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-   -   Should we change the way PNMs think of Recruitment? (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=125239)

LAblondeGPhi 03-04-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubaiSis (Post 2129864)

And it IS a mutual selection process if you go all the way through rush as the superstar rushee who doesn't get cut by any chapters. Then the rushee gets to participate in the deciding. It does happen, even at the mega schools, just not very often, like I'd bet it goes that way for a handful of girls per school per year. Out of 1000+. If a girl can do SOME deciding, then that's great, but she shouldn't expect (although they do every year!) to get her top list for every round without having to go to any ranked chapters through the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2129874)
I think people are misunderstanding the process. The "chapters" don't get to make the decisions first. The lists of chapters and PNMs are matched together every day. Top performing chapters and top performing PNMs get what they want first which leaves both weaker performing chapters and PNMs to take what is left over on their lists that makes them think it's not mutual selection. The "chapters" as a group aren't getting any choices before the PNMs. The lists must be matched. If chapter XYZ wants the top PNMs and they don't list XYZ, there is nothing they can do about it. PNMs want to whine when they get XYZ on their list, but XYZ also whines when they get PNMs they don't want every single day. It works both ways. In the end, this is the point of RFM...to make these women think about what is in front of them instead of what they can't have (from the PNM side and the chapter side.)

Exactly - It IS a mutual selection process. Every chapter on a campus (except, MAYBE, for ultra-unusual superstar chapters at a few campuses) will lose PNMs they love at some point in recruitment. It might be on Bid Day instead of Round 1, but that's evidence of selection on the PNM side.

Conversely, how many PNMs truly get a bid to the chapter they ranked last every single day? I would say that's pretty unusual. The great majority of PNMs will have some say throughout their recruitment as far as which chapters they return to.

I think the reason why we have this idea that chapters are the ones deciding is only because we have a track record for how well chapters do in recruitment, and therefore we give them target numbers of women to return for each round of recruitment. The chapters know ahead of time about how many of their favorite PNMs to expect back, and will invite accordingly - but sometimes this means that a chapter is inviting back women they're fairly uncertain about for the next round. PNMs have no idea about their relative recruitable strength, so its an emotional shock when they aren't invited back to their favorite house.

Maybe it would be beneficial for NPC to create a video to be used at recruitment orientations around the country, explaining a little bit better what to expect during the process, and how the mutual selection process works. It'd ensure some consistency in what's being told PNMs year to year and from campus to campus.

ggforever 03-04-2012 12:11 PM

Maybe it would be beneficial for NPC to create a video to be used at recruitment orientations around the country, explaining a little bit better what to expect during the process, and how the mutual selection process works. It'd ensure some consistency in what's being told PNMs year to year and from campus to campus.

What a wonderful idea LABlondeGPhi__________________

MaryPoppins 03-04-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggforever (Post 2129879)
Maybe it would be beneficial for NPC to create a video to be used at recruitment orientations around the country, explaining a little bit better what to expect during the process, and how the mutual selection process works. It'd ensure some consistency in what's being told PNMs year to year and from campus to campus.

What a wonderful idea LABlondeGPhi

. . . Then if a PNM chooses to misunderstand the video, she only has herself to blame.

LAblondeGPhi 03-04-2012 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggforever (Post 2129879)
Maybe it would be beneficial for NPC to create a video to be used at recruitment orientations around the country, explaining a little bit better what to expect during the process, and how the mutual selection process works. It'd ensure some consistency in what's being told PNMs year to year and from campus to campus.

What a wonderful idea LABlondeGPhi__________________

Aw shucks. Thank you!

KSUViolet06 03-04-2012 01:04 PM

I'd say that the Bid Matching process is pretty mutual, but I still think that for the majority of recruitment, the balance of selection tips more in the chapter's favor than the PNMs.

And I think even with matching, you are ranking what you have, which depending on how recruitment worked out for you, may or may not be what you'd CHOOSE for yourself. For example: you could (at one time) choose to rank chapters you didn't attend for preference. You were allowed to do that if those were the chapters you'd accept a bid from, but it definitely didn't mean you were going to get a bid from any of them.

DeltaBetaBaby 03-04-2012 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryPoppins (Post 2129881)
. . . Then if a PNM chooses to misunderstand the video, she only has herself to blame.

Sadly, I think that would be 95% of PNM's. It's an intriguing idea, though...at the recruitment orientation, there are always women who speak about how great their sorority experience has been. How would things change if at least one of them spoke about having a tough recruitment? Would anyone even be willing to do that?

33girl 03-04-2012 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 28StGreek (Post 2129855)
Well thank y'all for the discussion!

Just a thought are the opinions of "Blunt, Rational, Transparent recruitment" vs "inclusive, every PNM has an equal chance recruitment" philosophies vary depending on whether a campus' Panhellenic recruitment is considered competitive?

Does the Panhellenic community at very competitive schools feel that PNMs should know how competitive it is and that they really are being chosen from a very similar field with many PNMs having stellar resumes?

This might go in the same box as "All PNMs need recs to every house or they will be cut, but Panhellenic can't explicitly state this"?

Or is this feeling present throughout Panhellenics across the majority of campuses big or small; and its just the PC police that makes the situation misrepresented to the PNMs?

Am I making sense?

Panhellenic (the entity) does not know the membership selection procedures of the individual groups so honestly, it is in their best interests (regardless of what I said below) to NOT say "you have to have recs or you'll get cut from all chapters." They don't know what criteria those chapters are using to release women unless they're in the room when it's happening. For all they know, they're using the Animal House method.

However, there's nothing to stop THE CHAPTERS from putting that information on their web page.

And to the bolded, I would say yes. That's the old girl network I referred to.

On another note, I think that NPC doesn't want to make the process sound harder than it really is at schools where Greek life is struggling already.

28StGreek 03-04-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2129888)
I'd say that the Bid Matching process is pretty mutual, but I still think that for the majority of recruitment, the balance of selection tips more in the chapter's favor than the PNMs.

Yes. Regardless of everything else, ultimately the chapters are the ones who want to put a PNM on their bid list. While not strictly true to the definition, the chapters would be see as an oligopoly, since they're the only ones which can provide the product (i.e. a bid), and as such they definitely hold the power in the relationship between a chapter and a PNM.

It becomes mutual when a chapter's bidlist and PNM preference list match up. And I suppose in a way more and more mutual towards the end of recruitment.

But in the early days of the process the chapters definitely are choosing.

AOII Angel 03-04-2012 05:21 PM

Mutual selection doesn't mean that the PNM gets to choose a chapter and join even if she doesn't fit. RFM has made the process more mutual than it was before when PNMs were strung along thinking they had a chance with that dream chapter and being cut before prefs when they have no choices left. True "mutual selection" can only occur when there are no quotas, but there are so complaining is futile. At the top end of the stratum, the chapters have more power, and at the lower end, the PNMs have more power. At all points, each party can say "No" which is their right. There really is no way around OT except to make PNMs take stock of their situation.

LAblondeGPhi 03-04-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 28StGreek (Post 2129909)
Yes. Regardless of everything else, ultimately the chapters are the ones who want to put a PNM on their bid list. While not strictly true to the definition, the chapters would be see as an oligopoly, since they're the only ones which can provide the product (i.e. a bid), and as such they definitely hold the power in the relationship between a chapter and a PNM.

It becomes mutual when a chapter's bidlist and PNM preference list match up. And I suppose in a way more and more mutual towards the end of recruitment.

But in the early days of the process the chapters definitely are choosing.

I disagree. This only holds true for the strongest chapters - but it also holds true for the strongest PNMs. I think DubaiSis mentioned it before, that if you're a weaker PNM or a weaker chapter (comparatively), then you won't have quite the pick of your favorites, but you definitely have some choice. If you are the weakest chapter or weakest PNM, you'll have the least amount of choice.

Again, I'm betting that the vast majority of PNMs are able to regret at least ONE chapter in the first round, if not more. And I'd bet that almost every PNM is able to regret at least one chapter by the end of the recruitment, if not more.

We hear much more about PNMs being upset about being released from a chapter because there are hundreds of PNM stories for every handful of sorority stories. Besides, sororities don't air their laundry about how upset they are that they lost Suzy Perfect Legacy after Round 2 - but it happens ALL THE TIME. I think the sororities are just better about not getting hung up on the lost PNMs, and instead focus on the PNMs they still have.

Again, someone mentioned flex lists on the part of the chapters. Those invitation lists aren't set in stone- additional PNMs can be released or added to the invitation list if a chapter does better or worse than expected.

Wynter 03-04-2012 06:13 PM

I honestly think the main reason PNMs are not told the "full truth" about recruitment is to encourage them to actually go through with it and do it without fear. If they knew all the dirty details (the cuts, the drops, the percentages) more girls would probably back out from the beginning.

Then again, I think it depends so much on the school you go to. At my school recruitment was SUPER competitive and I definitely felt like the "mutual selection" thing was a little sugarcoated to encourage people to stick it out. A lot of really great girls in my rush group were cut right off the bat :( They would have been wonderful sisters!

I had very good friends in several houses and had AMAZING conversations but was still cut from those chapters. At the same time, I had mediocre conversations at several chapters that seemed uninterested in me but I kept getting invited back to them and was even preffed at a house I felt no connection with at all. So I agree, it's not 100% mutual, and I do think "mutual" is a misleading term. More or less (at least from my experience, I could be wrong though) the GLOs choose you and you either go along with it and enjoy or drop out.

Of course recruitment is so complicated and it's basically impossible to give everyone A) a bid and B) what they want, especially at large schools with competitive rushes.

Wynter 03-04-2012 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2129874)
I think people are misunderstanding the process. The "chapters" don't get to make the decisions first. The lists of chapters and PNMs are matched together every day. Top performing chapters and top performing PNMs get what they want first which leaves both weaker performing chapters and PNMs to take what is left over on their lists that makes them think it's not mutual selection. The "chapters" as a group aren't getting any choices before the PNMs. The lists must be matched. If chapter XYZ wants the top PNMs and they don't list XYZ, there is nothing they can do about it. PNMs want to whine when they get XYZ on their list, but XYZ also whines when they get PNMs they don't want every single day. It works both ways. In the end, this is the point of RFM...to make these women think about what is in front of them instead of what they can't have (from the PNM side and the chapter side.)

That's a good point that I didn't think of. And I know some chapters at my school have ended up having to give a bid to girls they didn't want, but because they weren't the "top dog" chapters they had no choice mathematically.

carnation 03-04-2012 06:26 PM

Now wait. There is no way in H__ that a chapter can be forced to take girls they don't want.

KSUViolet06 03-04-2012 06:47 PM

^^Right.

Depending on the RFM numbers, a chapter might have to invite back a larger percentage of the PNM pool. But not specifically be forced to BID women.

Wynter 03-04-2012 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnation (Post 2129939)
Now wait. There is no way in H__ that a chapter can be forced to take girls they don't want.

You know what you're probably right, but this is what I heard from girls in a certain chapter. Maybe because they didn't cut said girl earlier in the process or something?


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