Again, this isn't an issue of the brothers accepting him/giving him a bid or not. It's an issue of he doesn't want to take an oath he doesn't agree with. Even if the fraternity whose official aim includes turning out "upright Christian men" has zero members who go to church, he'll still need to take vows and oaths that conflict with his beliefs.

You are right 33girl. I am not worried yet about getting a bid or not. That will depend on whether or not I get along with the people in fraternites, and I am trying not to worry about that until closer to college.

I did text someone from the college and the groups that I see myself in the most right now seem to be okay with non-religious members. He assured me that his organization wouldn't have a problem with me. It is good to know that I will have options.

Thank you for those that respect my desire to not betray my values during pledgeship. I am taking this seriously so I want to give the fraternities the best of me. I now feel more confident about bringing it up casually.

I understand the issue of not wanting to take an oath when you don't believe in the underlying God, but you can't really divorce that from the acceptance of atheism/agnosticism by members of the groups you are hoping to join. You'll never make it to the point of making said oath if the people standing between you and the oath are repulsed by the idea of atheists/agnostics. I use the term repulsed because a recent survey of americans showed that people ranked atheists with rapists on level of trustworthiness, which just shows that average religious people do NOT understand those with different beliefs than their own.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ts-we-distrust

This opens up a whole different can of worms, but AOII Angel is right. A LOT of Americans would be more cool with saying you are a Zoroastrian than an Agnostic, which by the way is not the same as Atheist. I myself have never understood why people feel the only thing between them and mass-mayhem is the threat of hell. I guess religion is super important to some people if it really is keeping them from murdering random people.

The school that I am going to attend is known for being fairly intellectual and there is a good religion department. It is also known for healthy debate and it is known for having a libertarian spirit.
In my short time I was there, I met a few people in fraternities that were not all Christian, and at my favorite fraternity, I know that at least two members consider themselves to be atheist/agnostic/humanist as well. They were more of the scientific skeptic type (like me) than the political ban the national anthem type. I see myself fitting in there. I am just not assuming that my current favorite group will give me a bid, or that I won't connect with some other group better, which is why I asked the question. It is true that a lot of people distrust "my kind" but I am not going to hide who I am for anyone, especially when my actions do not hurt anyone or break any laws. I have many Christian friends, and am considered to be one of the most moral members of the bunch. I am a great friend, loyal and thoughtful so I think I would be a good brother. I am a little worried that not everyone will get to know me and pass judgement on me, but those that do will see that I don't mean any harm when I say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

Perhaps an example from my chapter can help.

We have one openly atheist member. There were parts of the ritual which require oaths, but he simply put this in as a cultural aspect rather than a religious aspect. When asked what he is, he says a Jewish Atheist.

Lil, I know exactly what you're about. I wish you the best of luck, and I think you'll do just fine.

Sounds like you are going to the right school for you. I doubt you'll have a hard time finding the right fraternity, either. Talk to the brothers that you've already met and ask them if they had any issues of conscience while pledging themselves to their fraternity. I'd bet they'd know what you were talking about.

As a Christian, I have never understood that either. In fact, I've never understood the idea of hell as a threat period. Thankfully, I grew up in a part of Christianity that just didn't look at things that way. (And I've also never understood the idea of being offended that someone says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas.")

Lilgiant, you show a great deal of maturity, Good luck, and I for one want to hear from you again from the other side or rush/pledging/initiation.

Regarding the happy holidays thing, I'm Christian, but I say happy holidays if I'm not sure about the faith of the person I'm speaking to.

Maybe this will help!

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh....php?t=120149&

Thanks for linking that - I thought I had made a note about Delta Chi's founding on it, but apparently I did not!

To the OP - it seems unlikely that your personal religious beliefs will significantly impede your joining a fraternity (the organizations that require a statement of belief excluded of course). What you need to decide is if fraternity membership is worth swearing an oath that is to God, contains the phrase "so help me God", taken over a religious text, or the like. If this is a non negotiable for you, most organizations are probably going to be out (obviously I cannot speak for all groups' esoteric rituals). Regardless, I would encourage you to participate in recruitment and, if you receive a bid, try it out for a while before you decide if that is non negotiable for you. You may be more open to viewing such a statement in the historical context rather than the literal after being a member for some time. Or you may not, that's up to you.

I will add, for your information or future members with this question, that Delta Chi chapters are supposed to ascertain whether or not a member is willing to swear an oath to God before he is initiated, and there is an alternative for those who are not willing to do so. It should also be said that I don't believe many of our chapters actually ask this, but it is an option. Chapters with questions about this should contact the Headquarters office.

And just to make clear to Lilgiant, in that thread pshsx1 indicated that Sigma Phi Epsilon requires belief in a higher power.

Since none of us can speak concerning the esoteric rituals of other groups, I would be very hesitant to say "most." While I can see the basis for assuming it would be the case with most fraternities, it's still an assumption that may or may not be true of fraternities in general or of the fraternities on his campus in particular.

Valid point, though from conversations with friends in many different organizations I do feel comfortable saying you're safer assuming their will be religious references than not. Regardless, I still think he should reevaluate his position on whether or not he can view such an oath in its historical context after trying out membership.