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-   -   Beta Theta Pi pledge dies at Penn State (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=226258)

Kevin 06-02-2017 07:59 PM

Getting into the legalese, but the university taking control of the fraternity and sorority misconduct and adjudication process seems like it would be a special law. Especially when groups like Trilogy are not sororities (my understanding). Pennsylvania and most other states' constitutions prohibit laws which apply only to some members of a particular class (student organizations), but not others and for which the classification is arbitrary.

If somehow NIC/NPC groups had their autonomy taken away while groups like Trilogy did not, I don't think that'll work.

clemsongirl 06-02-2017 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekOne (Post 2433003)
A guy could ask to join the chapter. However, there is likely a membership selection process at which they could simply say that they didn't like him. It would take a bunch of guys trying to join this chapter to create a case for exclusion due to gender.

Because ESA has only been on campus since Chi O left in 2014, it is not as entrenched as Trilogy is after 8 years.

From what I know of groups without single-gender social exemptions from Title IX, as long as a man completed all the requirements necessary to join I don't think they could stop him from doing so if he was determined. I know that's the case with the local music-interest sorority on my campus-their membership is all female but they would be required to take male students if they completed all other requirements. What this looks like in practice is obviously different than on paper, though.

33girl 06-03-2017 02:43 AM

I seem to remember a lot of these things being called for at Penn State multiple times over the years. I have to think that if they overstepped and infringed on groups' autonomy for things like member termination (which it sounds like they're talking about) the groups will pull up stakes and leave, which will leave the campus with even more Trilogies and ESAs.

GreekOne 06-03-2017 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2433029)
If somehow NIC/NPC groups had their autonomy taken away while groups like Trilogy did not, I don't think that'll work.

Not to mention that their proposal is directed at only IFC and Panhel. The Multicultural and NPHC chapters are not included in these restrictions. Since no NPC group was involved in the Beta tragedy, they can't say this is a result of that incident. How does a university decide that two of its Greek councils are sanctioned but two are not?? Seems that legally there are no grounds.

Kevin 06-03-2017 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2433043)
I seem to remember a lot of these things being called for at Penn State multiple times over the years. I have to think that if they overstepped and infringed on groups' autonomy for things like member termination (which it sounds like they're talking about) the groups will pull up stakes and leave, which will leave the campus with even more Trilogies and ESAs.

Rather than leaving, they'd probably just terminate their relations with the University and act as off-campus organizations which self-police. Groups such as Trilogy could still be formed by those off-campus organizations so they could participate in government and utilize school resources through proxy orgs.

ASTalumna06 06-04-2017 12:06 AM

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/02/at...k-life-reform/

Quote:

Jim and Evelyn Piazza, the parents of student Tim Piazza who died after falling multiple times at Beta Theta Pi fraternity’s bid acceptance night, released a letter to the Board of Trustees Thursday night outlining changes they hoped to see in Penn State’s Greek life regulation during the Board’s off-cycle meeting Friday. Now, the family’s lawyer says they’re disappointed in the Board’s decisions.

“The action of the Board today was aspirational, not concrete,” attorney Tom Kline told The Daily Collegian. “There is nothing different than Feb. 4, which is the night Tim Piazza died.”

Kline criticized the Board for not imposing any specific measures about those responsible for Piazza’s death — especially the 18 former Beta Theta Pi members who were charged last month. The university has previously said these individuals will go through the student conduct process. A graduation hold was also placed on anyone who was slated to graduate at the end of the spring semester.

33girl 06-04-2017 09:45 AM

Aren't those 18 getting charged by the police? Isn't that a little bit worse than anything the student conduct board could do?

The only thing I could think of is that they are permanently expelled and can never get a Penn State degree of any kind (including branch campi).

ASTalumna06 06-04-2017 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2433145)
Aren't those 18 getting charged by the police? Isn't that a little bit worse than anything the student conduct board could do?

The only thing I could think of is that they are permanently expelled and can never get a Penn State degree of any kind (including branch campi).

I think that is what's confusing about the parents' response. Those 18 students have been criminally charged, and the school has been doing everything it can to lessen the risk to students in Greek life.

Their child died, and I'm sure it hurts even more to know that he could have been saved if just one person did the right thing and called for help. I can't even imagine what they're going through. However, there is only so much that can be done now. And nothing that's done by the school is going to bring Tim back.

The criminal justice system is working to punish those responsible. The school is taking as much action as they can. I'm not sure what else the family is looking for. I don't want to tell anyone how to grieve, but I think that their anger, sadness, and energy needs to be directed elsewhere right now.

ASTalumna06 06-05-2017 11:43 AM

Panhellenic Council responds to new Greek reforms:

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/05/pa...k-life-reform/

shadokat 06-05-2017 02:09 PM

Her response is fantastic. I just don't know how anyone gets around what will likely be some very major changes. Penn State has to save face and make amends to this family somehow, and the easiest way to do so is to sacrifice the freedoms of their Greek system. And frankly, I can't imagine any national organization standing in the way of whatever they choose to do because that will just make them appear insensitive to the Piazzas' situation.

Nothing is going to bring Tim back, that's a given, but this system is broken. The fact that so many people saw so much of this happen and did nothing just makes me sick. And if it makes me sick, I can't imagine what their family is going through. I hope that all of these factors can come together to make Penn State's Greek system better, and I hope that it can help the commonwealth pass a good samaritan law that allows for the reporting of incidents like these without repercussion. That being said, I don't give a shit if these kids were scared of what might happen...you have to be pretty cold to let someone die over your fraternity's existence. Nobody's life is worth that.

GreekOne 06-05-2017 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 (Post 2433222)
Panhellenic Council responds to new Greek reforms:

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/05/pa...k-life-reform/

I have seen letters and media appearances regarding this by the NIC. Has anyone seen or is aware of any formal response from NPC? These young ladies need support as their pleas are clearly being ignored by the administration.

JonInKC 06-10-2017 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadokat (Post 2433226)
Penn State has to save face and make amends to this family somehow, and the easiest way to do so is to sacrifice the freedoms of their Greek system. And frankly, I can't imagine any national organization standing in the way of whatever they choose to do because that will just make them appear insensitive to the Piazzas' situation.

I don't think it's right to sanction all the other orgs that had zero to do with this. It looks like Beta Theta Pi has a history of being a problem at Penn State. They are now gone permanently. Brothers are facing legal consequences for this and Beta Theta Pi is getting sued for this as well. I think what needed to be done is being done.

As tragic as the case is, punishing every person involved in the Greek system of an entire school won't bring their son back.

navane 06-11-2017 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInKC (Post 2433589)
I don't think it's right to sanction all the other orgs that had zero to do with this. It looks like Beta Theta Pi has a history of being a problem at Penn State. They are now gone permanently. Brothers are facing legal consequences for this and Beta Theta Pi is getting sued for this as well. I think what needed to be done is being done.

As tragic as the case is, punishing every person involved in the Greek system of an entire school won't bring their son back.


Yes. I also think shadokat is right in that the university might be now thinking that they need to ensure that this doesn't happen with any *other* GLO again.

33girl 06-11-2017 10:16 PM

It doesn't help that there is buzz regarding a Jerry Sandusky movie coming out.

Xidelt 06-11-2017 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2433705)
It doesn't help that there is buzz regarding a Jerry Sandusky movie coming out.

Gross.

ASTalumna06 06-11-2017 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2433705)
It doesn't help that there is buzz regarding a Jerry Sandusky movie coming out.

This HBO movie has been in the works for five years now. However, they just announced last week that Al Pacino will play Paterno, which upped the buzz about it.

shadokat 06-12-2017 01:29 PM

President Barron didn't think Beta was a problem. His words "The Beta fraternity was viewed as a model fraternity and reflected a national perspective on many best practices. The house, privately-owned and situated like all other fraternity houses on private property, was beautiful, the subject of a multi-million dollar renovation. Both the Beta alumni and the national organization provided strict rules of behavior. The brothers had a ‘no alcohol’ policy, which stated that anyone caught drinking would be expelled from the fraternity. There was live-in oversight as contracted through an external agreement with the national organization. The owner of the house wired it for video surveillance. There were no outward signs of large parties, which are frequently the bane of community members. All indicators suggested a “model” fraternity."

Penn State, like it or not, has to do something big for this PR nightmare to die down. And all of the Greek organizations at Penn State are there at the invitation of Penn State. Sort of like when your dad says "You wanna live in my house, you live by my rules." Penn State is saying if you want to be a part of this campus, we're happy to have you, but you're living by our rules. I don't think it's right or wrong...it just IS! When you haven't had a handle on what the organizations have been doing for as long as Penn State has, drastic measures may be needed.

Also, I don't think we have any right to tell the Piazzas that something will or won't bring their son back. I think they already live that reality every day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInKC (Post 2433589)
I don't think it's right to sanction all the other orgs that had zero to do with this. It looks like Beta Theta Pi has a history of being a problem at Penn State. They are now gone permanently. Brothers are facing legal consequences for this and Beta Theta Pi is getting sued for this as well. I think what needed to be done is being done.

As tragic as the case is, punishing every person involved in the Greek system of an entire school won't bring their son back.


shadokat 06-12-2017 01:42 PM

Also, if you want to follow today's hearing, where they are viewing the video of that evening, you can do so by following @crawriter on Twitter or go to pennlive.com. Be warned, it's brutal.

GreekOne 06-12-2017 03:26 PM

They have formed their new task force which, interestingly, does not include any women who would have knowledge of NPC's position. In two years, there will be no freshmen permitted. This will be the end for many fraternities there.

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/11/pr...-team-members/

33girl 06-12-2017 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekOne (Post 2433728)
In two years, there will be no freshmen permitted. This will be the end for many fraternities there.

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/11/pr...-team-members/

Why would deferred rush end a fraternity? That sounds like my school's extremely dingy Greek advisor who moved sorority rush to first semester freshman year "so we can get them before they know any better."

The class distribution will be screwed up for a couple years but then it will even back out. If it's a live in issue, rent a couple rooms to independents. Seriously, it's not the end of the world.

There are so many freshmen from so many small towns who go to Penn State and get in over their heads, even without the Greek system. They're going from their home where everyone knew their name and cared about their welfare to a place full of temptations where no one really cares if they sink or swim. Personally, I don't think it's a fraternity or a sorority's job to play babysitter, tour guide and tutor all rolled into one. It's to provide brotherhood and sisterhood. If deferred rush takes that weight off the Greek system's shoulders, I honestly can't see where it's a bad thing.

But let's be real - this "sophomores and up only" will last maybe 2-3 years before the exceptionally swift administration realizes that freshmen are joining Trilogy, ESA and its male equivalents that will spring up, and partying just as hard and as stupid without national oversight.

GreekOne 06-12-2017 10:37 PM

The problem with the shift is the ability to float financially. Housing contracts are typically committed in October of Freshman year for off campus housing Sophomore year. If rushing is deferred to Sophomore year, housing would potentially have to be made up of Juniors. There would be a required transition for members to transition to this new mind set. The incumbent sophomores would have to stay in the house for 2 years to let the system catch up. If this does not happen, and the house does not have time to recruit heavy for a sophomore class, the numbers won't work for a house to financially make it.

As for sororities, the same applies. Typically at least 90% pledge freshman year and live in sophomore year, moving off campus Jr year. If they can't pledge until Sophomore year, they won't be able to live in until Jr year. It creates a housing crisis for a few years which may make or break some chapters. Housing off campus is much more affordable. If they live off campus sophomore year and enjoy thousands of dollars reduction, it will be hard for parents to justify them moving back "on campus" to pay more into the sorority suites.

ASTalumna06 06-12-2017 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekOne (Post 2433811)
The problem with the shift is the ability to float financially. Housing contracts are typically committed in October of Freshman year for off campus housing Sophomore year. If rushing is deferred to Sophomore year, housing would potentially have to be made up of Juniors. There would be a required transition for members to transition to this new mind set. The incumbent sophomores would have to stay in the house for 2 years to let the system catch up. If this does not happen, and the house does not have time to recruit heavy for a sophomore class, the numbers won't work for a house to financially make it.

As for sororities, the same applies. Typically at least 90% pledge freshman year and live in sophomore year, moving off campus Jr year. If they can't pledge until Sophomore year, they won't be able to live in until Jr year. It creates a housing crisis for a few years which may make or break some chapters. Housing off campus is much more affordable. If they live off campus sophomore year and enjoy thousands of dollars reduction, it will be hard for parents to justify them moving back "on campus" to pay more into the sorority suites.

I would be way more worried about the fraternities than the sororities (if there's any reason to worry at all). The NPC's recruitment style (with quota/total) should ensure each has enough members to live in, and their housing (in university-owned suites) eliminates many financial/ownership complications. In addition, if for some reason a sorority had to move out of a suite, I don't think that would have as much of an impact on them recruiting as it would being at an SEC school, for example, and being the one chapter without a stand-alone house.

As for the fraternities, this change isn't happening overnight. They have two years to prepare for this and change their live-in policies. If fraternity members really want their chapters to survive, they'll adapt and adjust. And everyone will be in the same boat, so there's no unfair advantage here. The chapters that suffer will be the ones who refuse to change.

ASTalumna06 06-13-2017 10:59 AM

Tau Kappa Epsilon closes its house for the 2017-2018 school year:

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/13/ta...8-school-year/

shadokat 06-13-2017 12:35 PM

I know I will get shit for this, but I think this isn't an awful idea. I love that the alumni corporation cares enough to stay involved and show the men of their fraternity the correct way to move forward.

ASTalumna06 06-13-2017 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadokat (Post 2433840)
I know I will get shit for this, but I think this isn't an awful idea. I love that the alumni corporation cares enough to stay involved and show the men of their fraternity the correct way to move forward.

Oh, I think it's a great idea, and it shows their commitment to making a move in a positive direction.

Kevin 06-13-2017 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 (Post 2433837)
Tau Kappa Epsilon closes its house for the 2017-2018 school year:

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/13/ta...8-school-year/

I can guarantee you that some of these improvements will include video surveillance.

Beta's problem was that they didn't have anyone reviewing the surveillance. In retrospect, reviewing the footage around the time of initiation in previous years might have been a good call.

ASTalumna06 06-13-2017 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2433853)
I can guarantee you that some of these improvements will include video surveillance.

Beta's problem was that they didn't have anyone reviewing the surveillance. In retrospect, reviewing the footage around the time of initiation in previous years might have been a good call.

Definitely. I wonder if this will lead to more and more Greek orgs installing cameras in their chapter houses across the country.

33girl 06-13-2017 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 (Post 2433812)
As for the fraternities, this change isn't happening overnight. They have two years to prepare for this and change their live-in policies. If fraternity members really want their chapters to survive, they'll adapt and adjust. And everyone will be in the same boat, so there's no unfair advantage here. The chapters that suffer will be the ones who refuse to change.

Amen. If you aren't going to be committed, you aren't going to be a brother. Simple as that. I have a hard time seeing that as a bad thing.

blueGBI 06-13-2017 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekOne (Post 2433811)
The problem with the shift is the ability to float financially. Housing contracts are typically committed in October of Freshman year for off campus housing Sophomore year. If rushing is deferred to Sophomore year, housing would potentially have to be made up of Juniors. There would be a required transition for members to transition to this new mind set. The incumbent sophomores would have to stay in the house for 2 years to let the system catch up. If this does not happen, and the house does not have time to recruit heavy for a sophomore class, the numbers won't work for a house to financially make it.

As for sororities, the same applies. Typically at least 90% pledge freshman year and live in sophomore year, moving off campus Jr year. If they can't pledge until Sophomore year, they won't be able to live in until Jr year. It creates a housing crisis for a few years which may make or break some chapters. Housing off campus is much more affordable. If they live off campus sophomore year and enjoy thousands of dollars reduction, it will be hard for parents to justify them moving back "on campus" to pay more into the sorority suites.

Actually, sororities live on campus in dorms in South Halls. Each sorority has a floor and a suite. From what I know, recruitment isn't as sophomore heavy as it used to be when I was at PSU but recruitment isn't like other schools. You can and will probably have a successful rush as a sophomore/junior. Given how most chapters at PSU have 150+ sisters and the average floor holds ~50 women in the rooms, the sororities won't have a problem.

The fraternities, depends on what they and their alumni corps do. I feel like from talking to other alumni, the changes will be grumbled about but in the end, will be successful.

JonInKC 06-14-2017 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 (Post 2433837)
Tau Kappa Epsilon closes its house for the 2017-2018 school year:

http://onwardstate.com/2017/06/13/ta...8-school-year/

"I'm stoked that we moved into the house! I know! Let's trash it!" :confused:

I'll never understand this mentality.

JonInKC 06-14-2017 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2433853)
I can guarantee you that some of these improvements will include video surveillance.

Beta's problem was that they didn't have anyone reviewing the surveillance. In retrospect, reviewing the footage around the time of initiation in previous years might have been a good call.

And someone from Nationals will be able to watch this footage remotely. Good times.

Tom Earp 06-14-2017 01:46 PM

Reported that after a trial day members were laughing and joking!

I am going WHAT THE HELL? What is wrong with these kids? A kid died and they did nothing to save him!

They are sad humans and a poor represntative of B T P!

Shame on them!!! I hope they all go to prison!

GreekOne 06-16-2017 09:14 AM

[QUOTE=Tom Earp;2433902]Reported that after a trial day members were laughing and joking!

I read the same thing and felt awful for the the parents. However, to play devil's advocate, this was Mr. Piazza's impression that he shared with the media which has now been widely reported.

Keeping it in perspective that the accused and their parents were greeting each other and hugging, etc. it may have appeared that they were "acting like they were at a fraternity party." when in reality they were saying hello and commiserating about the shared hell that they must be living in.

Have you ever gone to a funeral and seen old friends then started catching up and smiling/laughing? Acting that way has nothing to do with the funeral proceedings. It is just natural to relax when you see someone that you are close to and/or haven't seen in awhile, even under adverse conditions.

I think the accused made poor choices the night of Feb 2. But I believe that now some of what is being said/shared with the media is being done to create public sympathy in light of future litigation.

Tom Earp 06-16-2017 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=GreekOne;2434010]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Earp (Post 2433902)
Reported that after a trial day members were laughing and joking!

I read the same thing and felt awful for the the parents. However, to play devil's advocate, this was Mr. Piazza's impression that he shared with the media which has now been widely reported.

Keeping it in perspective that the accused and their parents were greeting each other and hugging, etc. it may have appeared that they were "acting like they were at a fraternity party." when in reality they were saying hello and commiserating about the shared hell that they must be living in.

Have you ever gone to a funeral and seen old friends then started catching up and smiling/laughing? Acting that way has nothing to do with the funeral proceedings. It is just natural to relax when you see someone that you are close to and/or haven't seen in awhile, even under adverse conditions.

I think the accused made poor choices the night of Feb 2. But I believe that now some of what is being said/shared with the media is being done to create public sympathy in light of future litigation.

There is a huge difference in Celebrating a Members Life in Dead than going to Court on charges!

So, tell me they did wrong and let him die? Were they just that Friggen Stupid?

Kevin 06-16-2017 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Earp (Post 2433902)
Reported that after a trial day members were laughing and joking!

This isn't unusual with people charged with a crime. Gallows humor is a thing.

JonInKC 09-02-2017 08:17 AM

A judge has thrown out manslaughter and assault charges against eight Penn State fraternity brothers in the hazing death of 19-year-old sophomore Tim Piazza,

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/penn-...174600995.html

violetgeek 09-02-2017 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInKC (Post 2440455)
A judge has thrown out manslaughter and assault charges against eight Penn State fraternity brothers in the hazing death of 19-year-old sophomore Tim Piazza,

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/penn-...174600995.html

It was for 8 of the 18 originally charged, but really?

ASTalumna06 10-17-2017 04:19 PM

And now there's this.

Suspended Penn State Fraternity Faces Underage Drinking Charges After Underage Women Are Hospitalized
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...451229223.html

Sciencewoman 10-17-2017 06:36 PM

Also, the Oct. 23 issue of Time magazine has a long article about fraternities and hazing. There is a large picture of the Piazzas, holding a picture of their son, in the article.

ASTalumna06 10-29-2017 10:06 PM

Delta Upsilon, Pi Lambda Phi Lose Recognition After Rule Violations
http://onwardstate.com/2017/10/29/de...le-violations/

Quote:

These two suspensions mark the seventh and eighth fraternities currently suspended, proving Penn State is here to play ball with its new regulations. Forty Interfraternity Council fraternities maintain their recognition at this time, according to the chapter directory released via the university’s new Greek Life Score Cards.


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