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-   -   No place for average PNMs? (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=107241)

violetpretty 09-05-2009 05:56 PM

No place for average PNMs?
 
In the age of quota and RFM, I am having a hard time understanding how a PNM with nothing “wrong” with her except being out of state and/or not having recs can get cut from ALL chapters at a competitive campus. Note I am NOT talking about a PNM who gets cut by all chapters but one or two.

By nothing “wrong”, I mean this theoretical PNM is simply average (not poor) in the area of grades, involvement, looks, and conversation, and she does not have a reputation issue. Especially at academically competitive universities, the chances of a PNM looking poor on paper are slim because she wouldn't have been admitted to the university in the first place.

Quota is set to optimize the number of PNMs joining chapters and the number of chapters making quota. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

With RFM, the “top” chapters are forced to make the steepest cuts the first round, and the “bottom” chapters are advised to make minimal cuts throughout the process, cutting PNMs who do not meet their membership standards (poor grades, poor conversation/personality, poor personal presentation, etc). This optimizes the placement rate.

Even if this theoretical PNM is from out of state and/or does not have recs (read: unknown), “bottom” chapters have the luxury of not being forced to make steep cuts and therefore have time to get to know her through conversation.

Is there no place for a PNM who is average and unknown? I am not talking about “top 6” at UT or “Old Row” at Bama, etc. I know this may be treading into MS territory, but do “bottom” chapters at competitive schools cut PNMs when there seems to be “no reason” (none of the reasons discussed above) to cut her?

If there are a lot of PNMs getting cut for “no reason”, that’s usually when a Panhellenic looks to Extension.

Perhaps the PNMs/mothers of PNMs released by ALL chapters are simply not telling us on GC any “reason” they could have been cut. And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

carnation 09-05-2009 06:09 PM

I mentioned about a month ago that I'd spent some time with one daughter, writing recs for students from the private school where she teaches. These girls had it all--over a 4.0 with AP courses, gorgeous, incredible activities and awards on their resumes, and all I could think of was if this was who the average PNMs were competing against, they were in big trouble. I knew there were many more with the incredible resumes and looks; I had met them in Birmingham, Atlanta, etc.

I so feel for the girls who are unprepared or from small towns. What must they think when they get to campus and see all these beautiful and self-confident girls? I've known several who never made it to the first rush party because they were so stunned by their competition.

Some of these girls--truly, there's no concrete reason to cut them. They would be in demand on many campuses; they're attractive, active, social, and so forth. But... when the big cuts come at competitive schools, many groups will keep those whom they know and those whom they know of.

KSUViolet06 09-05-2009 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violetpretty (Post 1843720)

And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.


This.

I say it all the time, but I know that if I were a PNM who read GC, I'd probably assume that most women who rush at big schools DON'T get bids because we see a higher number of bidless women here than I think actually occur in real life. I agree that it is likely due to the fact that alot of the PNMs who come here are not as well prepared as most of the PNM pool at some of the more competitive schools.

Also consider the fact that alot of these unprepared women likely want the same top chapters that all of their friends want. So when they are released from those, they likely do still have a shot at some other great groups, but they aren't interested in those, so they just drop out.

violetpretty 09-05-2009 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnation (Post 1843723)
Some of these girls--truly, there's no concrete reason to cut them. They would be in demand on many campuses; they're attractive, active, social, and so forth. But... when the big cuts come at competitive schools, many groups will keep those whom they know and those whom they know of.

Of course these PNMs will be cut from top and middle chapters at competitive schools, but does this sentiment apply to bottom chapters who don't have to make "big cuts" per RFM?

violetpretty 09-05-2009 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 1843724)
Also consider the fact that alot of these unprepared women likely want the same top chapters that all of their friends want. So when they are released from those, they likely do still have a shot at some other great groups, but they aren't interested in those, so they just drop out.

Oh, of course that happens at every school. I'm talking about PNMs who get cut from every chapter, not drop out because they don't like their choices.

I think sometimes PNMs/moms of PNMs will say they "got cut from every house" when they really mean they "got cut from every chapter they cared to join".

carnation 09-05-2009 06:24 PM

I don't know how the bottom chapters cut when they have to but lately I've been shocked by some of the girls that they've cut. I can see where they might feel like cutting the top of the line girls who will be heavily in demand anyway but I can't figure out why so many of them are cutting good quality girls. Recently, some good, solid girls from our city have been cut; girls who have been leaders here, had steady reputations, and were attractive and social and the local Greeks of all ages have been stunned by it. I've talked to many, many other southern GCers and they've seen the same.

jwright25 09-05-2009 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violetpretty (Post 1843720)
And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

Yep. I agree with you and KSUViolet06. On many occasions I have read "reports" on GC of the massive amount of women who were released from all chapters at particular campuses, when in fact that is not the case. I've bitten my tongue (fingers?) more than once and resisted the urge to make the correction - no need to kick someone when she's down. (Even though it makes the sororities at that school look like evil monsters.)

I think that we have a rash of mommies who are trying to justify their awesome daughters' release by overdramatizing the number released from all chapters. And I also believe that there are some daughters who don't tell their mommies the whole truth and simply say that they were cut from everyone when in fact they still had options but chose to withdraw.

KSUViolet06 09-05-2009 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violetpretty (Post 1843728)
I think sometimes PNMs/moms of PNMs will say they "got cut from every house" when they really mean they "got cut from every chapter they cared to join".

This too.

Alot of times I really think that when someone says "I/my daughter went bidless at Bama/UT/wherever" on GC, the translation is actually:

"I/my daughter only got invites to 2 or 3 chapters that weren't her faves and dropped out."

jwright25 09-05-2009 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnation (Post 1843730)
I don't know how the bottom chapters cut when they have to but lately I've been shocked by some of the girls that they've cut. I can see where they might feel like cutting the top of the line girls who will be heavily in demand anyway but I can't figure out why so many of them are cutting good quality girls.

NOT saying this about anyone you know - cause I obviously don't know them. :) However, some bottom chapters cut women who are rude and completely uninterested in them.

Titchou 09-05-2009 06:28 PM

If your national organization requires that you have a rec for all NMs, then it doesn't matter if you are top tier or bottom tier, you have to release the woman if you can't get a form on her. Now of course, there are "ways" to get one but frankly, having been an adviser for many years, I'm not signing one on someone we can't find out about and who is average - particularly at a bottom tier school. Strange as it may sound, they have to be picky too - or they are going to stay on bottom. And she is truly average - average grades, average abilities - she's not going to help you raise your GPA or accomplish those things which your organization thinks you are deficient in.

Granted, some schools actually have an "average" student population. At those schools I might be inclined to take her, but not most other places.

angels&angles 09-05-2009 06:47 PM

Also, sometimes members have their own reasons to cut a girl. I have a very good friend who was released from all chapters. This girls is cute, incredibly smart (I believe she was 2nd in the class, pre-med, all top honors), and nice. However, she was very religious and a little awkward. By the time we graduated I think any sorority would be blessed to have her, but apparently during pre-rush activities she really turned some members off, with her talk of religion and her over enthusiasm.

I can imagine her mother coming on here to say "What happened?" because the girl IS pretty, smart, talented and nice. She just didn't make a good impression on THOSE girls, even if she might have made a good impression on others.

Most of the other girls I know who got cross-cut had reputation or alcohol problems (again not something their mothers probably knew about). The rest all had choices and refused them. It's a pet peeve of mine when girls say they "got released from recruitment" or "cut by all the chapters," when they really had a bid or invitation to one or two groups. I don't know why ANYONE would rather say that they were undesirable to all groups rather than say something like "I decided sorority life wasn't for me right now," or something. I understand not wanting to be a member of the chapter if you really didn't click with the girls, but why paint it as them rejecting you rather than a reasoned decision you made on your own?

Just interested 09-05-2009 07:06 PM

This is going to be a great thread! I can't to hear everyone's thoughts.

APhiAnna 09-05-2009 07:25 PM

To be honest too, sometimes the advice given on here is more focused on what an alumni/advisor would like to hear in recruitment rather than what a 19 year old sophomore is actually going to want to hear. For example, I agree it's good to ask questions about the philanthropy, GPA, etc. But if it's been two parties and all she's done is ask questions about the chapter, she's gained a lot of information about the sorority but the sorority has gained none about her. They may be stuck...sitting around thinking, "well, she's obviously interested, but can I see hanging out with this girl in my sweatpants around the TV? Can I see myself wanting to be her big? Will she be fun to be with at socials?". So I think it is REALLY important to make sure the actives are learning as much about you as you are learning about them...GPA and community service are great, but at the end of the day we want a sister and at some schools EVERY PNM coming through has incredible GPA, activities and community service.

Benzgirl 09-05-2009 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angels&angles (Post 1843737)
I can imagine her mother coming on here to say "What happened?" because the girl IS pretty, smart, talented and nice. She just didn't make a good impression on THOSE girls, even if she might have made a good impression on others.

Exactly!

I often wonder when I read these stories and think to myself, "wow, I didn't realize that God created so many perfect creatures".

The bottom line is that sometimes a person can rub others the wrong way and with initial impressions, it can blow your chances. Over the years, I have interviewed thousands of people for jobs and hired hundreds. Many times when I didn't hire a person, someone would say, "I know Jane So-And-So. Once you get to know her, she is really a nice person". Well, Jane So-And-So needs to realize that a first impression is sometimes your only impression. Jane may have said something without thinking, implied something or it was 'how' she said something that turned someone off.

KSUViolet06 09-05-2009 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APhiAnna (Post 1843750)
To be honest too, sometimes the advice given on here is more focused on what an alumni/advisor would like to hear in recruitment rather than what a 19 year old sophomore is actually going to want to hear. For example, I agree it's good to ask questions about the philanthropy, GPA, etc. But if it's been two parties and all she's done is ask questions about the chapter, she's gained a lot of information about the sorority but the sorority has gained none about her. They may be stuck...sitting around thinking, "well, she's obviously interested, but can I see hanging out with this girl in my sweatpants around the TV? Can I see myself wanting to be her big? Will she be fun to be with at socials?". So I think it is REALLY important to make sure the actives are learning as much about you as you are learning about them...GPA and community service are great, but at the end of the day we want a sister and at some schools EVERY PNM coming through has incredible GPA, activities and community service.

This.

Conversation is SO important.

At the end of the day, if all PNMs are pretty much equal in terms of grades, recs, and other tangibles, the girls who are going to get the invites are the ones that the members can actually SEE themselves hanging out with in real life. The only way members can discern that is through CONVERSATION.

So while it is good to want to talk to sorority members about the sorority, PNMs need to remember that at the end of the day, that member needs to know about YOU as a PERSON and whether she can see you as a friend and part of the chapter.

With that said, I think conversation comes into play in a lot of these "my daughter didn't get a bid" stories. Mom comes here and says "I don't know what happened, she has a 4.0, was a cheer captain, and had a full slate of recs."

What I think parents fail to understand is that they WEREN'T THERE to see the actual INTERACTIONS between her daughter and the sorority members. It is entirely possible that she was AMAZING on paper, but the conversations just weren't there.

These ARE just my opinions though peeps, so feel free to disagree with me.



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