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JonInKC 05-09-2017 05:09 AM


Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2431435)

The comments sections of so many of these articles about this PSU incident are pretty disturbing. So many people, despite in the U.S. not really having a legal leg to stand on, want to see the entire Greek system disbanded.

These commenters should be careful what they wish for. Here's the thing. You and I both know that "abolishing" Greek life would only make the chapters go underground. Once divorced from the University and off campus, the school would have zero control on anything that went on. Like you mentioned, freedom of association. By allowing use of campus facilities/property the school has some control of Greek life.

If they think it's bad now, imagine if every chapter went sub rosa and there were no rules.

I guess if we got rid of fraternities and sororities 18-21 year olds would quit doing stupid things, right?

Kevin 05-09-2017 08:32 AM

Agreed, but NIC organizations need to take steps to ensure that when (not if) their members do the stupid things, they are not on chapter property, doing those things in furtherance of their organization's goals or doing the stupid things as members of those groups.

I agree, 18-22 year olds are going to continue to do stupid things. Let them go be stupid on their own and not be stupid as members of our organizations. Wet housing, informal parties where alcohol is served to underage members are things we can address right now.

NPC organizations have dealt with this and pushed all of the liability onto the NIC groups. They are flourishing. It's time for us to admit that these ladies have been a lot more visionary than we have and follow suit.

shadokat 05-09-2017 12:39 PM


PREACH MY FRIEND!!! I was having this discussion at our Greek Alumni Council meeting 2 weeks ago. The fraternities at my alma mater continue to haze and do stupid stuff and THEY are the reason that they aren't successful. It also doesn't help that my alma mater has locals. But they don't understand why the number of men going through recruitment for fraternities is 20...for like 10 fraternities!!! And the two newest groups on campus, both national fraternities have a close and watchful eye over their new chapters to ensure they are doing things right. Other fraternities on campus look at these two new fraternities as a joke...they don't earn their letters. I hate to sound callous but the only letters this kid got to earn was RIP. And Beta is the reason why.

Truly, all organizations have to up their standards, or this becomes the culture.

Kevin 05-09-2017 05:36 PM

Sadly, our NIC chapters don't have a culture problem, we have an alumni problem. Alumni are the only group of people who can ensure a continuity of culture. Alumni, through a membership review or chapter receivership (available in most groups, I'd assume) process can completely alter the course of a chapter by summarily excusing any number of brothers from membership. Most NIC national organizations invest very little in the way of alumni training and development and sadly, that's the only group which can dependably and affordably handle the heavy lifting.

Schools can also be helpful. As an organizational adviser, I have to attend a training bi-annually with the school's student life office. Schools could also conduct regular investigations into organizations where they have even a whiff of hazing activity. On my campus, at least when I was undergrad eons ago, it was pretty common knowledge who hazed because it wasn't a well-kept secret. I don't really follow other organizations now, but I doubt that's different.

Those two new organizations need to be empowered to chart their own path or else they are prone to falling into the campus culture. Every few years, something horrible happens and a national group gives a lot of lip service to change, but nothing ever really seems to change.

No one can hassle me though, we've got things buttoned up at Central Oklahoma.

Just interested 05-09-2017 11:20 PM

An anthropologist is probably, as we speak, writing a book on this behavior. Tribal groups have had "hazing" initiation ceremonies since the dawn of time for their "boys" to become "men". I would just think that after thousands of years to evolve this behavior or right of passage would have changed and have become more ceremonial than an actually harming and dangerous. My "Hazing" 50 years ago consisted of holding a match and reciting the Greek alphabet before by fingers burned, getting my pledge book filled with a signature of all the members of the chapter and their favorite things, and doing phone duty at the House. I still to this day don't believe I was "hazed" but NPC has put the hammer down and saved sorority life for generations to come. I don't know if NIC is willing or able to take the stand.

LaneSig 05-10-2017 09:10 AM

The timeline of the events of the evening are--I'm actually at a loss for words. Horrible? Unbelievable? Appalling? None of these feel like enough.

Every NIC chapter should be required to read this when school starts in August. The only problem is that guys (of all ages) tend to think "Nah, it wouldn't happen to us."

ASTalumna06 05-11-2017 07:55 AM

President Barron Appears On Today Show To Discuss Beta Theta Pi And Changes Going Forward


Friday after charges against Beta Theta Pi brothers dropped, Barron addressed the media and spoke about the level of secrecy fraternities and sororities go to in hopes of breaking regulations. He reiterated those sentiments Wednesday, saying if behind closed doors a group of people are willing to band together, keep something secret, and not tell anyone, how is it that universities can manage to deal with a situation like that.

The only real tool we have in the tool box is to take away the recognition for a house, Barron said. Its private property. Its a private house. Its privately managed. It has a national organization that is involved there. It has alumni that are there. The only tool that Penn State has to be effective is to say youre no longer a student organization.

GreekOne 05-11-2017 02:03 PM

I think this poses another interesting question. One would hope that women would have intervened.

33girl 05-11-2017 03:29 PM

First off, the flippant tone in that article is highly inappropriate.

From what I've read, the social took place before the "gauntlet" began and the women had all left. They've cooperated with the police and told them all they know. I wonder if the author would have written such an article if it were an NPC sorority chapter instead.

As for quoting Hank Nuwer, his credibility is questionable. He's called a lot of things hazing that are not.

Kevin 05-11-2017 08:27 PM


Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2431569)
He's called a lot of things hazing that are not.

That's a big problem with the stats out there. I'd guess that most research is based upon FIPG numbers. The FIPG exists to ensure our organizations against loss. It does not exist to protect our members against liability. Anything they can call "hazing" means they can make an argument that they are not liable for the "hazing" because of all of the things they do to prevent the hazing.

For example, the study called Initial Findings from the National Study on Student Hazing in 2008 headlines with the idea that 55% of college students involved in clubs or other organizations experience hazing.

It then goes on to include "drinking games" as a form of hazing. That's a pretty broad category, right?

"I never" is a drinking game and so is the Penn State Beta Gauntlet. Only one of those is something I would ever call hazing. It's such a loaded word that it makes the discussion of hazing very difficult to give real meaning to.

GreekOne 05-11-2017 08:37 PM

From what I've read, the social took place before the "gauntlet" began and the women had all left.

Actually, the gauntlet took place after a short ritual. The social was to begin after that. If you read the timeline presented by the DA, the women were there when Tim fell. I have read reports that they spoke with him after his fall and they reported that he said he "was okay". So, they were definitely in a position to call 911 if they felt that his condition required medical attention.

33girl 05-12-2017 10:30 AM



Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2431569)
I wonder if the author would have written such an article if it were an NPC sorority chapter instead.

GreekOne 05-12-2017 01:03 PM


Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2431604)

I wonder if the author would have written such an article if it were an NPC sorority chapter instead.

I believe that if the Beta's had been hosting an NPC chapter that night, that group would be in hot water as well. IMO, PSU is singling out the Greeks with sanctions is far more of a CYA move, than real concern for student safety. If they wanted to implement policies to protect all students, these sanctions would be applied across all campuses, not just University Park, as well as all clubs and orgs on campus. There was a pledge death associated with hazing a few years ago at one of the branch campuses so it certainly goes on there. The THON orgs, like the one that was there that night, regularly have parties. Sanctions were not levied on the NPHC or NMGC chapters. The sanctions were levied exclusively on the IFC/Panhel chapters at University Park. This, to me, is telling about what leadership at PSU is really hoping to accomplish.

LaneSig 05-12-2017 03:18 PM

Letter from Judson Horras, NIC President & CEO and Beta Theta Pi alumnus. Probably raises more questions than answers.

"Yet, the uncomfortable truth is that the inherent limitation of our interventions is that they attempt to influence student behavior from a position of external power. Time and time again, we are humbled by the fact that our efforts are shallow unless students are committed to doing the right thing in the moment. While so many outstanding students do rise to the challenge of leadership, others fall short of their responsibility to effectively govern."

PGD-GRAD 05-15-2017 07:48 AM

"Today Show" this morning had Tim Piazza's parents and his brother with their most in-depth interview yet--it was heart-wrenching; they said they had not watched the in-house video and could not. His father had nothing good to say about Penn State officials or any of the Beta brothers or pledges. They recounted their last minutes with Tim as he lay dying in the hospital.
They said that no brothers nor Penn State officials came to the wake or funeral. The interview was just damning and heart-breaking in EVERY sense.

We ALL (advisors of both men's and women's groups) should consider showing these films and interviews to our entire chapters next fall. I believe they hit EVERYBODY, regardless of age. I've already spoken to our new chapter officers about it being part of one of next-fall's early meetings.

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