The Hazing Tradition

[williamsheraton]

It may come as a surprise to many of you to find out that the Greek system was implemented by Luciferians. Luciferians believe in the destruction of ignorance and innocence and the fostering of wisdom and knowledge. Some of the things that fraternities and sororities do are directly related to the ancient mysteries and the worship of wisdom. College campuses mean a great deal to Luciferians as it is here that we wage the biggest part of our war on ignorance and try and enlighten our future generations.

You may be young right now and not know the full implications of all this but I have to tell you that Hazing is part of the Luciferian wisdom tradition. It is designed to introduce the initiate to a certain dosage of cruelty in order to begin a process in which innocence is lost and the first step on the path to wisdom is taken. It is also designed to help the initiate to "fit in" and find a deeper fraternity with his brothers and sisters.

You will be hearing a lot from the anti-hazing lobby at the moment and I invite you to visit my blog if you would like to find out a little more about the connection between your various fraternities and sororities and the worship of wisdom or Lucifer. http://blog.myspace.com/williamsheraton

We don't have to just roll over to the anti-hazing lobby. What we do is far greater than any of those people understand. If you would like more information you are welcome to contact me at my Myspace profile.

Best wishes and respect to everyone and good luck with your studies!

Kind Regards,
William Sheraton

[williamsheraton]

[Cross post deleted. See thread.]

-- The management.

Spammer?

The devil is a liar.

The devil is a liar.
I imagine this is what's on his iPod: http://www.earvolution.com/2006/06/top-twenty-five-devil-songs.asp
(LOL at the Debbie Boone reference at the end)


ETA: And Bill (btw, I like how your initials are "BS"), your posts are anything but "relevant". Fodder for entertainment, sure. But relevant? Uh, no.

Spammer?

The devil is a liar.

My thought exactly...he also is suffering from the misperception that many people have about hazing being a part of initiation, which isn't true.

Initiation is the actual ritual, enrollment, or ceremony prospective members go through to become actual members of the society. I don't know of ANY actual fraternal rituals that contain hazing in them.

Hazing could be defined as the process prospective members could endure in order to "earn" the right to participate in the initiation ceremony.

They are different, but very few people outside the system understand the distinctions between the two. And thankfully, it is the minority of chapters that engage in hazing. The downside is the outside perception is that it is rampant.

I imagine this is what's on his iPod: http://www.earvolution.com/2006/06/top-twenty-five-devil-songs.asp
(LOL at the Debbie Boone reference at the end)

My computer is now possessed. Paranormal thread?

My computer is now possessed. Paranormal thread?
LOL. Mod, we need a thread merge! ;)

And thankfully, it is the minority of chapters that engage in hazing.

Really or is this just a PR move? Is this statement based on something substantive or just wishful thinking?

LOL. Mod, we need a thread merge! ;)
Or a lock-down.

Maybe you would like to discuss my misconceptions with me :) Do not be so quick to judge as you may find that the egg will stick. As for evil... well no that is just an ignorant and uninformed point of view. It is you who is suffering from the misconception that the initiation ritual is the only process in initiation. It is also incorrect to assume that there is no hazing during initiation rituals, initiation rituals are part of the process. Do not forget that the fraternities are only the first step on the ladder of initiation and depending on where you stand on that ladder, you may yet have a lot to learn. Fraternities and sororities that don't haze are inferior in that they do less to develop the individual. There is a huge push on at the moment to eradicate hazing and this is not a good thing.

Your opinion that I know nothing about fraternities and that I am talking bs as you say is quite frankly a little presumptious :)

Kind Regards,
William Sheraton

Maybe you would like to discuss my misconceptions with me :) Do not be so quick to judge as you may find that the egg will stick. As for evil... well no that is just an ignorant and uninformed point of view. It is you who is suffering from the misconception that the initiation ritual is the only process in initiation. It is also incorrect to assume that there is no hazing during initiation rituals, initiation rituals are part of the process. Do not forget that the fraternities are only the first step on the ladder of initiation and depending on where you stand on that ladder, you may yet have a lot to learn. Fraternities and sororities that don't haze are inferior in that they do less to develop the individual. There is a huge push on at the moment to eradicate hazing and this is not a good thing.

Your opinion that I know nothing about fraternities and that I am talking bs as you say is quite frankly a little presumptious :)

Kind Regards,
William Sheraton
Nice bit on YouTube "Rev. William Sheraton"
http://youtube.com/williamsheraton
And this is even better: http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1158681606&user=freemasonrywatch
http://www.dailymotion.com/cluster/politics/tag/satanism/video/x3nlpc_lucifer-is-truth_politics

I don't know where to post this, but here is just as good a place as anywhere else I guess.

My son is a Boy Scout and the Order of the Arrow came to talk at his Boy Scout meeting because it was time for elections into it. There was a video that was played where they talked about what Order of the Arrow is and about the Ordeal that the kids go through in order to join. During the Ordeal, they must sleep alone outdoors, go a full day without talking while doing service and then there is an initiation type ceremony. They said in this video, very specifically "This is not hazing and we do not haze. This is not like a fraternity initiation with hazing..."

This bothered me on two levels because 1) Everything they do that weekend would be considered hazing by most NIC groups and 2) How dare they imply that all fraternity initiations involve hazing?

Anyway, just wanted to vent with that.

Maybe you would like to discuss my misconceptions with me :) Do not be so quick to judge as you may find that the egg will stick. As for evil... well no that is just an ignorant and uninformed point of view. It is you who is suffering from the misconception that the initiation ritual is the only process in initiation. It is also incorrect to assume that there is no hazing during initiation rituals, initiation rituals are part of the process. Do not forget that the fraternities are only the first step on the ladder of initiation and depending on where you stand on that ladder, you may yet have a lot to learn. Fraternities and sororities that don't haze are inferior in that they do less to develop the individual. There is a huge push on at the moment to eradicate hazing and this is not a good thing.

Your opinion that I know nothing about fraternities and that I am talking bs as you say is quite frankly a little presumptious :)

Kind Regards,
William Sheraton

http://www.luciferian.org/index.php?col=modluc

That was the most "say everything without saying anything" site I have seen in a while.

You've honed the whole "individual" thing quite well and it makes sense that you believe what you do about hazing based on your Luciferianism. So hazing helps with that sense of "Utopia?" That's a pleasant experience.

[Kevin]

Mr. Sheraton,

I really do appreciate you coming here to share your point of view. If you're here to initiate and participate in a civilized discussion regarding your theory, that's just fine. If you're here to promote your blog, that's spam (which will be dealt with).

First off, hazing occurs in the minority of our chapters. It is not, as far as I know, part of anyone's official ritual.

As for the "loss of innocence," and "cruelty," I invite you to substantiate your as yet baseless allegations. As to how I and many here are "Luciferians," also, feel free to substantiate that.

Do that here, without links to your blog.

[williamsheraton]

I am not makng allegations but merely pointing out a fact. The idea that to lose one's innocence is somehow something "terrible" is very prevalent in today's society and most major religions. It is this desire to protect innocence that is at the heart of the anti-hazing lobby whether those involved realise it or not. This desire is often subconscious and stems from years of religious and societal moral programming. The very fact tht you use the term allegation means that you are afraid of this accusation when really you should be standing up to outside pressure.

The problem that we have here is that colleges and universities are designed to destroy ignorance which is the opposite of knowledge and innocence which is the opposite of wisdom. If you study history you will find that it is full of people who want to stop this process and if you let them get too involved in Greek politics they will try and water down the system. You will always find these people standing up and shouting about the arts and sciences, especially religious and "politically correct" people.

So what is the point of hazing? A long time ago adepts realised that those who were likely to go to college and university tended to come from a more sheltered background. These sheltered youngsters were very innocent because they had not received the kind of hard knocks and lessons that life doles out. Basically many had not come up against the destructive forces of nature or the dark side of human nature. The institution of hazing was introduced in order to cause these youngsters to have to meet this dark side face to face. It is important for those who will play a key role in society to have witnessed human cruelty full on in order to better know themselves and others. Initially these systems were only introduced to form the future elite but eventually other copy cat fraternities were born and this developed into what is known today as the Greek system. Hazing destroys a certain innocence within the individual which is why some feeble individuals find it so traumatizing. We must not however allow the weak to dictate to the strong in this case as we are talking about the development of wisdom and knowledge and even statecraft.

Kind Regards,
William

[Kevin]

Interesting stuff William. Interesting, but there are other, more widely accepted historical versions of the picture you're painting. Hazing in the U.S. traces back to as early as 1657. I don't think it was so much to "remove innocence" as you put it, but hazing is and was a tool to assimilate young people of various backgrounds into the university system, build loyalty, teach respect and hierarchy, etc.

I wouldn't say that it's being removed is purely a "politically correct" move, but rather a response to the fact that hazing accidents, injuries and deaths create monetary liability. Recent legislative endeavors have also rendered hazing criminal in many cases.

As for the word "allege," I'm a law student at the moment. The words I choose are probably not those a "normal" human being would choose.

I'd like to hear more about the Luciferians. Are you saying that academia, and through it, the greek system is satanic? You can't just go around saying Luciferians are behind something without explaining who those folks are.

[Kevin]

An explanation for the mess above:

I meant to "Merge" those posts into this thread. Apparently, the "Merge" function doesn't mean merge into a thread, but rather merge into a post. So if you posted in that thread, you will find your words now attributed to Mr. Sheraton.

At any rate, I found the right function and moved the posts over here (or merged them or whatever).

So my apologies, I hope you all can make sense of things.

[williamsheraton]

I apologise for misunderstanding you.

That's interesting that you have records showing that hazing was already practiced in 1657. How many fraternities were there back then? I guess that the percentage of fraternities that practiced hazing at the time must have been significantly higher back then no? ;)

I am fully aware of all the functions of hazing including it's function in fostering loyalty, teaching respect and hierarchy, etc. All of these things are necessary for a civilisation like ours to flourish and progress.

Hazing actually goes right back to the beginnings of civilisation when man first began to discover what we call the arts and sciences. The different professions we needed for a civilisation to function were taught by what we now call the mystery schools. All the things you learn today such as law, history, maths etc. were all taught by the mystery schools in early civilisations. Along with this instruction, man also received spiritual instruction. Not the kind you get in church but real instruction into the mysteries.

Now you ask me if Universities and thus the Greek system are "Satanic". This is an interesting question. Universities are half of the modern day equivalent of the mystery schools, fraternal orders are the other half. It all really depends on what you call Satanic.

To a Luciferian darkness is ignorance and innocence. To many religions darkness is knowledge and wisdom. That is why scientists and artists don't get on very well with the Priestcraft even today where current progress in Genetics is hotly debated and artists such as Eminem and Marilyn Manson are picketed by zealots.

If you sit and think about knowledge and wisdom it can get quite interesting. Absolute wisdom and knowledge is absolute lack of innocence and ignorance. Therefore to achieve these two things absolutely you would need to learn everything that is possible and to have absolutely every experience that is possible. Of course this is impossible. What is not impossible is to currently strive to gain wisdom and knowledge through experience and learning. Now weak people are afraid of wisdom because they are afraid of the unknown and new experiences. The snake of wisdom is constantly labouring to destroy the lamb of innocence. Strong humans beings are wired to enjoy the destruction of innocence either their own or others. Weak and fearful humans are afraid of this force and invent all sorts of righteous dogmas in order to have an excuse to combat it and maintain as many humans as possible in a state of ignorance and innocence. The house arrest of Gallileo is a good example of this.

So... Is wisdom dark because it seeks to destroy innocence or is innocence dark because it allows humans to be manipulated by Pontiffs and Tyrants? To the Luciferian it is innocence that represents the dark force and wisdom the light.

Human myth and tradition tells us of a lightbearer who brought the knowledge of good and evil, the arts and sciences and wisdom to man. This is the snake in the garden of Eden who inspired the line of Cain (builder of the first city) (this is symbolic by the way). In Babylonian myth the entity who brought wisdom and the arts and sciences is called Oannes or John. I don't want to pimp my blog but you can read more about it there as I don-t have the time to entirely repeat myself.

So to me, a Luciferian, Universities and the Greek system are the opposite of Satanic. But , to an informed Christian the Greek system is Satanic as are all fraternal orders that practice the wisdom or Luciferian tradition.

To finish off. Hazing is important because it allows the individual to experience what quite honestly is intensive abuse and cruelty from a group of individuals. It is unlikely that he will ever get a chance to have this experience again in life unless he joins the army or ends up in prison etc. As you mentioned before this experience also teaches him the denial of the self which is an important spiritual experience as well as helping him conform better to the institutions he is about to belong to. It is also a good idea for him to experience this as a young person because you need to be physically fit for some of the trials and tribulations.

As I said before. Don't just role over for the politically correct crowd. Think about it first. And if we have to be secret again then we will be secret. We have done it before ;)

Kind Regards,
William Sheraton :)

[Elephant Walk]

I find this discussion kind of interesting, honestly.

[Tom Earp]

I along with others are not really sure about what you are even talking about?

First off you typo worse than I do and that is because of physical problems not intelligence.

Evidently, you have no clue about Social Greek Organizations when you refer to the date of 1657 if that was what your refering to.

If I am guessing, you are full of self importance and do not have a clue of what you are talking about.

You are talking with "some" very knowledgeable people on this site.

You do not seem to be one of them.:rolleyes:

[Kevin]

I along with others are not really sure about what you are even talking about?

First off you typo worse than I do and that is because of physical problems not intelligence.

Evidently, you have no clue about Social Greek Organizations when you refer to the date of 1657 if that was what your refering to.

If I am guessing, you are full of self importance and do not have a clue of what you are talking about.

You are talking with "some" very knowledgeable people on this site.

You do not seem to be one of them.:rolleyes:

Very cromulent observations, sir!

The 1657 reference came from me. I was referring to records of hazing at Harvard college. It's well documented stuff.

At any rate, my observation is that he's trying to compare his religion, or view of a religion, that being Satanism or Luciferianism or some sort of 'ism to Greek culture. He is objecting to the removal of hazing because according to his belief system, hazing is a good thing because it helps us to grow as people, mature, become "enlightened."

I think some of his observations are probably accurate. Despite what we say these days, hazing in its many forms can be used as a great tool for team building, helping people mature, teaching respect, loyalty, etc. That said, he claims the "P.C." crowd has urged the death of hazing.

The trouble I have with this is that really, the reason our various organizations have begun to shun hazing has nothing to do with what is right or wrong. In most cases, the older ladies and gentlemen who are urging the removal of these old traditions were recipients of hazing themselves.

The truth of the matter is that it's a business decision. Our leaders understand that left to their own devices, our collegiate members would eventually cause enough bad things to happen that we'd be sued into non-existence. You can't maintain an organization with 200 chapters and maybe 40 or 50-thousand active members without taking some serious steps to make sure that everyone is safe.

We have a lot of assets, we are a big target, and in the court of public opinion, due to perceptions that we do haze and do commit dangerous acts, we're an easy target for a jury.

Our leadership has had to ask itself whether we'd prefer to have tradition or whether we'd prefer to cease to exist. Having chosen the later, here we are. That's not to say that choosing alternative programs to hazing is a choice which wasn't made because everyone thinks it's nice to be nice to the nice, I'm sure that played a role, but without the money issue, we never would have arrived at that crossroads.

We are where we are. Eventually, hazing will be a memory. The organizations which survive and thrive will have to come up with effective programming to replace those old traditions. Most large nationals have. It's only a matter of time until that's all that's left.

[jon1856]

Very cromulent observations, sir!

The 1657 reference came from me. I was referring to records of hazing at Harvard college. It's well documented stuff.

At any rate, my observation is that he's trying to compare his religion, or view of a religion, that being Satanism or Luciferianism or some sort of 'ism to Greek culture. He is objecting to the removal of hazing because according to his belief system, hazing is a good thing because it helps us to grow as people, mature, become "enlightened."

I think some of his observations are probably accurate. Despite what we say these days, hazing in its many forms can be used as a great tool for team building, helping people mature, teaching respect, loyalty, etc. That said, he claims the "P.C." crowd has urged the death of hazing.

The trouble I have with this is that really, the reason our various organizations have begun to shun hazing has nothing to do with what is right or wrong. In most cases, the older ladies and gentlemen who are urging the removal of these old traditions were recipients of hazing themselves.

The truth of the matter is that it's a business decision. Our leaders understand that left to their own devices, our collegiate members would eventually cause enough bad things to happen that we'd be sued into non-existence. You can't maintain an organization with 200 chapters and maybe 40 or 50-thousand active members without taking some serious steps to make sure that everyone is safe.

We have a lot of assets, we are a big target, and in the court of public opinion, due to perceptions that we do haze and do commit dangerous acts, we're an easy target for a jury.

Our leadership has had to ask itself whether we'd prefer to have tradition or whether we'd prefer to cease to exist. Having chosen the later, here we are. That's not to say that choosing alternative programs to hazing is a choice which wasn't made because everyone thinks it's nice to be nice to the nice, I'm sure that played a role, but without the money issue, we never would have arrived at that crossroads.

We are where we are. Eventually, hazing will be a memory. The organizations which survive and thrive will have to come up with effective programming to replace those old traditions. Most large nationals have. It's only a matter of time until that's all that's left.
Co-Sign. Very well posted and said.

[modorney]

> I think some of his observations are probably accurate. Despite what we say these days, hazing in its many forms can be used as a great tool for team building, helping people mature, teaching respect, loyalty, etc.

> The organizations which survive and thrive will have to come up with effective programming to replace those old traditions. Most large nationals have. It's only a matter of time until that's all that's left.

Well said, Kevin.

Are these guys Luciferian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaRuTwWl9I&feature=related

[NinjaPoodle]

Very cromulent observations, sir!

The 1657 reference came from me. I was referring to records of hazing at Harvard college. It's well documented stuff.

At any rate, my observation is that he's trying to compare his religion, or view of a religion, that being Satanism or Luciferianism or some sort of 'ism to Greek culture. He is objecting to the removal of hazing because according to his belief system, hazing is a good thing because it helps us to grow as people, mature, become "enlightened."

I think some of his observations are probably accurate. Despite what we say these days, hazing in its many forms can be used as a great tool for team building, helping people mature, teaching respect, loyalty, etc. That said, he claims the "P.C." crowd has urged the death of hazing.

The trouble I have with this is that really, the reason our various organizations have begun to shun hazing has nothing to do with what is right or wrong. In most cases, the older ladies and gentlemen who are urging the removal of these old traditions were recipients of hazing themselves.

The truth of the matter is that it's a business decision. Our leaders understand that left to their own devices, our collegiate members would eventually cause enough bad things to happen that we'd be sued into non-existence. You can't maintain an organization with 200 chapters and maybe 40 or 50-thousand active members without taking some serious steps to make sure that everyone is safe.

We have a lot of assets, we are a big target, and in the court of public opinion, due to perceptions that we do haze and do commit dangerous acts, we're an easy target for a jury.

Our leadership has had to ask itself whether we'd prefer to have tradition or whether we'd prefer to cease to exist. Having chosen the later, here we are. That's not to say that choosing alternative programs to hazing is a choice which wasn't made because everyone thinks it's nice to be nice to the nice, I'm sure that played a role, but without the money issue, we never would have arrived at that crossroads.

We are where we are. Eventually, hazing will be a memory. The organizations which survive and thrive will have to come up with effective programming to replace those old traditions. Most large nationals have. It's only a matter of time until that's all that's left.

Very well stated and very good point (bolded).

[williamsheraton]

I understand your point of view that it s all about money. Personally I don't agree 100% although I can see some truth in what you are saying. It s a bit like saying we are in Afghanistan for oil alone.

Anyway thanks for letting me have my say. For those of you who think I'm nuts or full of bs, don't be too sure of yourselves ;) Delve delve delve and who knows what you may find out...

Kind Regards,
William

[goodie2shoe]

Not to burst everyone's perfect little bubble, but the OP is at least half correct The F.H.C. Society and Phi Beta Kappa (the first two secret societies @ a college) were founded, so that they could talk about issues that weren't allowed to be discussed on campus. The students would meet at taverns to talk about controversial topics. They frequently had to move their meeting place as if they were caught by faculty they would have been kicked out of the college.

Unlike today, where being apart of a sorority or fraternity is about the prestige and is based in some places on how much your family makes, the clothes you wear, and where you vacation.

Secret Societies went against what society believed was acceptable which was why they were underground and "secret societies". To say that the organizations stand for the same thing as when they were founded is definently not realistic. You didn't have rush parties way back when you got a letter inviting you to join the organization the sisters picked you. Sisters didn't have to go around and say "rush ABC."

... I've never found any information to suggest that the secret societies hazed new members when they were founded, but I wouldn't be shocked if I ever came across stories like that, although things were alot more secretive back then and people didn't talk about what happened behind closed doors.

[PhiGam]

I disagree about hazing one day being a memory. It will always exist, at least in the south because alumni actually WILL cut off funding if the fraternity changes rituals or traditions.

[jon1856]

I disagree about hazing one day being a memory. It will always exist, at least in the south because alumni actually WILL cut off funding if the fraternity changes rituals or traditions.
Perhaps that maybe the case.
But which would be worse: The threat of some Alumni cutting off "funding" or National and/or school shutting them down????

[Kevin]

I disagree about hazing one day being a memory. It will always exist, at least in the south because alumni actually WILL cut off funding if the fraternity changes rituals or traditions.

The thing is -- most organizations have already started to take that ability away from alumni. For large, established chapters, alumni donations aren't turned around and used immediately. Often, for tax reasons, that money goes into a 501(c)(3) trust which is overseen by either your national, or a board of alumni directors with oversight from national. I'm working on organizing one such fund for my chapter right now. It's good stuff.

Even if your national doesn't control the funds in your foundation, the alumni who run the board still have a fiduciary duty as to the use of those funds. Refusing to disburse funds because the chapter refuses to engage in illegal activities, I'm afraid is not a valid use of that authority. In fact, if what you say came to pass, that sort of behavior on the alums' part could actually be enough for a plaintiff to reach them personally.

Now you can go underground or whatever, but how long would something like that be viable?

[PhiGam]

Perhaps that maybe the case.
But which would be worse: The threat of some Alumni cutting off "funding" or National and/or school shutting them down????
You're assuming that one of these will always happen but usually neither one happens.

[PhiGam]

The thing is -- most organizations have already started to take that ability away from alumni. For large, established chapters, alumni donations aren't turned around and used immediately. Often, for tax reasons, that money goes into a 501(c)(3) trust which is overseen by either your national, or a board of alumni directors with oversight from national. I'm working on organizing one such fund for my chapter right now. It's good stuff.

Even if your national doesn't control the funds in your foundation, the alumni who run the board still have a fiduciary duty as to the use of those funds. Refusing to disburse funds because the chapter refuses to engage in illegal activities, I'm afraid is not a valid use of that authority. In fact, if what you say came to pass, that sort of behavior on the alums' part could actually be enough for a plaintiff to reach them personally.

Now you can go underground or whatever, but how long would something like that be viable?
I just don't see southern fraternities giving away that power to nationals, most of us do not care for nationals.

[Elephant Walk]

I just don't see southern fraternities giving away that power to nationals, most of us do not care for nationals.

And most of our alumni hate nationals. We have very few that give to the national organization and hundreds that give to the fraternity itself.

[jon1856]

You're assuming that one of these will always happen but usually neither one happens.
Have you seen the postings in RM section?
Seems as if closing do take place.
And those are the ones that are posted here.

[jon1856]

I really do not know just who is more correct here.
Or is it some combination?
The thing is -- most organizations have already started to take that ability away from alumni. For large, established chapters, alumni donations aren't turned around and used immediately. Often, for tax reasons, that money goes into a 501(c)(3) trust which is overseen by either your national, or a board of alumni directors with oversight from national. I'm working on organizing one such fund for my chapter right now. It's good stuff.

Even if your national doesn't control the funds in your foundation, the alumni who run the board still have a fiduciary duty as to the use of those funds. Refusing to disburse funds because the chapter refuses to engage in illegal activities, I'm afraid is not a valid use of that authority. In fact, if what you say came to pass, that sort of behavior on the alums' part could actually be enough for a plaintiff to reach them personally.

Now you can go underground or whatever, but how long would something like that be viable?

I just don't see southern fraternities giving away that power to nationals, most of us do not care for nationals.

And most of our alumni hate nationals. We have very few that give to the national organization and hundreds that give to the fraternity itself.

[Elephant Walk]

Have you seen the postings in RM section?
Seems as if closing so take place.
And those are the ones that are posted here.

At schools I've never heard of, by fraternities I've rarely heard of.

[PhiGam]

At schools I've never heard of, by fraternities I've rarely heard of.
Exactly... ATO got booted here after an entire decade of being complete morons, it takes a lot for a good fraternity to get in trouble here. Even then its usually just a clean out.

[jon1856]

At schools I've never heard of, by fraternities I've rarely heard of.
EW, that is a rather easy comment to say when, to the best of my knowledge, you have yet to indicate where you go to school and just what GLO you are a member of.
And if you have, I am sorry that I forgot and please remind me.
After all, I can say that when I was in school, there were many schools I never heard of at that time and many GLO's that I never heard of either. And many chapters of my own Fraternity that I never had any dealings with.
And just because I never heard of them, I guess nothing ever happened there.
However, as I was active in Fraternal activities that occurred outside of my Chapter, I became aware of matters going on elsewhere.
And on the other hand there were activities that happened on my rather small campus, including within the Greek system, that I had no knowledge of until years later.

[Elephant Walk]

EW, that is a rather easy comment to say when, to the best of my knowledge, you have yet to indicate where you go to school and just what GLO you are a member of.

I go to the University of Arkansas.

I've indicated this repetitively.

You know, show me when DKE or SAE at Alabama get busted. Phi Delt or Sigma Nu at Ole Miss. DKE at Yale. Strong chapters. I'm not saying any of these haze though I have a good idea, but show me a strong chapter that nationals even thinks of threatening. Some of these chapters would have to sacrifice three pledges on the front steps of the nationals building to be thought about bringing up.

[jon1856]

I go to the University of Arkansas.

I've indicated this repetitively.

You know, show me when DKE or SAE at Alabama get busted. Phi Delt or Sigma Nu at Ole Miss. DKE at Yale. Strong chapters. I'm not saying any of these haze though I have a good idea, but show me a strong chapter that nationals even thinks of threatening. Some of these chapters would have to sacrifice three pledges on the front steps of the nationals building to be thought about bringing up.
When I have the time to look around , I will.
I do ask that you look around for evidence of what you said as well.

[macallan25]

Bro, I gotta agree with them on this.

You are right, chapters do get shut down in the South, sure.......but you have to take into account which chapters.

I can almost promise you that there are some chapters at quite a few different schools in Texas and the Southeast that will never be shut down, barring a complete and utter catastrophe or some kind of insanely serious circumstance. I could tell you things that I have seen and witnessed that would get a chapter in other places shut down without a second thought........but it really isn't appropriate to do that on an open message board.

[PhiGam]

Bro, I gotta agree with them on this.

You are right, chapters do get shut down in the South, sure.......but you have to take into account which chapters.

I can almost promise you that there are some chapters at quite a few different schools in Texas and the Southeast that will never be shut down, barring a complete and utter catastrophe or some kind of insanely serious circumstance. I could tell you things that I have seen and witnessed that would get a chapter in other places shut down without a second thought........but it really isn't appropriate to do that on an open message board.
Exactly... it used to be ATO here until last year when one of their powerful alumni's son (a hemophiliac) was forced to crawl across broken glass and got cut up really bad. Daddy saw it and was unhappy and Daddy happened to be having lunch with the University President (a Phi Delt) later that day. Whats funny is they are underground and will be back on campus either next year or the year after.

Major chapters will not be touched by their nationals down here.

[jon1856]

Bro, I gotta agree with them on this.

You are right, chapters do get shut down in the South, sure.......but you have to take into account which chapters.

I can almost promise you that there are some chapters at quite a few different schools in Texas and the Southeast that will never be shut down, barring a complete and utter catastrophe or some kind of insanely serious circumstance. I could tell you things that I have seen and witnessed that would get a chapter in other places shut down without a second thought........but it really isn't appropriate to do that on an open message board.
Brother, I am not even going to try nor do I even wish to fight with you about this one. However please note my high-lights of yours and note following quote from another poster.
From from my POV, experience etal , if something keeps going on at some point in time and place S**t happens. And when that happens, no one is going to be around to hold hands. More likely they will be pointing with one hand while trying to hold their nose and wallet at the same time.
And nothing is as secret as a college student may think it is.

Exactly... it used to be ATO here until last year when one of their powerful alumni's son (a hemophiliac) was forced to crawl across broken glass and got cut up really bad. Daddy saw it and was unhappy and Daddy happened to be having lunch with the University President (a Phi Delt) later that day. Whats funny is they are underground and will be back on campus either next year or the year after.

Major chapters will not be touched by their nationals down here.

[macallan25]

Brother, I am not going even try nor do I even wish to fight with you about it one. However please note my high-lights of yours and note following quote from another poster.
From from my POV, experience etal , if something keeps going at some point in time and place S**t happens. And when that happens, no one is going to be around to hold hands.
And nothing is as secret as a college student may think it is.

No you're right, nothing is as secret as we all think.......that's what makes it even more incredible that nothing happens. Everyone knows but some of the chapters in question incur zero consequences.

The story PhiGam posted is a pretty good example of how much it takes to bring the house down, in my opinion. I mean....a hemophiliac getting cut up badly could spell death if I'm not mistaken......pretty serious.

[PhiGam]

Jon... the thing is that it is NOT secret at all. I can tell you when every fraternity at FSU's hell week is, I have seen pledges running around campus at 3am in sharps, I have seen pledges lined up doing push ups in the middle of campus. Every sorority girl has has received a lovely 2am serenade from an entire pledge class. Hazing is, for the most part, accepted here so long as nothing happens that seriously endangers the life of a pledge.
Just going to reiterate that my chapter does not haze though, we are the only one.

[PhiGam]

From the article about Pike's hazing allegations at UT:
Wednesday night, 10News approached several fraternity members, including those belonging to fraternities other than Pike, but no one wanted to comment.

However, some other students on campus had plenty to say.

"I just thought, I mean, that's pretty outrageous," said Kyle Gilson, a UT freshman. "I couldn't see getting myself in that kind of situation. I don't really understand why people do, so it was pretty shocking."

[bowsandtoes]

I really don't see how anything that a person willingly wants to do can be considered hazing.

I could construe the legal definition to say that my professors are hazing me by assigning papers.

[DSTCHAOS]

I could construe the legal definition to say that my professors are hazing me by assigning papers.

:)

Only if you are supposedly in pursuit of the organization known as "students without Fs." Plus, the papers your professors assign you are course requirements and even rites of passage that are well documented, just like the formal requirements and rites of passage for your fraternity are.

It is also a good thing that consent is not a legal defense because that angle has been attempted over and over again throughout the years. So the laws have been updated accordingly.

[Elephant Walk]

I really don't see how anything that a person willingly wants to do can be considered hazing.

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

[Tom Earp]

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?:o:rolleyes:

[Elephant Walk]

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?:o:rolleyes:

Absolutely as long as he wants to join the organization.

If he doesn't want to join it, no one's forcing him to.

[DSTCHAOS]

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle. :)

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

[jon1856]

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle. :)

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

I agree. I was also thinking along the lines of:
"Well Officer, they really wanted me to kill them. Really wanted me to drive both drunk and stoned. At over 200 mph through school and hospital zones. At high Noon. On the opposite side of the road. In reverse. And I agreed with him that I should so. So I am free to go, correct?"
And could I please have all of my weapons back? I am in a bit of a rush to get to my Pledge meeting.:D;)

[bowsandtoes]

Almost every fraternity related death that I've heard of or read about was the result of abusive drinking. That said, we need have any character-building activities that involve drinking. I really don't think someone is going to 'flat line' from being pushed outside of their comfort level by activities that are comparable to their sports practice in high school.

The very idea that someone can be arrested for allowing you to do something you want to do seems down right fascist. Under the logic of the current hazing laws pledges shouldn't be allowed to compete in intramurals, seeings as the running would put them under physical stress in the name of the fraternity.

[DSTCHAOS]

The majority of the sorority and fraternity related injuries and deaths that I'm talking about have nothing to do with abusive drinking.

But the rest of this is redundant because the other threads have talked the "choice" that hazing victims perceive that they have even in binge drinking incidents. Consent makes sense in theory so a lot of people understand where you are coming from, bowsandtoes, but consent doesn't operate the same way in practice.

[Little32]

And most of our alumni hate nationals. We have very few that give to the national organization and hundreds that give to the fraternity itself.


Why don't you secede? :cool:

[Elephant Walk]

Why don't you secede? :cool:

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.

[Little32]

Interesting, thinking of changing the name and everything? Are they a part of one of the ones that has a deep southern legacy. Would they want to lose that?

[Elephant Walk]

Interesting, thinking of changing the name and everything? Are they a part of one of the ones that has a deep southern legacy. Would they want to lose that?

We've discussed this before. Repeatedly. Changing the name wouldn't be too difficult. The chapter I mentioned before also has been changing it's ritual for awhile bit by bit in so that it already does not reflect nationals. It's alumni from the last 30 years don't know the nationals ritual.

...if they were part of nationals with a deep southern legacy...why would it matter? What does nationals have to do with it? Nationals are inconsequential. It's the chapter that matters. Nationals is only good for insurance and for some chapters, even that may become economically unimportant.

[PhiGam]

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.
I don't think my nationals are bad enough to secede from. It wouldn't be worth losing the name. We have one guy that nobody likes that comes around once a semester, thats it.

[Little32]

[QUOTE=Elephant Walk;1631250]
...if they were part of nationals with a deep southern legacy...why would it matter? What does nationals have to do with it? Nationals are inconsequential. It's the chapter that matters. QUOTE]

That's an interesting perspective. Not so with my org. For us, our national legacy and history is of great significance as our name. We would not readily let that go.

[Elephant Walk]

I realize this.

But what does "national legacy" mean? It's not you. It's not even your chapter. It seems something to not have pride in, as it's not yours.

[Little32]

Are you proud to be an American (assuming that you are American--though it seems that I have read something that you wrote which suggests otherwise, at least I think that was you); or are you proud to be insert your state here. Would being a insert the name of your state here even mean the same thing outside of the context of an American nation.

Similiarly, would your chapter be what it is without the national organization? My chapter would not. We would not exist without the initiative of the national body to expand, and the national body would not have existed without the vision of our founders.

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

[DSTCHAOS]

Are you proud to be an American (assuming that you are American--though it seems that I have read something that you wrote which suggests otherwise, at least I think that was you); or are you proud to be insert your state here. Would being a insert the name of your state here even mean the same thing outside of the context of an American nation.

Similiarly, would your chapter be what it is without the national organization? My chapter would not. We would not exist without the initiative of the national body to expand, and the national body would not have existed without the vision of our founders.

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

:) Say that!

Our sororities supercede all chapters and individuals but yet they are "ours."

[bowsandtoes]

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

You make good points, but imagine a different scenario from one of our prospectives. You love your chapter and are proud of your national organization. But one year at a national meeting the big brass reveal that the organization is taking a new direction, one of which you might now approve. Your protests are not enough to overrule the decision and nationals continues down a path of which you do not approve. What do you do?

The only real choices you have are to a) secede and go local or b) continue on with nationals, but ignore them for the most part and distance yourselves. We're seeing chapters take option b more and more frequently as various fraternities such as Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, and SAE implement programs to reform chapters. Its happening slowly but I think in the next 20 years you will see a majority of chapters either go local or more likely, be shut down. That, or the nationals will bend to alumni pressure and stop forcing these programs on chapters.

[jon1856]

You make good points, but imagine a different scenario from one of our prospectives. You love your chapter and are proud of your national organization. But one year at a national meeting the big brass reveal that the organization is taking a new direction, one of which you might now approve. Your protests are not enough to overrule the decision and nationals continues down a path of which you do not approve. What do you do?

The only real choices you have are to a) secede and go local or b) continue on with nationals, but ignore them for the most part and distance yourselves. We're seeing chapters take option b more and more frequently as various fraternities such as Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, and SAE implement programs to reform chapters. Its happening slowly but I think in the next 20 years you will see a majority of chapters either go local or more likely, be shut down. That, or the nationals will bend to alumni pressure and stop forcing these programs on chapters.
If that is what you really think-OK.:confused::eek:

[Little32]

@ bows: I do understand that perspective to an extent (I am young in my organization), and I think that most organizations have this sort of internal conflict happening at any given moment.

I don't, however, think that any chapter in my sorority would withdraw rather than staying and continuing to advocate for change within the org. (Here, I am talking about any sort of change, not just change related to pledging/hazing/MIP.)

I think that there is a fundamental difference in terms of perception of chapter relationship to national (or in our case international is correct) body. There is no Theta Omega chapter without Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. At least that is my understanding.

[DSTCHAOS]

What do you do?

Undergraduate chapters get over it.

When I was an undergad, I would've never thought it appropriate for a chapter to attempt to override the national organization. One major reason why I joined Delta was because I have love for Delta as a national entity. It is through my chapter that I was able to reach Delta and initially bond with Sorors. However, to remove Delta just because we disagree with something is ridiculous as far as BGLOs in general are concerned. Attempting to become a local would definitely not be received well. LOL. Not at all.

[jon1856]

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.
So one's Chapter would go from being part of a National Group Organization to being a small, local, eating and drinking club with a side order of let us ignore all rules, laws, and codes of conduct?
And if I were thinking of going to your school (which BTB was not and never has been on my radar) just what would make me interested in even talking to you?

And please do not even bring to the table anything about money.
Perhaps that is not fair as most likely that is what is going to be needed to cover
bills for damages and law suits.

[gee_ess]

In regards to Elephant Walk's take on fraternities at the U of A, I have to say I doubt very seriously any U of A alumna would support going away from their national group. There is too much tradition and name recognition, financial support, etc tied up in those groups. Once SAE chose to disaffiliate with national (just an example) the SAE alums would withdraw support. I don't think SAE wants to lose, for example,the CEO of Alltel's financial support and I can almost guarantee someone like that would not support the break.

Also, on the note of strong southern chapters being pulled. The Sigma Nu chapter at the U of A was strong for many years and after a series of incidents were pulled from campus. They are back now and in a new house, but were definitely pulled. They have a strong and influential alum base but were still pulled - it can happen.

[Kevin]

I'm not sure how influential our chapters at LSU, Mississippi State and Vanderbilt were, but all have been recently booted and recolonized.

Same goes for our Kansas chapter which has been in existence (and was historically a really good house) for a long time. I really can't see alumni bases full of politicians and the leaders of our business, legal and medical fields supporting and contributing to a withdrawal from their national just so their chapter could continue to participate in illegal activities.

I may be off base here, but that whole argument just doesn't sound at all plausible to me.

[bowsandtoes]

Rather than quote anyone I'll just try to give a general reply. The changes I'm talking about for the most part go beyond hazing, alcohol, etc. With Sig Ep the Balanced Man program has completely change the entire structure of chapters. They do things that we fervently do not agree with. However, as you mentioned we are still deeply tied to the history of Sig Ep, both at our school and nationally. In this case, it is nationals that is breaking away from that tradition and history. Ideally, I wouldn't want to break away from nationals or have nationals come down on us, I was just remarking that's the direction things seem to be headed over the past several years.

I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.

[jon1856]

I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.
But one that gets continued by the deeds, words, activities and actions of a few.:o:(:mad:

[bowsandtoes]

But one that gets continued by the deeds, words, activities and actions of a few.:o:(:mad:

Perhaps, but I don't see a few bad apples as justification to start hacking off branches.







By the way, that metaphor worked perfect.

[Elephant Walk]

In regards to Elephant Walk's take on fraternities at the U of A, I have to say I doubt very seriously any U of A alumna would support going away from their national group. There is too much tradition and name recognition, financial support, etc tied up in those groups. Once SAE chose to disaffiliate with national (just an example) the SAE alums would withdraw support. I don't think SAE wants to lose, for example,the CEO of Alltel's financial support and I can almost guarantee someone like that would not support the break.
You would be very, very surprised with what I know, then. There have been secession feelings within many chapters at UofA. Many don't have the means to do it, but some will and have the alumni supporting them. It will be years and years before it happens, but it is happening. Regardless, I plainly stated that it's not an option on this campus....yet.

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?p=1631419#post1631419)
I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.


From a sorority standpoint, I do think that we can relate to this...National(along with panhellenic) made many, many changes in procedures, rituals, etc several years back (to combat hazing,reduce chapter liability, focus on philanthropy, move away from the Barbie image). And there was quite a bit of backlash. Older members reacted and "rebelled" against the changes (read some of the posts on BAck in the Day thread posted elsewhere). Women felt that "they" were telling us what and how to run the chapters.
By now, 2008, those changes are firmly implemented and chapters are moving in the direction national is pointing. It sounds like this is what fraternities are feeling...and maybe some alumna are not as supportive (at some chapters) as the sorority advisors, etc were in regards to this because there seems to be fewer adults who interact with fraternitiy chapters than sororities? I can totally understand both sides and have to say (that with a few exceptions) the changes were for the better and npc sororities are stronger and better than ever as a result.

EW - We may have to agree to disagree, I would bet the farm that none of the strong houses at U of A ever leaves their national group willingly... BTW- are you from Arkansas originally or from out of state?

[Elephant Walk]

EW - We may have to agree to disagree, I would bet the farm that none of the strong houses at U of A ever leaves their national group willingly... BTW- are you from Arkansas originally or from out of state?
From here. Sort of near where you grew up, actually (before you think I'm creepy you said you were from the Heights in West Little Rock in a previous post)

[violetpretty]

The very idea that someone can be arrested for allowing you to do something you want to do seems down right fascist. Under the logic of the current hazing laws pledges shouldn't be allowed to compete in intramurals, seeings as the running would put them under physical stress in the name of the fraternity.

The difference is whether the activity is a requirement to become part of the group. Allowing pledges to sign up to participate in intramurals isn't something that is a requirement for initiation, so it's not hazing. If you tell your pledges that they must do X# of pushups as a condition of membership (or as a condition of not getting yelled at), that is hazing, even if all of the pledges agree to do it.

[jon1856]

You would be very, very surprised with what I know, then. There have been secession feelings within many chapters at UofA. Many don't have the means to do it, but some will and have the alumni supporting them. It will be years and years before it happens, but it is happening. Regardless, I plainly stated that it's not an option on this campus....yet.
I think we all would be very surprised at what you know about ALL the different chapters at your school.
And just how one person would know everything and anything about chapters not his own.
So, since you put it out there in your own posting, show us.

[DSTCHAOS]

Spies?
Pillow Talk?
Gossipy pals?

Stuff happens.

Many people know stuff about various chapters of their own or of other GLOs through casual conversation and other unofficial and even offical means of accessing info.

[jon1856]

EW-Still waiting for your answer to this:
So one's Chapter would go from being part of a National Group Organization to being a small, local, eating and drinking club with a side order of let us ignore all rules, laws, and codes of conduct?
And if I were thinking of going to your school (which BTB was not and never has been on my radar) just what would make me interested in even talking to you?

And please do not even bring to the table anything about money.
Perhaps that is not fair as most likely that is what is going to be needed to cover
bills for damages and law suits.

True, to a point DSTCHAOS. However I would rather hear EW's confession, umm explanation to it. As his posting seems to indicate a great deal more.
Or is it, the posting, just puffing up like a peacock or blow-fish???
Spies?
Pillow Talk?
Gossipy pals?

Stuff happens.

Many people know stuff about various chapters of their own or of other GLOs through casual conversation and other unofficial and even offical means of accessing info.

[33girl]

From a sorority standpoint, I do think that we can relate to this...National(along with panhellenic) made many, many changes in procedures, rituals, etc several years back (to combat hazing,reduce chapter liability, focus on philanthropy, move away from the Barbie image). And there was quite a bit of backlash. Older members reacted and "rebelled" against the changes (read some of the posts on BAck in the Day thread posted elsewhere). Women felt that "they" were telling us what and how to run the chapters.
By now, 2008, those changes are firmly implemented and chapters are moving in the direction national is pointing.

Weeeellllll.....

I don't think that the "big chapters who bring lots of $$ into nationals get away with more" concept is entirely a fraternity concept, I'll put it that way.

Plus I don't think I've ever heard any national say "move away from the Barbie image." If that's the image that keeps your chapter bringing in members and $$, you're not going to have a chapter consultant come in and tell you to pledge a bunch of butter-face girls.

[Elephant Walk]

So one's Chapter would go from being part of a National Group Organization to being a small, local, eating and drinking club with a side order of let us ignore all rules, laws, and codes of conduct?
And if I were thinking of going to your school (which BTB was not and never has been on my radar) just what would make me interested in even talking to you?

And please do not even bring to the table anything about money.
Perhaps that is not fair as most likely that is what is going to be needed to cover
bills for damages and law suits.
Didn't see this one Jon... I don't know if I even knew it was directed at me?

You're really missing the point of why someone doesn't like nationals. Very much so missing the point. It is not so much about hazing (very little of it is...seeing as nationals rarely touch good chapters). That's very shortsighted and ignorant. It's about the new programs nationals puts in place. Crap like the Balanced Man is the worst thing to hit chapters. 8 week pledgeships. Sending nationals that complain about the lack of diversity in the chapter. Riding against the traditional conservatism of the chapter. It's not about hazing, drinking, and not caring about law. It's about the liberal/illogical progression of nationals. The pressure the nationals puts on for this sort of thing is obnoxious.

[DSTCHAOS]

True, to a point DSTCHAOS. However I would rather hear EW's confession, umm explanation to it. As his posting seems to indicate a great deal more.
Or is it, the posting, just puffing up like a peacock or blow-fish???

It's not like you can follow-up on his investigative reporting. :p Or can you?

[jon1856]

Didn't see this one Jon... I don't know if I even knew it was directed at me?

You're really missing the point of why someone doesn't like nationals. Very much so missing the point. It is not so much about hazing (very little of it is...seeing as nationals rarely touch good chapters). That's very shortsighted and ignorant. It's about the new programs nationals puts in place. Crap like the Balanced Man is the worst thing to hit chapters. 8 week pledge-ships. Sending nationals that complain about the lack of diversity in the chapter. Riding against the traditional conservatism of the chapter. It's not about hazing, drinking, and not caring about law. It's about the liberal/illogical progression of nationals. The pressure the nationals puts on for this sort of thing is obnoxious.
As if was my question to you, I think it still worth a direct answer.
If I was going through rush tom mow; how would you explain your actions.
If I was going through rush next year, how would you explain your actions.
And if had just pledged, how would you explain your actions.

Because, as I posted, all I would see is a small, local drinking and eating club.
And I could hang out at bars,restaurants and clubs for that.
And all of them have rules and regulations that they have to follow.
And you post about your problems with hazing rules as much, if not more, than other policies. Which I why I asked you and posted about what seem to be a wish to have a group with no rules.

[jon1856]

It's not like you can follow-up on his investigative reporting. :p Or can you?
:):rolleyes:;)

[gee_ess]

Weeeellllll.....

I don't think that the "big chapters who bring lots of $$ into nationals get away with more" concept is entirely a fraternity concept, I'll put it that way.

Plus I don't think I've ever heard any national say "move away from the Barbie image." If that's the image that keeps your chapter bringing in members and $$, you're not going to have a chapter consultant come in and tell you to pledge a bunch of butter-face girls.


Nor do I think that any national said literally, "let's move away from the Barbie image." I was trying to make the point that the emphasis on leadership, post college activities, philanthropy, etc (things that we have always had as a part of our heritage) were given more of a front seat in the past decade to give credence to the sorority experience.

I was really just trying to say, that it seems the fraternities are experiencing what sororities experienced some 15 - 20(?) years ago, and those of us who remember those changes, remember that chapters struggled with the feeling of heavy handedness -no matter how well intentioned, BUT it was the right move to make.

[Tom Earp]

Something disturbs me when I hear about Chapters bolting from thier Nationals and wonder why? Because they have rules to follow that are changed because of all the hazing that has taken place and the hue and cry to correct it along with all of the States who are invoking laws because of the hazing.

I do not care if it is a female or male GLO and to say male GLOs are more into it is calling wolf.

Since I only know LXAs even though I have read two others, no where did I see any hazing that was listed in them.

Again, I do not know how other GLOs work, but any changes in LXA have to be approved by the members at our National conferences, not by the Officers at HQs.

If your GLO does not have this, then I think you should ask why and have it changed. Of course, it is always easier to blame HQ and not the individuals themselves.

[Elephant Walk]

As if was my question to you, I think it still worth a direct answer.
If I was going through rush tom mow; how would you explain your actions.
If I was going through rush next year, how would you explain your actions.
And if had just pledged, how would you explain your actions.
Explain what actions? And why do the pledges/rushees care about the choice to go local or not? You're not making a whole lot of sense. If you're a pledge/rushee why would I have to explain anything to you? You're not a brother.

Because, as I posted, all I would see is a small, local drinking and eating club.
And I could hang out at bars,restaurants and clubs for that.
Wow. Way too insult all the local GLO's on this board. Try telling them that.

And all of them have rules and regulations that they have to follow.
And you post about your problems with hazing rules as much, if not more, than other policies. Which I why I asked you and posted about what seem to be a wish to have a group with no rules.
How do you figure this one, sportsfan?

I don't get where you're coming up with "no rules". We have plenty of rules in the chapter, that were created by the chapter. Nationals hands down rules because they're busy jerking themselves off to the belief of inclusion and how many people a fraternity pledges so they can get more money and expand, creating more shitty chapters. The only good thing Nationals gives us is insurance.

[LaneSig]

Explain what actions? And why do the pledges/rushees care about the choice to go local or not? You're not making a whole lot of sense. If you're a pledge/rushee why would I have to explain anything to you? You're not a brother.


So, you don't think it is fair to let the rushees/pledges know: "Hey, you thought you were going to join the national fraternity, Alpha Beta, but later this semester we are going to disaffiliate and become a local."

As much as the rushee might like the guys in the chapter, what if they don't want to join a local?

ETA: This is a sincere question, not trying to be snarky.

[Kevin]

So, you don't think it is fair to let the rushees/pledges know: "Hey, you thought you were going to join the national fraternity, Alpha Beta, but later this semester we are going to disaffiliate and become a local."

As much as the rushee might like the guys in the chapter, what if they don't want to join a local?

ETA: This is a sincere question, not trying to be snarky.

Aside from that, what University is going to stand by and allow an organization to split away from its HQ so that it may haze and ignore sound risk management policy?

-- Don't think so. You won't be a part of IFC and the University will refuse to affiliate with you. Good luck finding new members who want to be a part of that tradition -- especially when the national you split away from recolonizes on that campus.

[DSTCHAOS]

Something disturbs me when I hear about Chapters bolting from thier Nationals and wonder why? Because they have rules to follow that are changed because of all the hazing that has taken place and the hue and cry to correct it along with all of the States who are invoking laws because of the hazing.

I do not care if it is a female or male GLO and to say male GLOs are more into it is calling wolf.

Since I only know LXAs even though I have read two others, no where did I see any hazing that was listed in them.

Again, I do not know how other GLOs work, but any changes in LXA have to be approved by the members at our National conferences, not by the Officers at HQs.

If your GLO does not have this, then I think you should ask why and have it changed. Of course, it is always easier to blame HQ and not the individuals themselves.

Great post! :)

[DSTCHAOS]

So, you don't think it is fair to let the rushees/pledges know: "Hey, you thought you were going to join the national fraternity, Alpha Beta, but later this semester we are going to disaffiliate and become a local."

As much as the rushee might like the guys in the chapter, what if they don't want to join a local?

ETA: This is a sincere question, not trying to be snarky.

Oh, that's an excellent question. I think they will have some complaints (and perhaps more) on their hands if they rush as XYZ knowing that they are working toward disaffiliating and going local.

I see depledging and even some bruised eyes resulting from not being forthcoming with this info.

[DSTCHAOS]

:):rolleyes:;)

Am I the only one who is a little "nervous" over this discussion and its implications? ;)

[33girl]

Aside from that, what University is going to stand by and allow an organization to split away from its HQ so that it may haze and ignore sound risk management policy?


The University of the South.

Penn State University.

And they didn't break away so they could haze, they broke away because they disagreed w/ their nationals' alcohol free policies. Remember that whole deal about how all fraternities were going to be dry by 2000? Not so much.

EW is saying that he feels that 1) his HQ isn't letting his chapter pick members in the way that they want 2) the program they have in place to educate those members is unsound and weakens the chapter. That's not about alcohol or hazing. I would feel the same way if (example) ASA passed a policy that said we were going to concentrate on grades and had to take any rushee that had a 3.75 or above.

[33girl]

So, you don't think it is fair to let the rushees/pledges know: "Hey, you thought you were going to join the national fraternity, Alpha Beta, but later this semester we are going to disaffiliate and become a local."

As much as the rushee might like the guys in the chapter, what if they don't want to join a local?

ETA: This is a sincere question, not trying to be snarky.

From all his posts, the guys that join his chapter are going to care less about the national networking, the national advantages etc. They are joining the EW's School Beta Betas, not the Beta Betas of EW's School.

[SWTXBelle]

Hmmm ... just wondering - who owns the house? I'm very familiar with what happens to breakaway church buildings in the ECUSA - and I'd be very surprised if there weren't clauses in most House Corporation documents dealing with what happens to the house if the national group disbands/leaves campus.

[jon1856]

Explain what actions? And why do the pledges/rushees care about the choice to go local or not? You're not making a whole lot of sense. If you're a pledge/rushee why would I have to explain anything to you? You're not a brother.


Wow. Way too insult all the local GLO's on this board. Try telling them that.
No-you have done that quite while on your own. I was referring to my prior postings-as I am sure most others here understood.

How do you figure this one, sportsfan?

I don't get where you're coming up with "no rules". We have plenty of rules in the chapter, that were created by the chapter. Nationals hands down rules because they're busy jerking themselves off to the belief of inclusion and how many people a fraternity pledges so they can get more money and expand, creating more shitty chapters. The only good thing Nationals gives us is insurance.

I would, as would most people I know of and knew of during rush, would want to know all about the chapters I was looking at joining as a Brotherhood.

As for insulting most GLO members, I fear you have done that all on your own. I was, as it would seen others here understand, referring to your house as I posted in prior comments. As well as your own postings all through-out RM thread. You seem to have issues with many rules, regulations, laws and policies. And I just do not understand from where you are getting your information from, as an undergrad, to form some of your POV's.

[LaneSig]

From all his posts, the guys that join his chapter are going to care less about the national networking, the national advantages etc. They are joining the EW's School Beta Betas, not the Beta Betas of EW's School.

Oh, I understand, and I was a part of the complete trainwreck of a thread about this subject 2 years ago.

But, there are some guys who want to join the national Alpha Betas, not Alpha Beta offshoot. They are the ones I am asking about.

[jon1856]

So, you don't think it is fair to let the rushees/pledges know: "Hey, you thought you were going to join the national fraternity, Alpha Beta, but later this semester we are going to disaffiliate and become a local."

As much as the rushee might like the guys in the chapter, what if they don't want to join a local?

ETA: This is a sincere question, not trying to be snarky.

Aside from that, what University is going to stand by and allow an organization to split away from its HQ so that it may haze and ignore sound risk management policy?

-- Don't think so. You won't be a part of IFC and the University will refuse to affiliate with you. Good luck finding new members who want to be a part of that tradition -- especially when the national you split away from recolonizes on that campus.

Oh, that's an excellent question. I think they will have some complaints (and perhaps more) on their hands if they rush as XYZ knowing that they are working toward disaffiliating and going local.

I see depledging and even some bruised eyes resulting from not being forthcoming with this info.

Hmmm ... just wondering - who owns the house? I'm very familiar with what happens to breakaway church buildings in the ECUSA - and I'd be very surprised if there weren't clauses in most House Corporation documents dealing with what happens to the house if the national group disbands/leaves campus.
Thank you all for understanding.

[DSTCHAOS]

Oh, I understand, and I was a part of the complete trainwreck of a thread about this subject 2 years ago.

But, there are some guys who want to join the national Alpha Betas, not Alpha Beta offshoot. They are the ones I am asking about.

Then I wonder whether the newer members would have some say in the whole matter.

[jon1856]

Hey EW;
I meant to ask you in one of my prior posting something:
While you indicated that you are at Arkansas (and have started a thread elsewhere about elections on a campus), you missed stating what chapter you are such an active and concerned member of.

[SWTXBelle]

:eek:

[gee_ess]

Thank you all for understanding.


Hey,count me in, too! :)

[DSTCHAOS]

I think that everyone understands the concept in theory.

We just don't understand why that is really a viable alternative for those members who truly value the rich histories, traditions, and practices that exist because of our (inter)national affiliations. And, of course, we're attempting to see this from the standpoint of the types of organizations where this sort of thing is more likely to apply.

Plus, the position was that this would be an increased occurrence (for IFC fraternities, I guess) and that's where the "discussion" really comes in.

[Tom Earp]

I think that everyone understands the concept in theory.

We just don't understand why that is really a viable alternative for those members who truly value the rich histories, traditions, and practices that exist because of our (inter)national affiliations. And, of course, we're attempting to see this from the standpoint of the types of organizations where this sort of thing is more likely to apply.

Plus, the position was that this would be an increased occurrence (for IFC fraternities, I guess) and that's where the "discussion" really comes in.

Cannot agree with you more.

Todays kids that go to college are pretty smart and I think they would tend to go with tradition fof a National Fraternity for the future and what it could mean for them.

In pledgeing an off shoot or rouge GLO, what does one have? Just that small group, not the net work of a National and all of the GLOs who are out there in the real after graduation world.

National HQs do not make the regulations and rules, the membership does.

If a certain chapter does not want to abide by them, then try to change them. The Nationals run the daily business within the rules laid out to them.

If those rules are broken, they do make the decision to suspend or put on probation.

[macallan25]

Wanting to keep with tradition is exactly the reason some chapters break off. With these new programs that many fraternities are instituting in chapters......tradition and history is thrown out the window. Many of us have grown up around fraternities and certain chapters all of our lives. We know how they have operated, and it is disturbing when the MO is changed into something lesser than what we expect.

[DSTCHAOS]

Many of us have grown up around fraternities and certain chapters all of our lives. We know how they have operated, and it is disturbing when the MO is changed into something lesser than what we expect.


I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.

[Tom Earp]

I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.


So, these sense of entitlement and tradition should check mate what importance means/

No, I am not arguing with you on that point, but what mccallan said.

That was one of the most ignorant posts that I have seen when one is bigger than the whole.

So this one chapter tells the whole screw you we are going on our own and be better?

Sorry, how many ways can one spell stupid or ignorant?

[Low C Sharp]

one of their powerful alumni's son (a hemophiliac) was forced to crawl across broken glass and got cut up really bad.

Dayum. That's pathetic. If you ask me, that chapter would have done the world a favor by taking the kid out of the gene pool.

[33girl]

This thread is starting to remind me of "you can be against the war and still support the troops" or the opposite of that, and all the permutations thereof.

[macallan25]

Hey Tom, my post was not stupid or ignorant. Don't ever talk to me about that you rambling, drunk bafoon.

I didn't say a single thing that you typed or asked. I never said a single chapter is bigger than the whole. I never said we should say "screw you" to the nationals.

Damn you're an idiot.

[macallan25]

I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.

When you are told who you are supposed to rush, how long your pledge period has to be, what you can do, what you can't do, etc. etc. etc.............then yes, I feel that many of the traditions are being done away with.

Why can't I have a sense of self-entitlement in this situation? Is it bad? Many of these programs that nationals try to institute in chapters turns them all into watered down versions of their former self, imo.

[DSTCHAOS]

When you are told who you are supposed to rush, how long your pledge period has to be, what you can do, what you can't do, etc. etc. etc.............then yes, I feel that many of the traditions are being done away with.

So there was a time when such regulations didn't exist at all? I'm curious.

Why can't I have a sense of self-entitlement in this situation? Is it bad? Many of these programs that nationals try to institute in chapters turns them all into watered down versions of their former self, imo.

I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.

There's a difference between saying "these changes are at a detriment to the organization as a whole and we are petitioning for change" and saying "this isn't what my chapter brothers and I (who are a small % of the organization) thought we were signing up for when our fathers told us about this fraternity...so we're disaffiliating." :) What happens after you graduate?

[AGDee]

This thread is starting to remind me of "you can be against the war and still support the troops" or the opposite of that, and all the permutations thereof.

It reminds me more of the NPHC threads that debate paper vs. pledging since the NPHC groups did away with pledging. Some of the inter/national fraternities have not eliminated pledging completely, but have put a lot of restrictions on it that some chapters don't like.

I do find it interesting that these young men are seeing programs like the Balanced Man and Men of Principle type programs as a detriment. It seems to me that the goals of these programs are to help young men become gentlemen, obeying the law, readying themselves for gainful employment in leadership positions and holding high ideals. Is it simply that there is disagreement on how best to attain these goals?

[Elephant Walk]

I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.
I can't speak for macallan, but I think by saying we know "how they operated", we're more discussing the conservatism of the chapter, pledgeship (because often we know from famiily or friends what it's suppose to be like, i.e. not 8 weeks long), and this sort of thing. Not the specific operations, but I'm clearly seeking a chapter operation that is conservative, like my upbringing.

[gee_ess]

Does no one see this as I do? I think it is a simple case of national working to improve their organizations, align them with the 21st century, evolve into a better fraternal brotherhood. And, the chapters are rebelling because they don't like being told they have to change or modify what they have been doing for the past gazillion years. That's it. Plain and simple.

It already happened to the NPC groups and we all survived, heck, we're thriving.

[bowsandtoes]

I do find it interesting that these young men are seeing programs like the Balanced Man and Men of Principle type programs as a detriment. It seems to me that the goals of these programs are to help young men become gentlemen, obeying the law, readying themselves for gainful employment in leadership positions and holding high ideals. Is it simply that there is disagreement on how best to attain these goals?

At its core, the 'Balanced Man Program' is little more than a collegiate versions for the Boy Scouts. I could write a paper on the abomination that is the BMP but haven't really got the time. I'll point out a few....issues, that I have with the program.

"In 1989, SigEp instated the "Balanced Man Program" the BMP, as it is commonly known, is a program which focusses on the development of the individual, rather than the whole group"

This is the exact OPPOSITE of why I joined a fraternity. The BMP shifts the focus away from brotherhood towards the individual and personal gain. In the BMP you go through different 'levels' of brotherhood. A fraternity isn't a video game. Bonds of brotherhood take time, you don't just 'level up'. Each level has different requirements for personal goals (academics, community service, on-campus organizations, etc.) While nice and dandy, these can be accomplished alone and do nothing to promote brotherhood.

"Chapters are accepted into the Balanced Man Program only after an overwhelming majority of the chapter votes to convert from pledging model to Balance Man Project Chapter."

This a complete lie and the opposite of what happens. In almost every case nationals takes a struggling chapter and rather than offer to help, will force them to switch to a a BM program at the threat of removing their charter. Also, nationals won't colonize a new chapter unless they are BMP. The result is that the majority of BMP chapters are houses that are either brand new or are rebuilding from scratch. Of course the first thing nationals tells these chapters to do is get their numbers up. As all of you know its pretty hard to recruit when you already have a bad reputation on campus or none at all, so a lot of these chapters are extremely generous in their giving of bids (leading to nicknames of Sigma Phi Everyone at a lot of campuses). That open door policy along with the elimination of pledgeship means that people are signing their name, getting their letters, and learning aspects of the ritual right of the back. All of these factors lead to a lack of respect for BMP chapters at many campuses.

I could go on but time does not permit.

[Elephant Walk]

This a complete lie and the opposite of what happens. In almost every case nationals takes a struggling chapter and rather than offer to help, will force them to switch to a a BM program at the threat of removing their charter. Also, nationals won't colonize a new chapter unless they are BMP. The result is that the majority of BMP chapters are houses that are either brand new or are rebuilding from scratch. Of course the first thing nationals tells these chapters to do is get their numbers up. As all of you know its pretty hard to recruit when you already have a bad reputation on campus or none at all, so a lot of these chapters are extremely generous in their giving of bids (leading to nicknames of Sigma Phi Everyone at a lot of campuses). That open door policy along with the elimination of pledgeship means that people are signing their name, getting their letters, and learning aspects of the ritual right of the back. All of these factors lead to a lack of respect for BMP chapters at many campuses.

I could go on but time does not permit.

Completely correct. Part of the reason you find very, very few good Sig Ep chapters in the South. Texas is mid-tier, Ole Miss is mid-tier, and SoCar is as well. Those are the best chapters (that I can think of) of Sig Ep in the South. They're not even tops on campus.

BMP completely ruined the chapter here. It's about to fall off soon.

[gee_ess]

Okay, I have heard bowsandtoes explain the issues with one fraternity - and it was a fairly good explanation of why members are struggling with the changes. But what of the others that are all going to he#@ in a handbasket as you say?

[33girl]

Okay, I have heard bowsandtoes explain the issues with one fraternity - and it was a fairly good explanation of why members are struggling with the changes. But what of the others that are all going to he#@ in a handbasket as you say?

I think that he means that some of the others are adapting similar programs. I have some of the issues with our own Advantage program - which is a lot about completing goals on your own - which we went to after our previous pledge program, which was group group group 24/7. A good pledge program should be a mix of individual challenges and group challenges - not just one or the other.

@DSTChaos - yes, there used to not be such a thing as standardized pledge programs. As long as you passed the membership exam, you were good to go. The only pledging material we had from our national office when I pledged (mid 80s) was our Encounter book, which told our history, had a list of our chapters, a list of the other NPC groups w/ their colors/mascots/etc, a list of NIC groups, and a basic summary of what sorority life was like. It was around 40 pages long. The Advantage materials now are prob a 200 page book with activities, a member educator's guide....I could go on but you get the idea.

[Kevin]

I agree, BMP is ridiculous.

I'm glad that Sig Ep is the exception, not the rule. I think there's ample middle ground between traditional pledging and BMP. I think the more successful national organizations are going to create programming which aims at that area.

[jon1856]

Kappa Sigma doesn't have an umbrella program like the Balanced Man or Men of Principle that spans the entire fraternity, but we do have a rush program called "Most Wanted Man".
Because nationals has tried to implement a 6-week pledgeship, they want us to do a mid-semester rush.
No, really. It's true. Maybe if they cut down pledging to four weeks we can have three rushes each semester!

They also make their own estimates about how many pledges we should be getting each semester and send us our goals and a checklist to return to them.

Fortunately, I'm part of an established chapter with enough members and money to satisfy them, so we don't have to deal with most of it. But any new chapter or colony won't be able to start off very well with ridiculous rules like this.
I always thought that IFC and/or school had a greater say in rush matters?!?!?!? Learn something new every day here.

[DSTCHAOS]

@DSTChaos - yes, there used to not be such a thing as standardized pledge programs. As long as you passed the membership exam, you were good to go. The only pledging material we had from our national office when I pledged (mid 80s) was our Encounter book, which told our history, had a list of our chapters, a list of the other NPC groups w/ their colors/mascots/etc, a list of NIC groups, and a basic summary of what sorority life was like. It was around 40 pages long. The Advantage materials now are prob a 200 page book with activities, a member educator's guide....I could go on but you get the idea.

Was this a free-for-all or were there just different (and seemingly more lenient) regulations and restrictions, though?

[oldu]

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership, have more chapters at the U.S. News top universities, are adding chapters at an impressive rate and probably have closed fewer chapters recently. If their program is that unpopular why are they so successful? What they are doing may not be what you are seeking from a fraternity, but obviously it is attractive to a lot of young men. You may be fooling yourselves. While you are judging groups by what you think is hot today, you may very well be working for the men who went through a balanced man program tomorrow. I am not a Sig Ep but I am certainly impressed by their success.

[33girl]

Was this a free-for-all or were there just different (and seemingly more lenient) regulations and restrictions, though?

I think that we had to send a copy of our pledge program to HQ, but other than that...it was definitely more lenient.

Of course I'm only speaking for my group....other NPCs might have done something more uniform.

[bowsandtoes]

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership, have more chapters at the U.S. News top universities, are adding chapters at an impressive rate and probably have closed fewer chapters recently. If their program is that unpopular why are they so successful? What they are doing may not be what you are seeking from a fraternity, but obviously it is attractive to a lot of young men. You may be fooling yourselves. While you are judging groups by what you think is hot today, you may very well be working for the men who went through a balanced man program tomorrow. I am not a Sig Ep but I am certainly impressed by their success.

If numbers equated success, then yes we'd be flying high. But the truth is they often don't, especially when many of these chapters are bidding anyone who walks through the door.

[macallan25]

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership, have more chapters at the U.S. News top universities, are adding chapters at an impressive rate and probably have closed fewer chapters recently. If their program is that unpopular why are they so successful? What they are doing may not be what you are seeking from a fraternity, but obviously it is attractive to a lot of young men. You may be fooling yourselves. While you are judging groups by what you think is hot today, you may very well be working for the men who went through a balanced man program tomorrow. I am not a Sig Ep but I am certainly impressed by their success.

Eh, I mean Oklahoma SigEp rushes like 75-80 guys a year. Their numbers are huge. They are second tier their. Not nearly as good as FIJI, SAE, etc. and they don't have near the numbers ever year that Sep takes in.

[bowsandtoes]

Completely correct. Part of the reason you find very, very few good Sig Ep chapters in the South. Texas is mid-tier, Ole Miss is mid-tier, and SoCar is as well. Those are the best chapters (that I can think of) of Sig Ep in the South. They're not even tops on campus.

We're not middle tier here. ATO/KappaSig size chapters are considered middle tier and we're not nearly on that level. If we're 'middle tier' then so is KA.

[macallan25]

So there was a time when such regulations didn't exist at all? I'm curious.



I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.

There's a difference between saying "these changes are at a detriment to the organization as a whole and we are petitioning for change" and saying "this isn't what my chapter brothers and I (who are a small % of the organization) thought we were signing up for when our fathers told us about this fraternity...so we're disaffiliating." :) What happens after you graduate?

I wasn't really talking about rituals and such in reference to knowing how our chapters operated.

Take for instance SAE down here at Texas. My dad went through at our chapter. So did tons of his friends. A bunch of my older friends went through here as well. I grew up around the house and got to hear them talk about it all the time. I went in to pledgeship knowing quite a bit about what to expect. How long the pledge program was going to be.......things of that nature.

I think you know my stance, as well as others on how the chapter relates to the whole so I wont' go there.

As far as what happens after I graduate......what do you mean?

[Elephant Walk]

We're not middle tier here. ATO/KappaSig size chapters are considered middle tier and we're not nearly on that level. If we're 'middle tier' then so is KA.

Gotcha.

Wasn't too sure how Ole Miss was set up. Knew Phi Delt/Sigma Nu was up there. Even so, upper-middle to middle at Ole Miss could compete as top, anywhere in the country.

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership, have more chapters at the U.S. News top universities, are adding chapters at an impressive rate and probably have closed fewer chapters recently.
Quantity does NOT equal quality. One of the worst problems is they're "adding chapters at an impressie rate." Not good. I'm sure they'll be opening them at Community Colleges soon. Throw in BMP with "adding chapters at an impressive rate" and you have at least in the South, a poor image. A "Sigma Phi Everyone" image. There are chapters, like bows, which are exceptions of course.

[DSTCHAOS]

I wasn't really talking about rituals and such in reference to knowing how our chapters operated.

Take for instance SAE down here at Texas. My dad went through at our chapter. So did tons of his friends. A bunch of my older friends went through here as well. I grew up around the house and got to hear them talk about it all the time. I went in to pledgeship knowing quite a bit about what to expect. How long the pledge program was going to be.......things of that nature.

I think you know my stance, as well as others on how the chapter relates to the whole so I wont' go there.

Gotcha. Thanks. :)

As far as what happens after I graduate......what do you mean?

You weren't supporting a chapter disaffiliating but those who choose to go local, do they concede their ability to remain active with SAE when they graduate?

The way people see their organizations as a crazy co-ed is often different than they will when they get older and more mature. Assuming that some of these people don't see their fraternity as something they did for college and that's it. :)

[macallan25]

Gotcha. Thanks. :)

You weren't supporting a chapter disaffiliating but those who choose to go local, do they concede their ability to remain active with SAE when they graduate?

The way people see their organizations as a crazy co-ed is often different than they will when they get older and more mature. Assuming that some of these people don't see their fraternity as something they did for college and that's it. :)

That is a good question. I would assume that if a chapter went local then their allegiance would remain with the chapter outside of college. I'm not really sure how it would work if a graduated member of a local wanted to remain involved with the national chapter that they were previously affiliated with. I wouldn't think that they would be rejected if they wanted to donate money or something like that.

You know, I'll probably approach being in a fraternity when I am out of college the same way my dad did. Yes, it was a "college thing" for him, but he still donates to the chapter, goes to events at the chapter (game day tailgates, golf tournaments, etc.) I think we both view the fraternity experience as a life long one in the sense of friends we have made...things of that nature.

[33girl]

That is a good question. I would assume that if a chapter went local then their allegiance would remain with the chapter outside of college. I'm not really sure how it would work if a graduated member of a local wanted to remain involved with the national chapter that they were previously affiliated with. I wouldn't think that they would be rejected if they wanted to donate money or something like that.


I think that probably the same thing would happen that happens when a chapter goes from local to national. Some people are not in favor of it and don't stay involved. It goes both ways. Even if the majority of people are in favor of it, I think that there are always at least a few who aren't in favor of the transition. Whether they voice that opinion is another matter.

[Kevin]

Quantity does NOT equal quality. One of the worst problems is they're "adding chapters at an impressie rate." Not good. I'm sure they'll be opening them at Community Colleges soon. Throw in BMP with "adding chapters at an impressive rate" and you have at least in the South, a poor image. A "Sigma Phi Everyone" image. There are chapters, like bows, which are exceptions of course.

I agree. Doing away with selectivity decreases the value of the experience. Our chapters may not have hazing anymore in many cases, but membership is still something that is earned. I'll bet Sig Ep could be even bigger if they went co-ed. Someone might want to let them know.

[MysticCat]

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership . . . .An interesting claim/observation given that the fraternity system as a whole is historically predicated on a certain elitism of "taking only the best."

[jon1856]

I go to the University of Arkansas.

I've indicated this repetitively.

You know, show me when DKE or SAE at Alabama get busted. Phi Delt or Sigma Nu at Ole Miss. DKE at Yale. Strong chapters. I'm not saying any of these haze though I have a good idea, but show me a strong chapter that nationals even thinks of threatening. Some of these chapters would have to sacrifice three pledges on the front steps of the nationals building to be thought about bringing up.
Hey EW:
In your "book" does Texas Count???;)

[Elephant Walk]

Hey EW:
In your "book" does Texas Count???;)

Texas absolutely counts and my point was made.

To my knowledge, SAE was already under hazing probation (this could be cleared up, but I believe they were), and they got a slap on the wrist.

[jon1856]

Texas absolutely counts and my point was made.

To my knowledge, SAE was already under hazing probation (this could be cleared up, but I believe they were), and they got a slap on the wrist.
A "Slap on the Wrist"??????:confused::eek:
Not too sure just what you are reading or drinking.
You may wish to re-read all of that thread again real slow and with greater care.

[Elephant Walk]

A "Slap on the Wrist"??????:confused::eek:
Not too sure just what you are reading or drinking.
You may wish to re-read all of that thread again real slow and with greater care.
I read it.

But for what happened, even if SAE had nothing to do with it, it's a slap on the wrist. Especially since they were apparently already on hazing probation. None of that is going to be enforced especially the unannounced visits by whomever. They didn't get kicked off campus like what would've happened on any other campus.

[jon1856]

I read it.

But for what happened, even if SAE had nothing to do with it, it's a slap on the wrist. Especially since they were apparently already on hazing probation. None of that is going to be enforced especially the unannounced visits by whomever. They didn't get kicked off campus like what would've happened on any other campus.
Read it again.
I think you missed something.
And BTB-Did you change schools again? You now seem to know a great deal about Texas.

[bowsandtoes]

TABC and APD already makes pretty regular 'unannounced' visits to our houses during parties so its not like this is big news. Even if they didn't have this agreement they would find a way to work their agenda.

[macallan25]

It'll work out fine.

[Day13]

You know it may be all this cramming for exams but this debate of dropping nationals and focusing on the chapter reminds me of a small event that happened before.

American Civil War.


Little conflict, anyone heard of it? The confederate south (SEC or what have you)wanted power to focus more on the individual state (chapter) instead of having a national government (HQ) that was miles away reform how things have always been in their respective state (chapter).

I understand the appreciation of seeing all that has come before you on worked on the national organization to allow your chapter to be there. But when you are a chapter that is 75+ years old your chapter probably has a pretty rich history of its own.

A simple example. Imagine if the NIC told a fraternity how things were going to be. Your fraternity would be pissed and say that is just not how we do things and possibly disaffiliate. (Phi Delt anyone?)

-------

I personally don't care if those chapters do or don't disaffiliate but I see why they would favor "Chapter Rights" and a confederal style of gov't.

[Elephant Walk]

That's somewhat it, honestly.

And I did read the rules. SAE got off scott-free. Which is good, but it proves my points. Strong chapters will not get taken down in the South.

Very little of those things that were written down are actually going to be followed through with. Maybe for a year or so.

[SWTXBelle]

Just a little historical aside - The War Between the States did not, alas, end up well for those who wanted to emphasize state's rights over centralized federal government. They were crushed by sheer numbers and resources. . . :)
( and NO - I'm not really continuing the analogy. I don't think . . . I don't know enough either way to be able to authoritatively say. But the analogy might not be the BEST if you are in favor of local chapter vs. nationals.)

[jon1856]

And I did read the rules. SAE got off scott-free. Which is good, but it proves my points. Strong chapters will not get taken down in the South.

.
EW, you still did not get it. You are so hung up on National/School matters, you seem to over look the fact that there are also Govermental agencies that have an interest in GLO's.
Once again I do have to ask you: Did you change schools once again? As you always seem to know every thing about anything at every GLO, at every campus, in every State.

[jon1856]

Just a little historical aside - The War Between the States did not, alas, end up well for those who wanted to emphasize state's rights over centralized federal government. They were crushed by sheer numbers and resources. . . :)
( and NO - I'm not really continuing the analogy. I don't think . . . I don't know enough either way to be able to authoritatively say. But the analogy might not be the BEST if you are in favor of local chapter vs. nationals.)
SWTXBelle;
I agree with you.
I was just about the post a little different analogy that takes yours one step farther.
The chapters could be the Native-American Tribes/Nations during the War between the States.
Particularly if they go local.

[fantASTic]

The difference between the War Between the States and GLOs is that nationals and councils really do very little for us once we get established, besides the rules. I like being part of a national...but it is true that AST's nationals don't give us anything. We don't need it. But, I have seen struggling chapters ask their Nationals for help reorganizing for THREE YEARS....this chapter is now gone because their nationals would not help them and kept telling them "things will be fine! You'll be fine!".

The federal government, on the other hand, throws a lot of money and resources to states (highway money, anyone?).

[Day13]

They were crushed by sheer numbers and resources. . . :)
( and NO - I'm not really continuing the analogy. I don't think . . . I don't know enough either way to be able to authoritatively say. But the analogy might not be the BEST if you are in favor of local chapter vs. nationals.)

Actually, the South wasn't crushed. They were defeated certainly, yes, but crushed is quite the hyperbole. Most of the victories come from the eastern side of the states (once again I will point out the SEC part).

And if you are in favor of local chapters (seceding) against their nationals it really is a good analogy in my opinion. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and now we have a Federalist government with shared powers between states rights and central government. If the locals talk to nationals about abandoning them they may be treated with disdain, but conversely, they might be able to get nationals to realize their problems they have with them.

/Analogy and History Lessons.
//Still not favoring one side or the other, just sparking discussion.

[Tom Earp]

The difference between the War Between the States and GLOs is that nationals and councils really do very little for us once we get established, besides the rules. I like being part of a national...but it is true that AST's nationals don't give us anything. We don't need it. But, I have seen struggling chapters ask their Nationals for help reorganizing for THREE YEARS....this chapter is now gone because their nationals would not help them and kept telling them "things will be fine! You'll be fine!".

The federal government, on the other hand, throws a lot of money and resources to states (highway money, anyone?).


Actually, I do not give a damn about the War between the States, it is a done deal so get over it!

Now getting back to the original topic and answering to this poster, yes, it does happen and so, you ask why?

It is called money.

LXA has a policy that there will be visitations by ELCs/Traveling Secretarys paid for by the Chapters. They are required to meet at least 2 times a year or semesterly. Many have volunteers only from the Alumni base in those states and areas.
After a while, they get burned out and just say screw it.

I caqn understand as I fought with My National for years about getting help and through 3 Executive Directors and finally the third heard the cry and snet people down, and now, we are growing with a new house.

You may PM me if you feel like chatting about this and see if I can give advice off of site.

[Day13]

Actually, I do not give a damn about the War between the States, it is a done deal so get over it!


"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana.


That would be like saying Pearl Harbor is a done deal so get over it. You shouldn't read so much into what I was saying. It was an analogy that used historical facts. I did not say my opinion on the war. It's not like I referred to it as "The War of Northern Agression."

How could I get over something that I wasn't even fixated on emotionally in the first place? To top it off my family didn't even come over till after the civil war and when they did they came through Ellis Island. Pretty sure that I am "over" it.

Side note, I was often confused as to why so many people had negative thoughts regarding your reading comprehension and ability to form cognizant sentences. And I'll end this post the way it began, another quote, but this time from Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

[SWTXBelle]

Actually, the South wasn't crushed. They were defeated certainly, yes, but crushed is quite the hyperbole. Most of the victories come from the eastern side of the states (once again I will point out the SEC part).

And if you are in favor of local chapters (seceding) against their nationals it really is a good analogy in my opinion. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and now we have a Federalist government with shared powers between states rights and central government. If the locals talk to nationals about abandoning them they may be treated with disdain, but conversely, they might be able to get nationals to realize their problems they have with them.

/Analogy and History Lessons.
//Still not favoring one side or the other, just sparking discussion.


Given what the Southern economy looked like , I'd say "crushed" was a fair term. From a purely military standpoint, I see your point. Mine was simply that the analogy wasn't perhaps the best IF you were in support of local autonomy.

And it's true, Tom -"when ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise." So I'm happy for your bliss, Mr. Earp