Home Schooling Declared Illegal in CA! [Archive]

texas*princess

03-17-2008, 08:01 PM

According to a writ issued by the Second Appeals Court in the State of California, parents do not have the right to home school their children unless they hold a valid teacher's certificate. I have read the ruling and the subsequent articles (In fact I have highlighted both!)

This ruling will effect many people in the State of California, including private schools. I am holding my opinions and my background for right now because i want to see what ya'all think........What do you all think? :)

Article about the ruling (http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/ca/200803120.asp)

The actual writ (It is PDF Format) (http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B192878.PDF)

:eek:

What will all those kids who are wanna-be Hollywood stars do??? They can't possibly star in feature films AND go to school at the same time!

DSTCHAOS

03-17-2008, 08:43 PM

This is a good and necessary change.

LucyKKG

03-17-2008, 09:05 PM

I don't feel like I know enough about home-schooling to properly judge this situation. My first instinct is to say OF COURSE kids shouldn't be home-schooled. However, there are so many situations where it may be necessary/preferable, and I honestly know very little about the program(s?).

My cousin (in OR, not CA) was home-schooled because that part of the family is Jehovah's witnesses. I think he ended up graduating early, but I don't really get how that works.

PeppyGPhiB

03-17-2008, 09:19 PM

I think this is probably a good thing. Too many parents take their kids out of public school because they just want to teach their kids what THEY want them taught, not what the kids need to learn in order to function in this world. There are many parents that do a great job at homeschooling, but there are so many that mess up their kids, too. Frankly, homeschooling has allowed a lot of hellicopter parents to control every aspect of their kids' lives.

Furthermore, I think homeschooling has allowed our states to ignore the state of public education in this country. Instead of being the "only when necessary" option that it once was, it's become an acceptable solution whenever parents just don't like their local public school...basically giving up on public schools. It's for this same reason that I don't really like charter schools - good schools are good for our society, and we should want to provide a good education to everyone.

UGAalum94

03-17-2008, 09:32 PM

At first this decision seems reasonable then you stop and think about how getting a teacher credential is such junk. Having one doesn't demonstrate that you actually know much or could determine what a good general education would be. (And I say that having a teaching certificate, so please don't be insulted if you are a teacher or on behalf of teachers. Just ask yourself if you really learned that much content from teacher ed classes and ask yourself if you only had to teach one or two kids and you had access age appropriate materials, would you have needed what you did learn.)

I think much better methods to ensure that home schooled kids are getting a good education would be first, as AGDLynn pointed out, to make sure that the parents are actually offering instruction to the kids (some people claim to home school to get around truancy laws) and then, rather than worrying about the parents' credentials, to assess the kids on what they know by using the same exams that the kids in public schools have to take.

Even these requirements are more intrusive than I think parents should have to put up because I don't think parents should be obligated to provide the state academic authority over their kids if they don't want the service provided and there's no other evidence of neglect or abuse. Decision making from on high in public school (curriculum, methods, materials, discipline, etc.) is sketchy enough that if you have the resources and the will to do it, you probably could do a better job at home and there are plenty of other programs for kids in the areas of socialization.

I have no idea what the California constitution says about education and from what I understand the terms of the decision are actually narrower than what's being described in the news.

SWTXBelle

03-17-2008, 10:29 PM

I have homeschooled my 18 year old senior.
Her ACT scores are in the top 5% of the country.
Study after study has shown that home schooled students do BETTER than their public and private schooled peers.
NO ONE knows a child better than a parent, and it doesn't take an education degree to be a good teacher.
What am I basing that on? Maybe the fact that when I graduated with my B.A. in English I had TWICE as many English courses under my belt than someone "certified" to teach. Maybe on the fact that while I am considered unfit to teach public school, I got to spend 13 years flunking graduates of public school in college. (I can't tell you how many of them couldn't even write a decent paragraph, had no idea what subject/verb agreement was, or a thesis)Or perhaps the 7 years I spent teaching AP English to private school students who went on to become National Merit Scholars, Scholastic Writing Award winners, and Academic team state champions, not to mention the litany of top-ranked schools they went on to attend. Maybe my experience with the education majors who took a few English classes with me as I went for my graduate degree - and who complained about having to write papers every week, and were amazed that we had to write a thesis and have a comprehensive examination - neither of which they were required to do.
Homeschooling was largely illegal only 20 years ago, and the fact that it is now the fastest growing sector of education is a testment to the HSLDA and the many dedicated parents who have seen fit to put their childrens' education first. Studies looking into everything from academic progress to social skills have shown that homeschoolers don't just do okay, they perform above their peers.
Homeschooling does not mean that only the parent teaches the child, although that is often the case. I had other parents help by teaching classes in things like math which I did not feel comfortable teaching. My daughter has successfully passed college calculus and chemistry, taught by college professors. The curriuculum and materials out there are just incredible - far more innovative than anything I came across while teaching high school.
My daughter was never held hostage to the lower half of her class - never was bored because she had learned the material but her teacher had to keep trying to get the others in the class up to her level. She is an incredible writer, a gifted musician, and has a far more comprehensive grasp of subjects such as history, philosophy and anatomy, for example, than any other high schooler I've known. (Certainly more than I, a graduate of public schools, could have dreamed of back in 1982)
Given the success of HSLDA in the past, I have no doubt that this ruling will eventually be overturned. Education is properly the responsiblity of the parent - please show me in the Constitution where the federal government was given that duty. Homeschooling scares the teachers' unions and the status quo not because it doesn't work - but because it does.
No, I've never taken the 3 hour course in bulletin boards that some of my sisters who were eduation majors have. So perhaps my bulletin boards weren't up to snuff. But I can point not only to my daugher, but to the dozens of high school students and hundreds of college students who have passed through my classes and gone on to be successful in their college and professional carrers, as the proof that an education degree is not required to be a great teacher.
Do I wish I could in good faith send my children to public school? Yes. But I am not willing to sacrifice their education and well-being to a social experiment. The public school system as we know it has failed, but no one is willing to say so and do what needs to be done to address its many problems. A band aid here, a band aid there is the best that they will do.

bejazd

03-17-2008, 10:52 PM

This one hits pretty close to home for me, as I live in a semi-rural area where many students are home schooled. There are also 3 public high schools within 2 miles of each other, one of which just went charter. I can understand the many reasons for choosing home schooling- I would not put my child on a school bus (some kids here can be on a bus for up to 3 hours a day!)

I agree with what the judge was trying to do in trying to make sure that home schooled children are actually being educated. I wonder why he didn't enforce something like enrolling the children in their school districts' home school program, which gives the parents some guidelines, offers free textbooks, and can give parents the option of sending their children to a traditional school for just one or two classes.

UGAalum94

03-17-2008, 10:56 PM

SWTXbelle, I have no problem with homeschooling and agree with many of your points, but I'm not sure that I'd say that the public school system has failed. Is it failing some places? No doubt. Are the educational bureaucrats often making it worse? Absolutely. Could it be better almost everyplace? Sure.

But I know that the public school where I teach with the assistance of the students' parents produces 300+ competent graduates a year (along with a couple of incompetent ones whose parents worked against us) and probably at least 150+ of them are very well qualified for college level work at selective colleges. It isn't failed or failing as an institution by any reasonable measure.

But anyone who wants to home school their children is certainly welcome to in my book.

DeltAlum

03-17-2008, 11:20 PM

We know a number of people who home schooled their children who did very well in college or whatever they decided to do later in their lives.

There are certainly some people who shouldn't be allowed to teach children, but, unfortunately, some of them hold college degrees and teaching certificates. They just aren't any good at being a teacher. Conversely, there are a lot of parents who are great teachers.

I'll bet there is an appeal on this.

Jimmy Choo

03-18-2008, 12:01 AM

While homeschooling itself is a whole 'nother ball of wax, it sounds like there were other issues in this home. The quality of their schooling only being one.

honeychile

03-18-2008, 12:37 AM

SWTXBelle, I agree with you 100%. Pretty much every parent I know who has the time and ability home schools their children. The two biggest arguments against it seem to be that the children aren't properly socialized, and that the parents can't keep up with the school work. Well, I can only speak for those children I know, in California, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Virginia, but each have VERY strong groups of fellow home schoolers, and they meet at least twice a month - along with the normal scouts, teams, dance, etc. Maybe they aren't socialized like most children - they're all so darn respectful and polite, and not just when someone's looking! As for the material, just take a look at the parents' manuals. Home schooled children are usually MORE prepared for tests and such, since they have to be tested quite often to make sure that they're keeping up.

People don't look to see the "why" of homeschooling; they just see it as being different. We're tolerant of race, creed, and orientation, but not of someone willing to stay home to teach these valuable lessons themselves.

33girl

03-18-2008, 10:15 AM

What am I basing that on? Maybe the fact that when I graduated with my B.A. in English I had TWICE as many English courses under my belt than someone "certified" to teach. Maybe on the fact that while I am considered unfit to teach public school, I got to spend 13 years flunking graduates of public school in college. (I can't tell you how many of them couldn't even write a decent paragraph, had no idea what subject/verb agreement was, or a thesis)Or perhaps the 7 years I spent teaching AP English to private school students who went on to become National Merit Scholars, Scholastic Writing Award winners, and Academic team state champions, not to mention the litany of top-ranked schools they went on to attend. Maybe my experience with the education majors who took a few English classes with me as I went for my graduate degree - and who complained about having to write papers every week, and were amazed that we had to write a thesis and have a comprehensive examination - neither of which they were required to do.

So in other words, even though you don't have a high school teaching cert, you were a college professor? In other words, you have TAUGHT others and know how to do it. That's a little different.

The homeschooling parents that I (and most other people) am not cool with are the ones who barely got through HS themselves and have no ability to educate. Just because you know what to do, doesn't mean you can teach others to do it.

I wish that the homeschooling parents who ARE doing it right would crack down on the ones who are doing it wrong. It might have more weight coming from them.

The thing I like least about homeschooling (and school choice in general) is that it seems to be teaching our children that if something doesn't work, just walk away from it - don't try to fix it.

bejazd

03-18-2008, 11:08 AM

I'm all for parent involvement and attempting to fix the problems: in my ideal world we'd have great community based schools in all communities...but the reality of it is that some communities either can't or won't support their local schools (for example, making sure your child goes to school fed, bathed, ready to learn and willing to participate in the learning process.) The other very troubling issue I've encountered as my children have gone from kindergarten to HS is that school administrations and teachers say they want parent involvement, yet what they really want is parents to act as booster clubs raising money to pay for the things we parents want the state legislature to budget and pay for: music, arts, science, vocational training etc.

There have been so many times I've been so incredibly frustrated by the bureaucracy of all it. In my community, one HS has gone charter as an attempt by the community to reclaim the school from the lameness of the school district and teacher's union and their constant squabbling. It's almost as if everyone forgot about the students. That's why I'm for school choice- it's the parents last best hope of actually holding educators responsible for getting the job done.

Of course the news here is full of stories of all the teachers that just got warning notices that they could be laid off next fall due to the state's budget crisis. One teacher was on the lamenting that she just couldn't work with this "black cloud" hanging over her, and "all they care about is test scores!" HELLOOO! Yes, everyday, people go to work not knowing if they'll have a job tomorrow, and yes, their employers do care about their performance every day that they are actually getting paid to show up at work. Welcome to the real world.

33girl

03-18-2008, 11:31 AM

Taualumna

03-18-2008, 11:32 AM

:eek:

What will all those kids who are wanna-be Hollywood stars do??? They can't possibly star in feature films AND go to school at the same time!

Certified tutors.

I had some friend issues in for a year or so in high school and begged my parents to homeschool me. Parents were completely against it.

DSTCHAOS

03-18-2008, 12:27 PM

The thing is....the teachers/admin are not the ones who cut music and art programs. The teachers/admin are not the ones mandating standardized tests (or should I say, elevating standardized tests above where they should be). A lot of the time that comes down from the state or federal government.

If we keep pulling our kids out of the public schools, we lose any rights to say what we think should happen there and things just get worse. I hate to think that this country is going to go back to the days of education being a privilege for the rich, but it's happening as we speak.

Ditto.

My siblings and I were educated in a poorly resourced public school system. We were surrounded by some kids of different socioeconomic and family backgrounds who were real badasses with horrendous grades. Frustrated teachers and all of that. Instead of taking us out of this structure and sending us to private or gifted schools (my parents don't agree with home schooling), they kept us there. They wanted to stay involved with these schools so that they could challenge them to change. We were urged to associate with the other kids in the National Honor Society and honors courses but of course we felt peer pressure from being surrounded by the kids who didn't think school was important. We were taught some great stuff because there were some EXCELLENT teachers and our parents reinforced what we were taught when we came home (without needing to home school us). If there was something the school didn't teach, my parents who are college educators gave us books and talked to us about the stuff so we could be exposed to it.

All of this without home schooling. We learned how to adjust to successes and failures, be around others who don't share our background (even if our interactions were restricted to school hours), and to work toward a common goal without axing the idea altogether.

bejazd

03-18-2008, 01:48 PM

The thing is....the teachers/admin are not the ones who cut music and art programs. .

It's not that simple...the teachers (through their unions) do sabotage the success of certain programs that parents feel are important and keep kids in school...for example, in my district, the teachers union will not allow any uncredentialed instructor to be paid by the district. Therefore, parents must pick up the tab for hiring an assistant band director, dance/color guard instructors, or coaches. The result? Parents picked up the tab. The district now is off the hook for budgeting for the music program. It goes along for a few years until the parents get fed up with fundraising up the wazoo all the time to pay for what we feel the school should be providing. Ultimately, music programs are being killed in the public schools in just this way...while the public charter school has the freedom to hire whoever they want, because they don't have to deal with the teacher's union.

The only time I feel like I actually have a say is I can control my own children's education. by doing exactly what DSTchaos's parents did..and when I vote on election day. The rest of the time we're pretty much at the mercy of the public school system as it is.

MysticCat

03-18-2008, 01:58 PM

33girl

03-18-2008, 02:09 PM

It's not that simple...the teachers (through their unions) do sabotage the success of certain programs that parents feel are important and keep kids in school...for example, in my district, the teachers union will not allow any uncredentialed instructor to be paid by the district. Therefore, parents must pick up the tab for hiring an assistant band director, dance/color guard instructors, or coaches. The result? Parents picked up the tab. The district now is off the hook for budgeting for the music program. It goes along for a few years until the parents get fed up with fundraising up the wazoo all the time to pay for what we feel the school should be providing. Ultimately, music programs are being killed in the public schools in just this way...while the public charter school has the freedom to hire whoever they want, because they don't have to deal with the teacher's union.

The only time I feel like I actually have a say is I can control my own children's education. by doing exactly what DSTchaos's parents did..and when I vote on election day. The rest of the time we're pretty much at the mercy of the public school system as it is.

The issue there is not the school administration, or (I would wager) the majority of the teachers themselves. The issue is what the union tells them they can and cannot do, and the heads of the union do NOT always speak for all the teachers.

Trust me...I live in Pennsylvania...my home school district went through one of the ugliest teacher/school board debates in the history of the state. It tore our town apart. I'm not saying the unions are perfect, but they were created for a reason.

Doesn't your district hire teachers with an eye to what else they can do? All I heard from my friends when they went for jobs is that unless they can coach or do something else extracurricular they couldn't get a job.

bejazd

03-18-2008, 03:32 PM

[quote=33girl;1619700]The issue there is not the school administration, or (I would wager) the majority of the teachers themselves. The issue is what the union tells them they can and cannot do, and the heads of the union do NOT always speak for all the teachers.]

Well they DO elect their own union leaders...and the district admin and parents have absolutely zero control on that one so the teachers have to own the actions of their own union. Do the math teachers care if the music program bites the dust? probably not. But they DO care when parents get so fed up with the mediocrity of the school that they seek alternatives...kids not in their school = less ADA money = less need for teachers. Home schooling and charter schools provide options for those parents that just don't have it in them anymore to battle what seems like a never ending political situation where students are often at the bottom of anyone's priority list.

33girl

03-18-2008, 03:48 PM

Do the math teachers care if the music program bites the dust? probably not.

I disagree, and I am guessing the majority of teachers on here would too.

And sororities elect their own leaders as well, but I will say that some of the decisions my leaders (chapter and national) have made certainly weren't ones I agreed with.

Oh, and that guy in the White House? Elected him too, and, well....

SWTXBelle

03-18-2008, 05:20 PM

I still pay the taxes that pay for public education. Therefore, I have a stake, and a right to complain about the system, whether or not I my children are in the system. In fact, every person, parent or not, who is interested in the good of our society should have a voice in determining what to do with public education.
The vast majority of homeschooling parents I know, with a wide range of educational backgrounds, are very good at teaching their children. Teaching your own children is different than trying to manage a class of 20+ kids - and requires a different skill set. The vast majority work with other home schoolers, and you'll find classes and consortiums that mean if you feel weak in a particular subject you can insure your child gets a quality education. I don't speak Italian, yet my daughter learned through a top-notch curriculum (and with the help of a friend of hers in Italy). Home schoolers are very creative in finding opportunities for their children, and taking advantage of the community in which they live and the greater home schooling world.
You'll never convince me that every holder of an education degree is a good teacher - you really don't need me to pull the data on that, do you? - and the same teachers' unions that fight the idea of competency testing for their members tooth and nail are the same ones who want to establish some form of competency requirements for home schoolers. Yes, there are homeschooling parents who do not do a good job, but they are the minority. There are plenty of public schools who are not doing a good job, and until that is not the case I really don't think that public educators should worry about private schools or home schoolers.
The answer is not subjecting home schooled children to the same testing (a la "No Child Left Behind" - ha!) we put our public schooled students through. One of the joys of home schooling is not having curriculum dictated to you - being free to take your child's interest and run with it. Testing doesn't insure that public schooled students are receiving a quality education, and I would argue that it actually gets in the way.
I have a sister in law with a Master's degree in education who was frustrated because she had to give up teaching science to her class in the spring because it was not on the state tests. Think about that - subjects such as history and science (not to mention p.e., music and the arts) being given short shrift because they are not on the tests.
I know many dedicated, educated public teachers who are totally hamstrung by the levels of administrative bureaucracy, the dictates of people in ivory towers in Washington D.C., and whatever the latest fad in education is. They are understandably frustrated, and many of them send their children to private schools. Too often the system doesn't give the best teachers the support they need, and we end up losing them or they end up burning out.
One of my sorority sisters is back working as a paralegal after a year of teaching after getting her certification. The lack of support from her administration and the level of discipline problems lead her to leave after only a year. I'm most familiar with the Houston ISD - where there are 2 administrators for every teacher. Is that in the students' best interest? I don't think so. I think it's a tragic waste of money.
I firmly believe that local control is the best way to make sure students receive the education they need. With the exception of a few nutcases, parents are the ones most invested in their children receiving a good education. Most parents, and most communities, are best able to dictate what is in their children's best interests. That's why I support the right of parents to decide how their children should be educated -whether it is public, private, or home schooling. (And this from the grand-daughter of a public school superintendent and Texas State School board member!)

ZTAMich

03-18-2008, 05:44 PM

I was homeschooled for a year during 4th grade. The private school I attended became too expensive for my parents and they did not want to throw me into our local public school with the school year already started. I thank them a lot for having the foresight about that. It was only for a year as my sisters were little and my mom was a bit overwhelmed, trying to help me 'go to school' during their nap times. I wasn't very motivated that year. My mom had a teaching background, taught middle school for a while before leaving to be a SAHM.
I knew a family growing up that homeschooled all 3 of their children bc they did not like their local public school. The mom received some training but didn't need a lot since the program they used included videos of lessons for their kids recorded in a real classroom. We all were socialized in a homeschooling group with kids our age a few times a month where we went on field trips, did a science fair, etc. One mom even held French classes in her home which was pretty cool.
I think if parents are unhappy with the public options for schooling they should be able to do what they want. If a private and/or religious school is within their means, that's great. If homeschooling is something they want they should be able to do that as well.
From my teaching perspective tho, I believe that kids today really need a rigorous education and I'm not 100% that a parent, without some kind of teaching education, can provide that no matter how great their intentions are. A lot depends on the curriculum content but also on how it is presented.

shinerbock

03-18-2008, 06:10 PM

PeppyGPhiB

03-18-2008, 06:16 PM

An outrageous decision for the most part. Once again the government has decided on behalf of families what is best for children.

I'm afraid we're too far gone when it comes to stripping Americans of their autonomy.

I do think the government needs to oversee the education of kids in this country, whether that's through public or private schools, or keeping a close eye on homeschooling. Why? Because our whole society pays for it when kids grow up to be illiterate or undereducated adults who can't function in the real world.

shinerbock

03-18-2008, 06:29 PM

I do think the government needs to oversee the education of kids in this country, whether that's through public or private schools, or keeping a close eye on homeschooling. Why? Because our whole society pays for it when kids grow up to be illiterate or undereducated adults who can't function in the real world.

Is there an epidemic of idiotic home-schooled children ruining society? I see plenty of public school grads and dropouts having this impact.

I agree, society has an interest in education. I still don't care. I don't think that everything society has an interest in mandates government involvement. Plus, your assertion seems premised on the idea that we later provide for people who can't function on their own, and I think that shouldn't be the case either.

Protecting society from itself is not something the government will ever do efficiently, and I really wish citizens would stop depending on it.

PeppyGPhiB

03-18-2008, 07:11 PM

Is there an epidemic of idiotic home-schooled children ruining society? I see plenty of public school grads and dropouts having this impact.

My point wasn't about homeschooling. I even included it alongside public and private schools. I merely said that I DO think government should maintain some oversight of education, because we all know that without publicly-funded schools, America would be a MESS. Most families nowadays cannot afford to keep one parent home to teach the kids every day for 12 years. And most also can't afford to send their kids to private school for 12 years. So, if the government doesn't mandate that kids are educated, and it therefore stops paying for public schools, what are we to do?

And what do you then propose we do with the adults that are the product of a society that places no real value on education? Poverty, homelessness, welfare, unemployment, etc. doesn't just go away if you close your eyes, you know.

shinerbock

03-18-2008, 07:17 PM

My point wasn't about homeschooling. I even included it alongside public and private schools. I merely said that I DO think government should maintain some oversight of education, because we all know that without publicly-funded schools, America would be a MESS. Most families nowadays cannot afford to keep one parent home to teach the kids every day for 12 years. And most also can't afford to send their kids to private school for 12 years. So, if the government doesn't mandate that kids are educated, and it therefore stops paying for public schools, what are we to do?

And what do you then propose we do with the adults that are the product of a society that places no real value on education? Poverty, homelessness, welfare, unemployment, etc. doesn't just go away if you close your eyes, you know.

I think the value of education can't be overstated. That said, it isn't the government's responsibility to ensure equality of economic success.

I think oversight in education is fine. I think it should be on a localized level, as communities are much better suited to determine what the needs of local children are. However, I have a serious problem with a state telling parents that they don't trust them to make decisions, regardless of whether the results are satisfactory. I have a fundamental problem with the idea that the state is charged with the responsibility of overseeing child upbringing. If a child can be homeschooled and still meet the thresholds set for children of similar age, then by all means, parents should have the liberty to take their children away from institutionalized education. Is it any surprise that people are reluctant to trust their children to the state of California?

33girl

03-18-2008, 08:53 PM

My point wasn't about homeschooling. I even included it alongside public and private schools. I merely said that I DO think government should maintain some oversight of education, because we all know that without publicly-funded schools, America would be a MESS. Most families nowadays cannot afford to keep one parent home to teach the kids every day for 12 years. And most also can't afford to send their kids to private school for 12 years. So, if the government doesn't mandate that kids are educated, and it therefore stops paying for public schools, what are we to do?

And what do you then propose we do with the adults that are the product of a society that places no real value on education? Poverty, homelessness, welfare, unemployment, etc. doesn't just go away if you close your eyes, you know.

Agree with this whole post. Again, education becomes a luxury that only the rich can afford and if you think jobs are leaving the country NOW - it will only get worse when only a small segment of the populace is educated. I believe the less government the better on pretty much all issues, but not this one.

I think oversight in education is fine. I think it should be on a localized level, as communities are much better suited to determine what the needs of local children are.

I do agree heartily with this statement. Especially in PA, where to say our schools/neighborhoods/localities run the gamut is an understatement and for Harrisburg to make a blanket decision on what's best for all just doesn't make sense. I also think that if parents are more invested in the schools, the schools won't go in the toilet. Then again, we also have school districts that refuse to merge (even if the kids would have more educational and extracurricular opportunities) because OH MY GOD THEN WE WOULDN'T HAVE A FOOTBALL TEAM ANYMORE. But that is another thread.

May I also add that "school choice" only really works in urban environments. If I had "chosen" to go to another school, I would have been on a bus for an hour one way. We did have kids who paid tuition to go to our school (biggest in the county) instead of the district they lived in - but it wasn't because of the academics, it was because we had a baseball program that was sending lots of kids to play college ball (this goes with that other thread).

RushLeader08

03-18-2008, 10:51 PM

o well. everyone knows that homeschool kids are nerds anyway!!!j/k:p

nittanyalum

03-18-2008, 10:57 PM

o well. everyone knows that homeschool kids are nerds anyway!!!j/k:p
Tell that to Tim Tebow.

Army Wife'79

03-18-2008, 11:13 PM

Aren't all the National Spelling Bee winners homeschooled kids? Many Army kids are homeschooled b/c it's a huge goat rope to move from Korea to Germany to Calif to VA to GA and try to keep some consistency in the education. Field trips to the Smithsonian or seeing an art masterpiece in person in Europe is pretty cool compared to just looking at slides or in books. My kids did private and public but I was always prepared to homeschool if the assignment/location warranted it.
On the flip side, I think it's sad and criminal when lunatic parents don't want their kids going to school b/c of the parent's activities (meth labs, abuse, etc.) and they withdraw them saying they will be homeschooled but they sit and watch tv all day and don't actually learn anything. Those parents need some sort of accountability.

Thetagirl218

03-18-2008, 11:47 PM

Wow is all I can say for the responses so far in this thread!

Remember back in the beginning, I said I would eventually share my background on this?

Here it is:

This subject is very near and dear to my heart as I was home schooled since 1st grade up until graduation! It was one of the best experiences of my life! And yes, I did have a choice to be homeschooled or not. In fact, I chose to dual-enroll in college at the age of 16. By the time I was 20, I was done all of my requirements for my degree, and went to complete my teaching internship.

Yes, I said teaching internship. I earned a degree in Secondary Education. I am certified by the State of Florida to teach. So I feel that I have had the best of all worlds. I have been homeschooled, and have taught in both public and private schools. I see the problems and advantages in all three.

As for the issue of home school parents not having the training to teach their children, let me share something from my past. Both of my parents have two year degrees, neither have the proper qualifications in any state to get a teaching certificate, yet I learned so much from them.

Does this mean they knew every thing about every subject? No!

That is why homeschoolers and their parents do think outside of the box and participate in co-ops and other programs where they have classes with people who do have expertise in these subject areas.

And SWTXBELLE is right, home schoolers often rank above the national average in test scores. Stories like mine are not the rare exception as some think.

I also wanted to address that home schoolers for the most part do sit at home in a closet all day. Home schoolers are some of the most active, social people that I know.

AKA_Monet

03-19-2008, 01:34 AM

I think this has something to do with money and how it is doled out to the schools. Every kid that attends public school, the more money the district gets out of the State Tax Pie. Home-schooled kids will mean loss of money.

In California, my mother is a retired elementary principal with a Ph.D. in education. My brother is a principal at a high school in California and his ex-wife is a elementary teacher and resourced teacher in California. If anyone can teach children it is these core of people... I don't know what they will do.

bejazd

03-19-2008, 11:22 AM

I found some stats on the Calif Dept of Education web site that may add to this discussion:

There are 9.674 public schools in Calif with an enrollment of approx 6.3 million students

There are 294,366 public school teachers
The average teacher-pupil ratio is 1 teacher to 21.4 students. (that's an average, obviously some classes are much larger, with the largest classes in grades 4, 5 and 6 at about 1 teacher to 35 students.)

Of those 9674 schools, 585 are charter schools enrolling about 223,000 students.

There are 3506 private schools in Calif enrolling 584,983 students. The majority of children in private schools are in grades K-8, only 159,736 students are enrolled in private high schools. Among the private schools, about 1/3 are very small with just 6-36 total students.

My local newspaper reported earlier in the week that they don't keep records on just how many students in Ca are home schooled, but it's estimated at about 200,000 statewide.

SWTXBelle

03-19-2008, 08:11 PM

The system still receives every cent of my taxes, while not having to provide any services for my children. So, there is more money in the state treasury for education that does not have to be spent on my children. If the problem is how the money is divided, then that needs to be addressed at the state level. But I refuse to feel badly because of the public school systems' mismanagement of funds. The private school at which I taught charged HALF of what the public schools were alloted per student - but that is really a whole 'nuther thread.
Right now I am visiting my folks in Katy, TX, where they literally cannot build schools fast enough - they are bursting at the seams. Were the literally thousands of homeschoolers in the area to register tomorrow, the system could not handle it.
Ultimately, it boils down to this - parents have the ultimate responsibility for their children. It is up to them to decide what is in the best interest of their children - whether it be public or private school, or to teach them at home. I feel that local control is a critical element for public schools - that no one is more committed to seeing local children educated than the principals, teachers, staff, parents and community members who love them and want the best for their community.

macallan25

03-19-2008, 11:52 PM

Every home schooled kid I have ever met was weird and socially inept.

SWTXBelle

03-20-2008, 06:58 AM

33girl

03-20-2008, 09:48 AM

You've obviously not met all that many - or at least, I would say not a representative sample. Most (not all, of course) of the ones I've known have been more socially mature (less social pressure from peers, more interaction with adults).

What an adult finds pleasing and what an adolescent finds pleasing as far as social interaction are two very different things. Trust me, I've been there.

honeychile

03-20-2008, 10:42 AM

I have to respectfully disagree with the "socially inept" part of home schooling. My godson & his brother & sister were all home schooled (in California), up until last year. This was done after the parents made the decision that their children's education was more important than having some of the "extras" of life - in other words, the parents did this sacrificially.

The father became ill (a story unto itself) and so the children were able to be with him up until he passed away - something they would have missed, had they been in a "real school" five days a week. Obviously, once he died, the mother had to go to work, so the kids started attending a private school on scholarship in the fall.

Within the first month of starting school for the first time, Erin was nominated for Homecoming Queen. Another three weeks later, she was a Homecoming Princess, coming in second. Her one brother is the star quarterback, and the other brother will start high school next year after winning the school's Talent Show.

I don't know about the world you all live in, but where I sit, Homecoming Princesses & star quarterbacks aren't considered "socially inept".

GeekyPenguin

03-20-2008, 10:58 AM

I think home schooling is one of those thing it is really hard to make a blanket statement about. I've gone to school with kids who were home schooled for part of their education and adjusted really well into "normal" school life, but those kids were also the ones whose parents made sure their kids played on local sports teams, joined scout troops, and actually taught them a "standard" curriculum. I've also gone to school with kids who were home schooled and were completely socially inept and a little too busy learning the Bible and not learning how to you know, do math or science or have a normal conversation.

My boyfriend has this relative who was home schooled on the farm by parents who only had a high school education - he then went to a correspondence college and correspondence law school. He now is a farmer with more student loan debt than I have. I'm not sure what the point of that was.

ForeverRoses

03-20-2008, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=GeekyPenguin;1621005]I think home schooling is one of those thing it is really hard to make a blanket statement about. I've gone to school with kids who were home schooled for part of their education and adjusted really well into "normal" school life, but those kids were also the ones whose parents made sure their kids played on local sports teams, joined scout troops, and actually taught them a "standard" curriculum. I've also gone to school with kids who were home schooled and were completely socially inept and a little too busy learning the Bible and not learning how to you know, do math or science or have a normal conversation.

QUOTE]

I think you hit the nail on the head-- it all depends on how the child is taught. Do I think the Duggar children that are home schooled are getting the same level of education as SWTXBelle's kids? No. But those differences could be there with schools as well.

honeychile

03-20-2008, 11:36 AM

You said it better than I - it really should be looked at on a case-to-case basis. These kids were encouraged to be in EVERYTHING so that they would be well socialized, same with some of the other homeschoolers I know. Only one of their parents went to college, but they both did take the home schooling classes.

I'm truthfully not sure that I would homeschool - but I would fight as hard as I could for the right to do so.

Munchkin03

03-20-2008, 11:44 AM

My boyfriend has this relative who was home schooled on the farm by parents who only had a high school education - he then went to a correspondence college and correspondence law school. He now is a farmer with more student loan debt than I have. I'm not sure what the point of that was.

CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL?!

GeekyPenguin

03-20-2008, 11:46 AM

CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL?!

For real. We were kind of fascinated by it. Neither of us went to superhoity schools, but at least they're freaking ABA accredited. He was in school the same time as the Conservinator and apparently they had some amusing conversations over school breaks about how Wisconsin was teaching the Conservinator false laws. ;)

The CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL (which should probably always be capitalized) is CA-accredited so the dude could move to CA and try and take that bar, but he doesn't want to leave the family farm.

Munchkin03

03-20-2008, 11:49 AM

honeychile

03-20-2008, 12:05 PM

It's People's College of Law--by mail!

It boggles the mind - how would a graduate question a witness, by mail?

shinerbock

03-20-2008, 12:22 PM

The number of law schools in this country literally needs to be cut in half.

For example:

American Justice School of Law? Seriously? And students were shocked when it took a dive? IT'S CALLED AMERICAN JUSTICE SCHOOL OF LAW.

Xylochick216

03-20-2008, 12:44 PM

Kevin

03-20-2008, 01:05 PM

For real. We were kind of fascinated by it. Neither of us went to superhoity schools, but at least they're freaking ABA accredited. He was in school the same time as the Conservinator and apparently they had some amusing conversations over school breaks about how Wisconsin was teaching the Conservinator false laws. ;)

The CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL (which should probably always be capitalized) is CA-accredited so the dude could move to CA and try and take that bar, but he doesn't want to leave the family farm.

CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL?

University of Phoenix School of Law -- it's only a matter of time.

bejazd

03-20-2008, 01:13 PM

^^^I thought they already had that..

I was actually thinking when I heard about this ruling a few weeks ago that National Univ etc would start offering a speedy quick way to get a "home school" teaching credential.

Thetagirl218

03-20-2008, 02:39 PM

I think there need to be requirements in place for the level of education, etc. for homeschoolers. I know several, and work with several. Some have wonderful educations and probably learn much more than they would in a classroom. Some do whatever the heck they want and are completely socially unprepared. I do some work with some students through a home educators association, and they are very proactive. The students socialize, play sports, etc. Creating a standard of educator for students isn't a bad idea, in my opinion. We want our public school teachers to pass certain qualifications. Shouldn't home school parents do the same to provide a good education? It's in the best interest of the child.

You raise a very valid point. As one who has been homeschooled, and who now is a teacher, I see the need for recruitments.

While I am not versed the education codes of many states, I do know Florida's. In the State of Florida, each child must be registered with the local homeschooling office through the local school board to prevent truancy problems. Each student registered with this office must by the end of the school year complete a benchmark testing that shows that they have learned material and are able to progress to the next grade. This can be in the form of the state test, the F-CAT, or through other standardized testing recognized by the state, or testing done by a private, state certified tutor/tester.

I do know that when I was being homeschooled in the 90s, the state education code for home schooling was actually stricter than the public school code. Of course this was before the days of Jeb Bush, F-CAT hell, and No Child Left Behind.

Munchkin03

03-20-2008, 02:43 PM

CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL?

University of Phoenix School of Law -- it's only a matter of time.

UP scares me. A few people I know have gotten MBAs from there, and maybe I'm just a snob, but I'd rather pay $35K more and get it from a real school where I see my classmates. Just saying.

ZTAMich

03-20-2008, 04:45 PM

The CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOL (which should probably always be capitalized) is CA-accredited so the dude could move to CA and try and take that bar, but he doesn't want to leave the family farm.

Correspondence Law School??? I thought trolls only made that kind of stuff up here on GC? :confused::rolleyes::D

I KNOW there was drama here at least once over someone who was corresponding. Or said she was. Or had gone to 3 different law schools. And held a FT job. Something like that...

UGAalum94

03-20-2008, 05:13 PM

My experience is that kids who enter high school after being home-schooled do well with adults and with kids. (as well or better socially as they would probably have done had they attended public schools; well ahead academically and intellectually.)

I think that being home-schooled through middle school might be one of the best things that could happen to a girl, especially. The socialization that goes on 6-9th is pretty subhuman really, despite middle school teachers' best efforts.

I'm not being critical of parents who send their kids to schools, of course, but a lot of what people believe about home schooled kids has not in any way been reflected in my experience.

Now, kids whose parents pull them out during high school after the kids get in trouble and who then say they being "home schooled" are a totally different and dysfuctional group.

shinerbock

03-20-2008, 05:22 PM

The home-schooled kids I knew were pretty much the same as their other-schooled equivalents. If a guy who was homeschooled was athletic and funny, he was fine socially. If he was a nerd who was homeschooled, he likely wasn't any better off than you're average nerdy guy in a public school.

I haven't come across any home schooled folks where I thought "wow, they'd be pretty socially capable if not for their home schooling."

SWTXBelle

03-20-2008, 05:59 PM

And here's the thing - the same factors that might contribute to a home-schooled student being socially inept might also be the ones that make a public school student the same. No one is arguing that public schooled students are all socially "ept" (it's a joke, it's a joke) - there are many things ranging from parental involvement to shyness to autism( I have a nephew is autistic, but is high functioning enough that people think he is "socially inept"), etc.,etc. that contribute to being socially immature. Sometimes it is just a matter of time passing -we all know people who were awkward in high school who bloomed when they became older. Thank God, the social skills required in middle and high school are not the same as the ones required of adults. I was an awkward drama nerd in high school - and I went to public school. I like to think I grew out of it . . .:rolleyes:
As far as qualifications - again, until the "qualified" teachers of the public education system can produce students who out perform home schooled students on a consistent basis (you can google the research, if you wish) there should be no talk of making parents meet the same requirements as a public school teacher. Most states have basic requirements, and I think it is the states who should dictate what those are.
I don't think standardized tests are in public students' best interests, and I sure don't think trying to hold home schooled students to the same flawed standards is. Too many teachers have to ditch teaching students what they need to know in order to prepare them for tests which will determine funding, job advancement, and the like. I'd hate to see the same thing happen to home schools.
Yes, my daughter did very well on the ACT - but the only prep she did was some sample tests. She did as well as she did because she had a solid foundation, is well-read, and can write.
FYI - my husband once taught a class for the University of Phoenix - it is a giant scam. Surely everyone knows that U of P and Walden University are diploma mills, right? He even wrote an expose' for a national magazine. Stay far, far away from the U of P. Having said that, many well-established universities have great on-line programs.

VandalSquirrel

03-20-2008, 10:01 PM

Every home schooled kid I have ever met was weird and socially inept.

I think home schooling is one of those thing it is really hard to make a blanket statement about. I've gone to school with kids who were home schooled for part of their education and adjusted really well into "normal" school life, but those kids were also the ones whose parents made sure their kids played on local sports teams, joined scout troops, and actually taught them a "standard" curriculum. I've also gone to school with kids who were home schooled and were completely socially inept and a little too busy learning the Bible and not learning how to you know, do math or science or have a normal conversation.

My boyfriend has this relative who was home schooled on the farm by parents who only had a high school education - he then went to a correspondence college and correspondence law school. He now is a farmer with more student loan debt than I have. I'm not sure what the point of that was.

This has been my experience with home schooled kids in college. I do live in a rural and conservative area, so there are many people who are keeping their kids at home for religious reasons and some of those kids FAIL at adjusting to life at the University of Idaho. I will give props to one kid I know who was beyond socially awkward and has made leaps and bounds with adjusting to the real world by attending a public university. He made the conscious choice to join us and even though it causes issues with his Christian beliefs and background, he knows that it will help him function in the world at large.

I'm now curious about the percentage of home school graduates when comparing public and private institutions, and within the private religious denominations.