Greek advisor, I came up behind several Rho Chis who were trying to pressure girls into returning to parties where they didn't want to be by playing on this. ("Oh c'mon, Amanda, if you don't go back to XYZ, Lori from your hometown will be really, really hurt.")

And before you knew it, the PNM was gently jollied into pledging a group she definitely didn't want, the Greek Office would have a hysterical girl on their hands, and a depledge usually resulted.:(

Measi 07-30-2004 05:40 PM

Re: Re: Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by XOMichelle
I think part of the problem is that some girls refuse to join chatpers based on the idea that they aren't cool if they don't join a top house, and not for any other concrete reasons. I come from a local chapter that has a lot of girls come in saying they don't want to join, and I had a great experience. It's a big slap in my face for a PNM to say "I'm too good to join your house".
It is a slap, but at the same time be thankful that that girl *isn't* a member of your house with that attitude! One person who thinks they're "above" the rest of their sisterhood can tear a chapter apart.

~ Mel.


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