Yea, I've heard the sliced bread line plenty, too. I wonder if it's regional?

Haha yesssss! I miss Ricki Lake and all of the ridiculous topics she covered.

Ok, sorry for the random derailment. Back to our regularly scheduled PNM programming! :)

Which came first - sliced bread or bags of chips?????

^ IDK, but both chips and sliced bread are no-nos if you're on the Atkins diet. :p

OH, AZTheta.... please try to remember to come back & tell us the outcome on this one! Am I a hateful bitch for hoping she gets invites only to those "not quite good enough" chapters?

Sorry, but there won't be any update or followup. I won't be around when she goes through rush (which, by the way, is NOT at Arizona). I wished her good luck, and honestly meant it. As I've said before, I don't ever want to sabotage anyone's recruitment. She may be fine, she may drop out, she may "settle"; who knows?

She's in my rear view mirror now.

*shrug*.

My husband ran into a mom at the gym whose daughter is attending his SEC alma mater in fall and plans to go through recruitment. The mom tells him "she can't wait to meet the xyzs-she hears they're the best on campus!" I asked him "you mean the house that most every ppm ranks first? The house with the highest return rate, that takes their pick of the pnms? What did you say????" He told her "keep an open mind and give every house you are fortunate enough to be invited back to serious consideration" I trained him well!!

Yes you did!

I hope to hear what happened with this PNM.

Indeed!

Just saying, and just adding to this discussion of "many houses" and "they'll find their own" (which kinda sorta could be translated into "pmns need to be happy if they get a bid at all and who are they to have the right to choose anyway")-please remember many things pale in the shadow of the disappointment of an alum whose daughter is cut right before preference, especially when that is done without the courtesy of a phone call.

I hate it when they don't make the call. I'm old school enough to believe it's the right thing to do. But I've been around long enough to know that logistically for some chapters, it isn't that simple. Chapters that have 50-60 or more legacies coming thru face a real challenge. And not just any adviser can make the calls. Most groups require it to be a particular adviser and she's already busy....if it was 5-6,that's one thing. But 20 or so, my heart goes out to them. I've had to make that phone call and I sure wouldn't want to have to make multiple ones on the same night.

I understand that so well, Titchou. But actives need to understand that the mom could possibly never forget the hurt. And that lack of courtesy was done to someone that is supposed to be a sister. Someone who you hope someday might see your letters on your resume and give you a break, or when you need a promotion or some introductions and could link you to an opportunity. Someone whose alum sisters will ask her why her daughter pledged someone else and who may also be in the position someday to help you with a connection or an opportunity. Someone who (along with her alum sisters) for sure will get a letter to contribute to undergrad scholarships or undergrad assistance funds. And no one took the 2 minutes to give her the courtesy phone call. In my day, it was the unpleasant job of the advisor and I understand now why it is so important that is is done.

Here's the hard thing about making the call: you can't say why they were cut, even if you know why. Often, it was just a numbers thing. That one hurts because the alum might know that 500 girls are coming back to the next set of parties and all she can think of is that the chapter liked at least 500 girls better than her daughter.

Or the real reason might be something sordid, such as her daughter has a horrible reputation--and the alum might not realize this. I know local girls who've been totally cut out of recruitment for photos they put on Instagram or Facebook. No one wanted to be the one to enlighten Mom that her daughter had posted a photo of herself peeing in a sink!:(

Yup, it's a hard phone call-no one said it was easy. IMO it needs to be made regardless, and the alum advisor is a perfect one to do that deed. The specifics do not need to be shared.

I know they don't have to be but I have friends who've had the mom screaming, "WHY? WHY? I am going to sue every one of you!" or accusing them of various things. This is why many sororities don't give the call anymore.

I get what you're saying. I have many Greek daughters and recruitment was rough for a couple of them.

Exactly! And it's rarely a 2 minute phone call...it can go on and on and on. I had one that did. It was horrible. And thankfully it was the only one I had to make that year. My heart does go out to those advisers who have to sit thru multiple ones.

Carnation, feel free to move this discussion to another section, if you feel the need to, since it is somewhat off topic, but it is timely and might be an interesting topic for actives (and pmns) and alums to read, as it gives both sides a chance to see the other's perspective (and for pmns that rush is not a given, even if a legacy).

We've had several threads on alums making the call: should they, what to say, why most groups have quit, etc. but I haven't seen them lately.

I've been the recruitment advisor before and while I haven't been in a position where making such a call would be necessary, I must admit I have very mixed feelings about the value of making such calls. I fall in the camp that feels this treads a little farther into sharing specific membership selection details outside the group of people who need to know. I also have known of more than one PNM who actually ranked their legacy house too low to get a pref invite or bid, but lied to their mother/legacy relationship and told them that their org cut them. That particular kettle of fish is quite messy.

^You would hope that the mom or whoever would have the smarts to realize that her chapter has not been frozen in amber for the last 25 years, or that the chapter at mom's alma mater and daughter's school have never had anything in common except their letters. IMO it would be more upsetting to have a daughter pledge your org, hate it and drop out.

I have been on the advisor end of that phone call before. One time the alum was so stunned that she got off the phone very quickly. The other quick one was less than 5 minutes but since it was a grandmother, and it was not grandmother's chapter. She was very nice about it. Two other times, not so much. While I am glad I made the calls and avoided drama later in the process, they are not easy calls.

It would also be nice if mothers recognize that their daughters are different people, with minds of their own, and allow their daughters to make not-my-group decisions without guilt trips or repercussions.

Yeah, it would also be nice to find a cure for cancer....but neither of these things are happening any time soon....

I have a feeling that this will happen more and more as time goes on. These PNMs will become new members who will become sisters and recognize that there are simply too many legacies going through recruitment to take them all on. When they become parents, they may be more sympathetic and understanding of the chapters' position.

There will always be a few exceptions, of course, but I think this will change in the future.

Not in the deep South....

Having been a PNM recently with a legacy connection, although not an advisor, I think the phone call should go away entirely. I find it hypocritical that we tell parents to let their daughters get their own recommendations, not to helicopter, that on the university level information isn't given to parents unless they have a FERPA waiver from the student, etc, but that some sororities and chapters still tell the legacy relative about a recruitment decision that is ultimately not theirs. It should be the PNM's place to break that news however she chooses to do so, and I don't think the chapter needs to be involved in that process. I understand that the legacy relative is still a sister and it might not be easy news to take, but I think the PNM's right to conduct her own recruitment trumps the legacy's right to hear from that chapter.

More personally, the chapter making that call inserts them into what could be a potentially fraught relationship between the PNM and the legacy relative. Just because mom was willing to write a legacy recommendation doesn't mean mom and daughter are necessarily on good terms, and the chapter letting mom know what happened could strain that relationship further. We just don't know.

I think that EVERYWHERE there are alumnae who in their dotage (har) have forgotten the legacy who came through during their time as a collegian who just didn't fit. And that has been going on since there were legacies.

We didn't forget! But those girls were usually waaaay out of the ballpark. Now there are far too many legacies rushing for sororities to take them all.

Knowing sorority sisters who received "the call" about their legacies being released, I can tell you it does not soften the blow. Whether or not the legacy joins another group or remains independent, the wound never completely heals.

And I've got a story for you: I was recruitment advisor for a chapter that received a glowing rec for the sister of a Zeta who was a member of a different chapter. When the legacy showed up on the party list, we got the best rushers prepped to help the PNM have a great experience. Boy were we surprised when the legacy walked in and we discovered that she was a married mother of two in her late 20s! The campus culture is such that she did not fit the standard new member mold, nor did she meet our national membership requirements and she was released. The national policy did not require that anyone call the rec writer, but she called around and I was told by the district officer to give her a call, which I did. Turns out that the PNM was not even a real sister, but rather a dear friend with whom the rec writer had grown up, and they always referred to themselves as sisters! So I got the opportunity to gently educate the woman on our legacy policy, as well as the cultures of the campuses in the state in regards to late 20 aged PNMs.

I agree with everything you wrote, clemsongirl. I find the current process even more troubling when the legacy relative finds out before the PNM herself.

The phone call has gone away with Alpha Gamma Delta, largely for the reasons you have stated.

I have trouble with this statement in its many forms. Not to single out carnation, but I see it a lot.

I thought I understood RFM.

Quote = # women at prefs/# sororities, right?

Logically, then, no such thing as 'can't take them all'.

Even one chapter. Granted, I don't understand sorority life at chapters of 200+ members, either, but when your pledge classes are over 100 women, is it really mathematically impossible to pledge all your legacies? Has it ever happened that more legacies than the chapter could take listed that chapter as #1?

I also understand not wanting a pledge class that is all legacies. Or even a majority legacy.

Now, as a sister of a 20-woman chapter at a geeky private school in the 70s, and an alumna who recommended my daughter not rush at Texas, I recognize I'm out of the mainstream. What I fail to understand is how that changes the math.

Newbies who come to GC and make a statement like "there were too many women for the sororities to take them all" are rapidly corrected. Why is this legacy statement promulgated?

Hey DGTess! Pretty sure this has been answered elsewhere on GC & I am searching for it now. "It" being the threads about legacies and math/quota/etc. I could write you a dissertation in response to your questions. However there are others who are more succinct and I'm leaving it in their hands!

Bad advisor here...because it the chapter I advise wants to cut a legacy, I tell them that the recruitment chair will make the call to mom/grandmom, etc. It forces the women to think long and hard about the legacy because we've all heard the "she just doesn't fit" our chapter.

It's been a few years now, but I think when I was involved in my chapter's recruitment we had around the same number of legacies going through as quota, which hovered in the 60s. But, part of that was an upperclassman quota, which was around 15 because Clemson has a fairly large number of sophomores in recruitment for a couple reasons (and they are very successful). Thus, if more of those legacies were first-year students than upperclassmen, which I think they were but I don't remember for sure, we would have had more than we could take.

Obviously this is one poorly-remembered anecdote, but it's possible. Or, take ADPi's chapter at Brenau University. Quota there is something like 8-it's entirely possible that one of the six sororities there could have more than eight legacies in recruitment, especially sororities with a more liberal definition of legacy.

I agree that in generally it's not likely, and people are probably saying it more to mean "we don't want a whole pledge class of legacies", which is also valid, but a little different.

EDIT: another difference between "too many women rushing to take them all" and "too many legacies" is that legacies are chapter specific. There are a lot more ADPi legacies in Clemson recruitment than say, Sigma Kappa legacies by virtue of the fact that there are many more ADPi chapters in the areas Clemson students come from that are very old. Vice versa in other locations with other sororities. Legacies aren't divvied up at pref night equally. Also, a woman can be a legacy to more than one chapter but only counts as one PNM.

Just to throw in from experience as an advisor, the awkward call avoids a lot of hurt feelings on the part of alumnae. Sometimes the national sorority requirements are lower than the chapter or campus requirements, and in that case it is better to release the legacy.

I do think - in a chapter that had fewer legacies than some, it was helpful to be able to ask the chapter women to allow the legacy to decide whether she wanted to pledge or not if she didn't "fit" with the chapter, by saying that we did not want to disappoint their mom or sister. We usually reminded them about how would they feel if it was their sister going through. We also got some really great women that were shy during recruitment but awesome sisters.

In the chapter that had more legacies than quota (number of chapters was large but quota was low (@24) and it was an old well-regarded chapter), girls going in had an idea that a legacy was an added plus but not a sure thing.

You also have to consider that different NPC groups have different standards of what constitutes a legacy. Some recognize cousins or aunts and some only sisters and mothers. It would not hurt for the NPC groups on campus to put out a statement to the PNMs that defined this ahead of time.

Well, right now Alabama has 2500 women registered. Divide that by the 16 sororities participating in formal and you have 156. I have absolutely no problem believing that there are (for example) 200 women whose mother, grandmother (which you have at least two of) or sister (which you can have many of) is a Pi Phi among those 2500.

I could see that for a couple of chapters there. Or try any school in MS for Delta Gammas. We were founded in MS and often have close to a pledge class worth at any of the 3 schools there.

This.

And to add to what everyone else has said:

Another reason why phone calls may eventually become obsolete: Too many legacy connections for one PNM. I'm in my early 30s, and my grandparents were born in the 1920s/1930s when NPCs were still relatively new and many women weren't attending college. My mom attended a school with no NPC sororities.

As the years go on, there will be more and more PNMs with more and more legacy connections. A much higher percentage of women are now attending college. NPCs are opening between 2-7 new chapters each year. A record number of PNMs are signing up for recruitment at schools across the country.

What happens when a PNM has two grandmothers, a mother, and two sisters who were all in different NPCs? And what about those groups that consider aunts, cousins, etc. as legacy connections? Do you really think they'll each feel that they're owed a phone call?

Legacywise, the ADPis, Zetas, and Phi Mus are covered over in the Southeast. Maybe Chi Os and KDs to a lesser extent.