Minneapolis bridge collapses

[jon1856]

So far three reported dead. School bus on bridge; unknown at this time if occupied. Near Univ of Minnesota.
MINNEAPOLIS (Reuters) - A bridge carrying a four-lane state highway across the Mississippi river in central Minneapolis collapsed during rush hour on Wednesday, plunging cars and trucks into the river.
The bridge carrying Route 35W, which was under repair, buckled and fell into the river at about 6:10 p.m. CDT, local media reported.
Witnesses said they heard a rumbling sound as the bridge collapsed into the river. Local media reported 20 to 30 injuries but initially no deaths.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0123484920070802?feedType=RSS
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/01/bridge.collapse/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291790,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/

[ΣΣΣMagan]

I just heard about this on CNN. This is horrible! My thoughts and praryers are with everyone involved.

[smiley21]

I heard on Fox News that the bus had children on it and they were okay. Then again, so much information is coming and everything is confusing.

[justabeachbrat]

Prayers to all affected by it.

For Ohio, (southestern?) this must be really erie. Some of my relatives come from Point Pleasant (WV), where the sliver bridge (don't know if that was its official name), collapsed into the Ohio River , it connected WV with Gallipolis OH in 1969. It was a major route for east/west trucking and way for workers to the atomic power plant upriver. My great aunt, and grandma had many friends in area. Several people died in collapse. The movie "Mothman Prophicies (sp wrong, i know, spell check is acting up.) was based on folklore surrounding the collapse.

[smiley21]

The movie "Mothman Prophicies (sp wrong, i know, spell check is acting up.) was based on folklore surrounding the collapse.

I was just thinking about this movie. It came on tv last week so I watched it. (I saw it before in the theater). I was watching it thinking how horrible it would be if I was in something like that. Here in Jacksonville, there are a lot of overpasses and ramps popping up everywhere. Several just opened a few days ago. It is one of things that you think about but never really believe that it could happen. I can't imagine what those people experienced today.

[kathykd2005]

This is INSANE! I will definitely be thinking about these people and their families!!!

[justabeachbrat]

I currently live in the central valley. CA. just yesterday, a bridge in a freeway revamping construction project fell down. it is a route I often take. I'd become irritated about the delays caused by the project. Luckily, no one died but a delivery truck driver was badly hurt, and two cops rescued a motorist pinned in the debris, they were on national CBS morning show.

[justabeachbrat]

a clarification....neighbor says what fell down here, central CA, was an overpass.

[GeekyPenguin]

I haven't heard from a ton of my friends yet but nobody's cell phone is able to make a call. My law school is a mile or so from there, it's so scary.

[justabeachbrat]

I haven't heard from a ton of my friends yet but nobody's cell phone is able to make a call. My law school is a mile or so from there, it's so scary.


I hope everyone you know is OK.
any word yet what the cell problem is?

[GeekyPenguin]

I hope everyone you know is OK.
any word yet what the cell problem is?

I would assume it's much like 9/11 where all the circuits are jammed from everyone trying to make calls.

[ISUKappa]

I would assume it's much like 9/11 where all the circuits are jammed from everyone trying to make calls.

I'm glad you're okay. I think this is the only time I'll be glad my friends who lived in the cities moved to AZ this week.

[GeekyPenguin]

I'm glad you're okay. I think this is the only time I'll be glad my friends who lived in the cities moved to AZ this week.

Thanks. I finally got to talk to one of my best friends about two hours after the collapse. He can't get ahold of any of his undergrad fraternity brothers or our law school friends. Apparently medical students from the University of Minnesota came rushing into the river to help.

[kathykd2005]

I would assume it's much like 9/11 where all the circuits are jammed from everyone trying to make calls.

That's just what I told a friend from Minneapolis attempting to call his friends there--it's just like then, the circuits got overloaded and I couldn't get through to my friends and family in NYC, either.

[DeltAlum]

Prayers to all affected by it.

For Ohio, (southestern?) this must be really erie. Some of my relatives come from Point Pleasant (WV), where the sliver bridge (don't know if that was its official name), collapsed into the Ohio River , it connected WV with Gallapolis, OH in 1969. It was a major route for east/west trucking and way for workers to the atomic power plant upriver. My great aunt, and grandma had many friends in area. Several people died in collapse. The movie "Mothman Prophicies (sp wrong, i know, spell check is acting up.) was based on folklore surrounding the collapse.
Southeastern Ohio would be fairly accurate, and the bridge was named The Silver Bridge.

I wonder if your relatives might have known my great aunt and uncle who was the city auditor of Gallipolis at that time.

I remember the incident because I was on the air on a Sunday afternoon at a commercial radio station in Athens, Ohio -- probably 50 miles from Gallipolis. I received a call from the local Ohio State Highway Patrol (Athens) post that the bridge had fallen. Having no way to check myself, I called the Columbus bureau of the Associated Press and the word got out from there. We were the first media outlet to have the story. Of course our news director left for the site immediately. I also called a photographer friend at the Ohio University TV station where I also worked at the time and he shot some of the first footage of the scene. I think the year would have been 1967, though because I was no longer with the station in 1969.

The bridge spanned the Ohio River between Kanauga, Ohio (close to Gallipolis) and Point Pleasant, West Virginia. This event also happened in the late afternoon, and over 40 people were killed.

Here is a link to a story on that disaster.

http://www.wvculture.org/HiStory/disasters/silverbridge03.html

As of 9:00 PM Denver time today, the death toll in Minneapolis stands at seven and authorities expect it to rise.

Fortunately, our neice in the Twin Cities is OK.

I've also driven across the 35W bridge in the past.

[Thetagirl218]

I was just thinking about this movie. It came on tv last week so I watched it. (I saw it before in the theater). I was watching it thinking how horrible it would be if I was in something like that. Here in Jacksonville, there are a lot of overpasses and ramps popping up everywhere. Several just opened a few days ago. It is one of things that you think about but never really believe that it could happen. I can't imagine what those people experienced today.

Going to school in Jacksonville, I thought the same thing. In a city surrounded by bridges and a river, I often think about it. Call me crazy, but I acutally avoid going on a specific bridge in the city (Matthews) because it looks exactly like the old Sunshine Skyway Bridge.

I have been born and raised and Tampa Bay and have grown up hearing the horror stories from my family about the day in 1980 with the Sunshine Skyway got hit by a tanker and over 30 people died!

My prayers go to out to all effected by the bridge collapse !!!

[jon1856]

From what I just heard on CNN, this may collapse MAY BE very closely related to the The Mianus Bridge Collapse:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1984/har8403.htm

Seems as if there was a report in one of the local papers several years ago talking about the possibility of some connectors failing.

[lake]

Sheesh...very scary. I can't believe it! I used that bridge about every single day, back in the day. I just sent an e-mail out to the two people I still keep in close touch with who still live there. And I'm starting to hear welfare reports about others I know more indirectly. But everyone is so inter-related in the Upper Midwest that I'm sure I'll hear about so-and-so who knows or is related to so-and-so had a near miss, etc. Hopefully nothing worse than that.

[smiley21]

Going to school in Jacksonville, I thought the same thing. In a city surrounded by bridges and a river, I often think about it. Call me crazy, but I acutally avoid going on a specific bridge in the city (Matthews) because it looks exactly like the old Sunshine Skyway Bridge.



I hate Matthews. I am just glad that I rarely used that bridge. It is so old and even with all the repairs that is going on, the bridge makes me nervous.

[AGDee]

I truly feel for all those directly affected. I know that the kids on the school bus are physically ok, I hope they aren't too traumatized by this. I have a bridge phobia already and this just reinforces it.. eek. So scary.

[_Lisa_]

I've sent a text to a good friend of mine that lives in Minneapolis, she had an interview yesterday afternoon so I imagine she was out & about when this happened, I just don't know if she was on that bridge. I haven't heard back from her yet, but I don't have any other way to get in touch with her at the moment.

My thoughts & prayers are with the injured & families of lost loved ones.

[OrigamiTulip]

I hate Matthews. I am just glad that I rarely used that bridge. It is so old and even with all the repairs that is going on, the bridge makes me nervous.

The Matthews is a little scary with that open grate instead of a concrete road, but since I had to cross it every day for 7 years (went to school downtown and lived in Arlington) I kind of got used to it. The bridge that really wigged me out is the Main Street bridge, becasue it seemed like every time the center was lifted when it was foggy, people would just drive right off it.

[Scandia]

I wonder if my family drove over that bridge in 1993 when we crossed the Mississippi from Wisconsin to Minnesota.

No new casualties as of now, thank goodness.

[smiley21]

It is a miracle that all 60 kids on that school bus made it out alive.

[GeekyPenguin]

I wonder if my family drove over that bridge in 1993 when we crossed the Mississippi from Wisconsin to Minnesota.

No new casualties as of now, thank goodness.

The Mississippi does not run between Wisconsin and Minnesota that far north, the St. Croix does. I-35 also does not go in Wisconsin.

[GeekyPenguin]

I've sent a text to a good friend of mine that lives in Minneapolis, she had an interview yesterday afternoon so I imagine she was out & about when this happened, I just don't know if she was on that bridge. I haven't heard back from her yet, but I don't have any other way to get in touch with her at the moment.

My thoughts & prayers are with the injured & families of lost loved ones.

Text messaging is incredibly incredibly slow. I am a few area codes away from the cities for the summer but because I have a 612 number I still am having a hard time making/receiving calls.

[_Lisa_]

Text messaging is incredibly incredibly slow. I am a few area codes away from the cities for the summer but because I have a 612 number I still am having a hard time making/receiving calls.

I had a feeling they would be, so instead of trying to call her every few minutes I'm just going to wait until she gets the text or I see her online. She hasn't been online since, which is unusual for her, so I'm just anxious to find out if she is OK.

[GeekyPenguin]

I had a feeling they would be, so instead of trying to call her every few minutes I'm just going to wait until she gets the text or I see her online. She hasn't been online since, which is unusual for her, so I'm just anxious to find out if she is OK.

If you want to tell me in a PM where she lives or works or goes to school (if you know) I can tell you if it was likely she took that bridge.

[PM_Mama00]

Even though they are very new, and they took forever to build them, this makes me freak out even more going over that expressway bridge in Ohio. The one where a few people died while building it? I think it's 280. It goes to the Ohio Turnpike. It is seriously so high up and if something like this were to happen, most likely everyone would die.

[_Lisa_]

If you want to tell me in a PM where she lives or works or goes to school (if you know) I can tell you if it was likely she took that bridge.

She just replied to my text! Thanks for the offer though, she said that she avoids the construction when headed south(?) although she had used it earlier in the day on her way to her interview. It is just such a relief to finally hear from her! :D

[Drolefille]

My sister is up in MN this summer but thankfully she was no where near the river or this bridge.

I hope they've found everyone :(

[adpiucf]

I haven't been able to get in touch with a friend of mine who lives there. I hope it is just because the lines are tied up. He never turns off his cell...

[justabeachbrat]

correcting myself. silver bridge, over ohio river, collapsed in 1967, should have googled it. it was before my time. yesterday's collapse prompted phone calls between my mom and friends still living back there (ohio). my older brother, although just a kid then, remembers my mom staying up all night when the silver bridge went down, calling people in her hometown trying to find out how everyone was. the father of one of her school friends died and a friend of hers was on bridge, and survived.

with the drivers going in today in minneapolis, prayers again for that city.

[ForeverRoses]

correcting myself. silver bridge, over ohio river, collapsed in 1967, should have googled it. it was before my time. yesterday's collapse prompted phone calls between my mom and friends still living back there (ohio). my older brother, although just a kid then, remembers my mom staying up all night when the silver bridge went down, calling people in her hometown trying to find out how everyone was. the father of one of her school friends died and a friend of hers was on bridge, and survived.

with the drivers going in today in minneapolis, prayers again for that city.

I remember hearing about that bridge collapse. They had a 25year rememberance thing when I was in college. They showed all of the old news reports.

I cannot imagine what it is like to be looking for a family member. I don't know what would be worse- knowing that they were gone, or not knowing either way.

[ADPiAkron]

This is so scary...

My sister lives in Minneapolis- she contacted us by email right away to let us know her and her boyfriend were ok. No one could get through when trying to call her due to the phone lines being jammed. She doesn't travel that highway daily for work- but travels it at other times to get around town. Her boyfriend on the other hand drives that way home from work everyday- he decided to stop and get a drink after work last night- so we will never know if he would have been on the bridge when it collapsed...and I am happy to never have to know!

*Thinking of those who have lost someone in this tragedy. May God be with them at this difficult time.*

[jon1856]

Trafficland (a web traffic camera site) has a live camera aimed right at the bridge-I have to wonder it anyone was viewing it last night:
http://www.trafficland.com/#start

[DeltAlum]

correcting myself. silver bridge, over ohio river, collapsed in 1967, should have googled it. it was before my time. yesterday's collapse prompted phone calls between my mom and friends still living back there (ohio). my older brother, although just a kid then, remembers my mom staying up all night when the silver bridge went down, calling people in her hometown trying to find out how everyone was. the father of one of her school friends died and a friend of hers was on bridge, and survived.
If you're interested, I posted a link to some Silver Bridge information earlier in this thread. (on page 1)

ETA that two things occurred to me. Earlier, I said that the Silver Bridge collapse was on Sunday. I thought that because I was working at the radio station mostly on weekends at that point. The disaster actually was Friday, December 15. That would make sense, because I volunteered to work at the station over Christmas Break that year so another staff member could go home and see his family. The collapse happened just after 5:00 PM, so everyone else had gone home for the day.

Second, it struck me that the 35W bridge was completed and opened to traffic in 1967 -- the same year as the Silver Bridge collapse.

[GeekyPenguin]

Trafficland (a web traffic camera site) has a live camera aimed right at the bridge-I have to wonder it anyone was viewing it last night:
http://www.trafficland.com/#start

KARE-11, a local TV Station, has several cameras aimed there with better vantage points if you know where to click.

http://www.kare11.com/travel/traffic/

Click on the tab that says "Cameras" and then anywhere on 35 between 94 and 36.

[jon1856]

Minnesota officials were warned as early as 1990 that the bridge that collapsed into the Mississippi River was "structurally deficient," yet they relied on patchwork repairs and stepped-up inspections that unraveled amid a thunderous plunge of concrete and automobiles.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6005140/

[jon1856]

KARE-11, a local TV Station, has several cameras aimed there with better vantage points if you know where to click.

http://www.kare11.com/travel/traffic/

Click on the tab that says "Cameras" and then anywhere on 35 between 94 and 36.

I just found the CNN video showing the collapse:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/08/02/vosli.mn.i35w.bridge.collapse.side.view.cnn?iref=m pvideosview

[lake]

That video is pretty phenomenal. I wonder was it taken from the North or from the South? The North side fell first, right?

[adpiucf]

I heard from my friend. He is ok! He actually went over the bridge just 1 HOUR before the collapse!!!

[justabeachbrat]

I heard from my friend. He is ok! He actually went over the bridge just 1 HOUR before the collapse!!!

Glad to hear that.....


And DeltAlum...tried to quote part of your post, zapped it away.
This is a small world getting smaller. Re: Gallipolis, Point Pleasant.
My mom and aunt are heading for a cruise (which sounds good in this stupid heat). Will ask when they get back. My dad was from a big family, but he died awhile back, and after my parents divorced when I was pre teen, the connection with his side of the family was lost. I hear that many in his family are now in Cleveland and (??) newark.

I spent a summer with my grandparents, also deceased, before going into high school. Their house faced a park in town. It is ridiculous how lacking in family history I am.

[KSig RC]

Minnesota officials were warned as early as 1990 that the bridge that collapsed into the Mississippi River was "structurally deficient," yet they relied on patchwork repairs and stepped-up inspections that unraveled amid a thunderous plunge of concrete and automobiles.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6005140/

This is a complete misrepresentation of what those words mean to actual civil engineers.

Just saying.

[DeltAlum]

"State transportation officials were warned as early as 1990 that the 40-year-old bridge was "structurally deficient" and in need of major repair or even replacement.

Federal inspectors gave the same forecast in 2005, but state engineers say the span was not slated for replacement until 2020.




This is a complete misrepresentation of what those words mean to actual civil engineers.
I don't know what they might mean to a civil engineer, but I'll bet a lot of judges and juries are going to hear them in the not too distant future.

[Tom Earp]

What is sad, is the state of roads and bridges in this country!:mad:

The first Inter-State was under DDE as Presidents Adm.

It was started for Military situations and was begun in Ks. I-70.

So, it was expanded to what We know as the Super Highways of today that We all enjoy!

But, they are going to crap and who pays for it?

Either We do or there are deaths such as these and it will not be the last!

States raise taxes and miss use them, period! Oh don't forget about poor contractors and shoddy construction such as the Big Did in Boston!:mad:

Scarry isn't it?

How many Bridges or shitty Highways do you drive on?:mad:

[DeltAlum]

Am I the only one who thinks about this?

As I have traveled across the country, I have wondered how much our infrastructure cost to build, and how much it would be to replace it.

It was really brought home to me when I was living in New York City and considering how old everything looks.

The collapse of the steam tunnel there, and now this bridge episode in Minnesota have really brought those thoughts home.

The overall situation is really scary.

How in the world can we ever replace this stuff as it just simply wears out?

[kathykd2005]

Am I the only one who thinks about this?

As I have traveled across the country, I have wondered how much our infrastructure cost to build, and how much it would be to replace it.

It was really brought home to me when I was living in New York City and considering how old everything looks.

The collapse of the steam tunnel there, and now this bridge episode in Minnesota have really brought those thoughts home.

The overall situation is really scary.

How in the world can we ever replace this stuff as it just simply wears out?

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...

[DeltAlum]

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...
I'll leave it to the engineering folks to figure that out.

I'm talking about replacing the stuff -- not sticking on a band-aid.

Sooner or later, band-aids don't help anymore.

[kathykd2005]

I'll leave it to the engineering folks to figure that out.

I'm talking about replacing the stuff -- not sticking on a band-aid.

Sooner or later, band-aids don't help anymore.


Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...

[DeltAlum]

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...
That's another piece of the equation.

[kathykd2005]

That's another piece of the equation.

It sure is--and how about people debating raising taxes in order to replace all of the bridges and roads? It's hard enough to get people to accept the taxes they already have. I personally wouldn't mind paying higher taxes for these things, but a lot of people would have a HUGE problem with it. I don't even want to think about how people would react if their government started redoing every bridge, overpass, or highway in their area... I have construction on the road where I live, and they are ripping apart people's yards, having to pay police to direct traffic, and real estate isn't selling because no one wants to live by the construction. Just thinking about a project that massive makes me cringe... :eek:

[jon1856]

Am I the only one who thinks about this?

As I have traveled across the country, I have wondered how much our infrastructure cost to build, and how much it would be to replace it.

It was really brought home to me when I was living in New York City and considering how old everything looks.

The collapse of the steam tunnel there, and now this bridge episode in Minnesota have really brought those thoughts home.

The overall situation is really scary.

How in the world can we ever replace this stuff as it just simply wears out?
CBS-Radio had a report the other day that put the cost at $5,500.00 per person in the US. Not sure if that was everyone or "taxpaying Adults".
It was over a Trillion dollars.
As someone else posted, states have used monies that were "dedicated" to road/highway/bridge repair for everything else.

As we as voters have been "taught" over the past several years to think that no tax raises or lower taxes would be good for us all.

[jon1856]

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...
Search "Tappan Zee Bridge" under both news and web for insight.

[kathykd2005]

Search "Tappan Zee Bridge" under both news and web for insight.

I live in the tri-state area. Which article, exactly, are you referring to?

[jon1856]

I live in the tri-state area. Which article, exactly, are you referring to?
Just about any of them in the past few years.
Has been in the papers everyday since Minneapolis.
Many stories about: the need to replace it.
The hows and whys.
Those for and against every how and why.
The hows and whys of just repairing it to keep
it in one piece until it is replaced.

Bottom line: The bridge was made on the cheap, has out lasted
its life expectancy, and falling apart everyday.

[kathykd2005]

Just about any of them in the past few years.
Has been in the papers everyday since Minneapolis.
Many stories about: the need to replace it.
The hows and whys.
Those for and against every how and why.
The hows and whys of just repairing it to keep
it in one piece until it is replaced.

Bottom line: The bridge was made on the cheap, has out lasted
its life expectancy, and falling apart everyday.


True--but like I said earlier, who is going to pay for this? Will budgets be re-adjusted in order to do so? We'll see what happens. I have no idea, I just know that the situation in Minneapolis has sparked a lot of energy on the topic.

[AGDee]

Random thoughts here...

When they replaced the Rouge River Bridge in Detroit (part of I-75), from what I can remember, they built the bridge and rebuilt part of the freeway and then connected those to the old freeway. You can still see a draw bridge next to the original. I think they did this with the big Zilwaukee bridge over the Saginaw River up north. This can lead to minimal traffic disruption. It's not like the old bridge was out of commission the whole time the new one was being built. That was happening on either I-75 or 280 in Toledo also.

I saw a poll on some news channel yesterday "Should we pay for health care or fixing infrastructure like bridges?" My answer would be BOTH, instead of some of the other junk we pay for. Maybe that bridge to nowhere shoulda been somewhere else.

Infrastructure, if done right, seems like it should last a very long time. Pyramids? Isn't the basic infrastructure in Europe much older than ours? It seems like if it is maintained properly, it could last.

I agree that structurally deficient probably means something very different to civil engineers than it sounds to us. In my experience with inspections in health care, it is their job to find deficiencies and they will find some deficiency no matter what. The level of deficiency will vary and the number will vary, but every hospital in the country gets Type I and Type II recommendations from JCAHO. (Type I being more major than Type II). If a bad thing happened at any given hospital and those accreditation inspection reports were pulled, it would sound bad to lay people, I think.

[PM_Mama00]

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

[Drolefille]

St. Louis decided that they were going to completely redo 64/40 because of its age. While I can't remembr if they decided for sure, the options were 3-4 years if they did it in pieces, and 2 years if they just shut the whole thing down. Either way traffic was going to suck, so you might as well go all out. Yeah, people are going to get upset but usually you tell them "we do this or you will die" and they go along with it. Interestingly they'd just worked on all the overpasses on 40 before announcing this. I'm willing to bet they found a few they didn't like.

Also when it comes to bridges, you're not always suck rebuilding a bridge in the same place. Hannibal, MO built a new bridge across the Mississippi some distance away from the old one. That was easier than trying to renovate the old one or completely shut down travel across the river.

[DeltAlum]

They just finished what was supposed to be a seven year project widening I-25 (the Valley Highway) from the Denver Tech Center to Downtown. They did a really good job, I think. The contract called for at least three lanes to be open each way most of the day (there were a few overnights -- like midnight to 5:00 AM when it was down to two lanes -- and a couple of short distance total closures overnight) and replaced ALL of the bridges going over the highway along with most of the on and off ramps. They also added Light Rail the entire length of the project. It was called T-Rex which might give some idea of what was expected.

They managed to finish it more than a year early, and under budget.

It's not that there weren't hassles, nor was the job without problems, but given how screwed up it could have made things, I was pretty impressed.

I think this was the same company that re-built a lot of the freeways in Salt Lake City prior to the Olympics, which I hear was a headache of gigantic proportions.

They must have learned from their mistakes.

[Tom Earp]

Because of this, K C metro area is re upping bridge inspectiions!

@ 10 have been targeted and I know them all very well. Some are really scarry!

Talked with a friend who is a KsDot engineer and project coordinater and what he tells me makes me worry even more! All of these have been patched over for years and years. All of these bridges are over either the Kansas or Missouri Rivers.

Talk about patch work on highways, I-70 and I-435 are continually being worked on for the simple reason some moron decided re-bar was not needed! A new concept! What a disaster. Re-bar helps the concrete stay more stable.

St. Louis Bridges have been in terrible shape for years. The one over the Mississippi River that carries I-70, wow does it need help!

Was it the Eads Street Bridge that was closed so many years open up yet?

States just are not putting money in to infrastructure and the Federal Govt. is running out of money for their big fund also.

Amazing that Pork barreling is still big but for some funky things. Oh, to be PC, they are called ear marks now!

[kathykd2005]

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

I didn't say that I wanted people to die, or that I'd flip out, I just said government will have a hard time getting all of this stuff passed, since people will flip out, and make it hard to do... There wasn't really a need to give the ultimatum of people "flipping out, or people dying."

[DeltAlum]

...I just said government will have a hard time getting all of this stuff passed, since people will flip out, and make it hard to do...
Clearly and understatement.

We seem to want everything..but don't want to pay for any of it.

It just doesn't work that way.

[jon1856]

True--but like I said earlier, who is going to pay for this? Will budgets be re-adjusted in order to do so? We'll see what happens. I have no idea, I just know that the situation in Minneapolis has sparked a lot of energy on the topic.
I agree. I do not see everyone opening up their check books to write a $5,500.00 check to the government anytime soon.

But we do have to realize that what "we have been trained to think" just maybe wrong. How many years have gone by that we have been told that taxes are evil, that taxes will not be raised, that taxes will be lowered et al.

Yet we still want and need our services. We still have to pay for government operations et al.

Perhaps it is time to review tax laws and codes and how they are used and mis-used.

Perhaps it is time to ask official and politicians, at all levels, why monies from dedicated highway funds are either not being used or if used mis-used.

[kathykd2005]

I agree. I do not see everyone opening up their check books to write a $5,500.00 check to the government anytime soon.

But we do have to realize that what "we have been trained to think" just maybe wrong. How many years have gone by that we have been told that taxes are evil, that taxes will not be raised, that taxes will be lowered et al.

Yet we still want and need our services. We still have to pay for government operations et al.

Perhaps it is time to review tax laws and codes and how they are used and mis-used.

Perhaps it is time to ask official and politicians, at all levels, why monies from dedicated highway funds are either not being used or if used mis-used.

Again, as I said earlier, I have no problems with raising taxes to pay for repairs to our highways and bridges. As I said earlier, other people, who you yourself have cited, WILL have a problem with taxes being raised. Perhaps it is time for society to re-assess how they view taxes and their purpose--I completely agree, and have for a long time...

[kathykd2005]

Clearly and understatement.

We seem to want everything..but don't want to pay for any of it.

It just doesn't work that way.


Agreed--people do want everything and don't want to pay for it. As I said earlier--several times--I would be willing to pay higher taxes for services like repairs to highways and bridges; however, others may not feel the same way. It seems those of us posting in this thread are all coming from the same place and are on the same page.

[DeltAlum]

It seems those of us posting in this thread are all coming from the same place and are on the same page.
I wonder.

Let's take a real infomal, unscientific poll.

How many who read this thread would approve of a fairly substantial tax increase in order to replace decaying infrastructure?

I would.

[kathykd2005]

Put it up as a poll, see what happens...;)

[DeltAlum]

Put it up as a poll, see what happens...;)
Anybody know how to do that without starting a new thread? I don't.

[PM_Mama00]

I wonder.

Let's take a real infomal, unscientific poll.

How many who read this thread would approve of a fairly substantial tax increase in order to replace decaying infrastructure?

I would.

I vote for us to pull the hell out of Iraq, stop spending money on this bullshit, and use that money to pay for the decaying infrastructure. I vote to worry about our own country.

[AGDee]

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

I vote for us to pull the hell out of Iraq, stop spending money on this bullshit, and use that money to pay for the decaying infrastructure. I vote to worry about our own country.

Ok, I have to admit, that construction caused me bunches of stress. So much so, that I changed my hours to reduce the amount of traffic rage that I have to deal with on a daily basis. On top of that, every week.. every single week, some semi gets in an accident in this zone and the whole freeway has to shut down for hours and hours and, in most of the cases, someone was killed. There's got to be a safer way to go about that construction! But, I decided to stop griping about the whole thing after the bridge collapse. I just think that particular construction zone, the way it was set up, should have been CLOSED TO TRUCK TRAFFIC.

I also think that we are paying for a heck of a lot of stuff that I consider less important than the basic infrastructure. I'm not opposed to some tax increases to cover this, if I were convinced that the waste was cut from the budget first. It's not as if all of it has to be replaced immediately so the $5500 per person could be stretched out over say.. 10 years. $550 a person a year isn't that much.

[KSig RC]

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...

There's almost no chance, according to structural engineers, that a 4-inch gap in the roadway caused the bridge to fail. This was the work performed by the construction crew, according to reports.

The roadway construction really has nothing to do with the integrity of the structure, which is based on force elements of the truss and it's connection with the roadway on each side of the river and via the infamous "ten pins" across the span.

The very existence of the roadway crew on the bridge is likely an unfortunate strawman that will cause debate like this (and even the civil cases Delt mentioned), instead of discovery of the actual cause and problems that likely exist in other, similar bridges.

[kathykd2005]

There's almost no chance, according to structural engineers, that a 4-inch gap in the roadway caused the bridge to fail. This was the work performed by the construction crew, according to report.

I believe it was a bit more complicated than a "4-inch gap" as you so gingerly put it. Both of these stories cite numerous problems with the bridge, most likely aggravated by the construction on the bridge:

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_217151047.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/326288_bridge03.html

In the second article, an expert states,
"I would be stunned if this didn't have something to do with the construction project," said David Schulz, director of the Infrastructure Technology Institute at Northwestern University. "I think it's a major factor."

Although there is evidence for both sides of this argument, your assertion that the viewpoint I offered is completely unfounded is ridiculous. Experts, including "engineers," as you stated, are still not sure what caused the collapse. I was simply stating my own suspicions... :rolleyes:

[KSig RC]

I believe it was a bit more compliated than a "4-inch gap" as you so gingerly put it. Both of these stories cite numerous problems with the bridge, most likely aggravated by the construction on the bridge:c

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_217151047.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/326288_bridge03.html

In the second article, an expert states,
"I would be stunned if this didn't have something to do with the construction project," said David Schulz, director of the Infrastructure Technology Institute at Northwestern University. "I think it's a major factor."

Although there is evidence for both sides of this argument, your assertion that the viewpoint I offered is completely unfounded is ridiculous. Experts, including "engineers," as you stated, are still not sure what caused the collapse. I was simply stating my own suspicions... :rolleyes:

OK - I should have been more specific, and I meant to point out a larger issue rather than acting like your suspicions were "unfounded" (everyone's are, at this point, honestly - nothing wrong with that). My bad - I really didn't mean for it to be that 'pointed' or specific to your views.

The construction itself was moderately superficial - however, there was a lot of equipment on the scene, much of it very heavy equipment, and the work went on around the clock. Could the excess weight have contributed? Surely - that's one current avenue of exploration.

Did the construction exacerbate an existing problem? This seems intuitively likely. However, we've all seen construction on bridges where part of the roadbed has been removed, altered or worked on - it's clear this doesn't usually cause the bridge to fail (which is what I meant before).

I really meant my point as more of a diatribe against news sources like CNN and FOX, which have ran wild with speculation rather than news reporting. FOX particularly ran with several "eye witness" interviews and speculation about the road construction, which should have been 'routine' (obviously), that seemed to blame the construction workers for making some catastrophic error . . . likely the problem was much more insidious than a simple worker error, though. It's just bizarre, to me.

I guess this might be something where I have deeper concerns - does the state (or the construction contractor) really check the interactions between roadway equipment, actual work and traffic with the existing structure? Do we go into a panic mode and alter every bridge with "structurally deficient" ratings (even though these are supposedly traversable)? Don't these two issues intersect in a potentially harmful way?

Again, sorry to sound like I wanted to single you out - but yeah, around here people are panicking every time a construction crew removes part of a roadbed. It just seems like it's a symptom of a larger problem, and I should have been more transparent with that thought.

Similarly, the shock-value headlines decrying the bridge's condition as "structurally deficient" really seem set to cause an uproar - and, granted, it sucks that such harsh terms are used, because it kind of invites these sort of reactions, but no one thought anything of this until a bunch of people died/got hurt. It's kind of sick, really.

[kathykd2005]

Agreed--it seems that it takes a travesty these days for most people to pay attention to obvious dangers... It really is sick.

[OneTimeSBX]

I vote for us to pull the hell out of Iraq, stop spending money on this bullshit, and use that money to pay for the decaying infrastructure. I vote to worry about our own country.
AMEN!!!

[DeltAlum]

I really meant my point as more of a diatribe against news sources like CNN and FOX, which have ran wild with speculation rather than news reporting. FOX particularly ran with several "eye witness" interviews and speculation about the road construction, which should have been 'routine' (obviously), that seemed to blame the construction workers for making some catastrophic error . . . likely the problem was much more insidious than a simple worker error, though. It's just bizarre, to me.
I have to admit that even after many years working in TV, I have to just shake my head in wonder when reporters and media outlets feel like they must assign blame within hours after an event happens.

When will we learn that investigations, especially ones as complex as this or a plane crash or whatever, take time? This kind of desire for instant analysis leads to some really bad reporting.

Linda Ellerby tells the story of a local reporter at a news conference only hours after an airplane crash pushing the medical examiner again and again for a "cause of death." Finally, in frustration, the doctor said, "Lady, the airplane stopped and the people didn't."

As KSig has pointed out, maintenance (It's really maintenance rather than "construction" isn't it?) is carried out daily on bridges all over the world without catastrophic results. If the maintenance really had anything to do with this collapse, it seems to me that it would more likely due to exascerbatie a serious problem that was already existing -- possibly for a long time -- than being the "reason" for the failure.

One thing I have noticed is that the "obvious" is very often not the culprit when the results of the investigation are finally released. The NTSB and other agencies will take the time necessary to try to find a cause for this tragedy, and nothing we say or do will speed up the investigative process.

[jon1856]

Many of these Op-Ed observations are both touching and pointed.
http://cagle.com/news/BridgeCollapse/main.asp

[DeltAlum]

Two more bodies found today.

[AlethiaSi]

Two more bodies found today.

were they from that car they couldn't get to, that was buried underneath another car? so sad :(

[lake]

When does school start again at the U? Has there been any talk about how this will affect things there - since the campus and Dinkytown are RIGHT THERE? I can't imagine the hassles...

[GeekyPenguin]

When does school start again at the U? Has there been any talk about how this will affect things there - since the campus and Dinkytown are RIGHT THERE? I can't imagine the hassles...

I think they start right after Labor Day - I know recruitment is the 15th-23rd, not that that helps too much...

It looks like they have some info about it on their website here (http://www1.umn.edu/twincities/09_emergency.php). I know most of the people I know there use the Washington bridge the most (the double-decker one for vehicles and pedestrians) so maybe people will detour out of the way a little?