GEORGE IS THE PRESIDENT ELECT!!!!

[Dewgirl]

Bush-Cheney win!!!!!

Woo Hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Franny Granny]

The state of
Texas, under the leadership of
Governor George W. Bush,
is
ranked:

50th in spending for teachers' salaries
49th in spending
on the environment
48th in per-capita funding for public health
47th in
delivery of social services
42nd in child-support collections
41st in
per-capita spending on public education

And ...

5th in percentage
of population living in poverty
1st in air and water pollution
1st in
percentage of poor working parents without insurance
1st in percentage of
children without health insurance
1st in executions (average 1 every 2 weeks
for Bush's 5 years as Governor

Well....

[theXgirl]

I don't see anything to be happy about...

[IowaHawkeye]

thank goodness they're recounting the ballots in florida.... this might not be over yet... those texas numbers are SCARY!!!

[mgdzkm433]

I'm very glad they are recounting the votes. If Bush becomes president, I will genuinely be scared, not that I'm a Gore supporter, but the idea of Bush ultimatly scares the socks off of me.

[AXO Alum]

As usual statistics do not lie, but they can be manipulated! I have an undergrad in psych, and a masters degree which both required me to eat, live, sleep, and breathe statistics for 6 years straight. Here's an example of the numbers in relationship to child insurance - Texas is a border state. How many illegal immigrants come into Texas and set up housing somewhere and go unnoticed by anyone? Then one day their child gets sick, and they take him or her to the local hospital --- where, it turns out, the child has no health insurance. Of course he doesn't - his family is living here illegally which makes it pretty hard to have insurance. So the stats are correct when they read 1st w/out child health insurance - but they have been manipulated by not revealing the whole truth. Just rattling off a statistic here and there is pointless unless you know all the factors. It's like judging a book by its cover - the title may sound great and wonderful, but the material behind it may suck.

Here's another point...who is producing these statistics? Last I checked there was no National Truth in Statistics Board that published unbiased stats on every topic. Everyone has an agenda - depending on that agenda is the way the stats will read. Who paid for the research? Who will gain from it? Many times education proponents who need more money for whatever purpose will not just say "we need 10 more classrooms" - that may get them the $$$ they need but no more. So instead they'll say "15% of our children have to stand up in class because there aren't enough chairs for them." And then we all ooh-and-ahh over this tragedy (of course - who wants our kids standing up). But then when you look into it, you may see that the 15% doesn't just include one school, or district, or even county. For all we know it could include an entire state, which would be true to the stats (but not necessarily that the kids in my county are standing up). So then our local taxes go up to pay for something that may not truly be affecting us (on the local level).

So you have to know the whole story before you can be swayed by statistics. Have your opinion - but it should be an educated one that has formed as a result of knowing the issues and how they will affect you and your community personally.

As far as the election goes - I think it says a lot that Al had already conceded to George, and then recanted. I will say that regardless of the winner, I am anxiously awaiting the Constitutional Amendment that will abolish the Electoral College. I have never met anyone who approved of our current process, and would be happy to hear from anyone that does. I think it should be the popular vote. The voice of the people.

[LadyAKA]

Anyway ............. Bush IS very COCKY, to say the least and he takes to much PRIDE and JOY in his death penalty state, he smiles at the mere mention of execution, and government mandated death is a very scary thing. He does not care about African Americans and affirmative action, look at how he treated the Byrd family!!! Now, I am a Christian black women with high ethical and moral standards, and don't want to bring any one persons name down, as a matter of fact none of these candidates (including stupid Nader) are God's gift to us, but George W Bush is the devil. And of course that is just MY honest opinion ....take it or leave it, but Gore Supporters please pray and make this thing turn out RIGHT!!!!

[AXO Alum]

I don't understand why people continue to think that Al Gore is against the death penalty - HE IS NOT and this was stated numerous times throughout the campaign. I am very strong in my opinion of the death penalty: You do the crime, you pay the price! It is true - there is no justice in the death penalty because a murderer who takes the life of another person, especially in the most heinous of crimes, deserves to be put to death in the same manner. But until people realize that murderers have NO rights the death penalty is the closest thing to justice we have. Who wants to stand here and tell those families in Oklahoma that the bombers that destroyed their life, don't deserve to die? What about 12 year old Polly Klaas' family - she was raped and murdered by a convicted and released child molestor - oh yeah - he was reformed! Whatever! And I am a Christian with strong ethical and moral values which is why I voted for Bush. I could never with a clear conscience vote for a man who tells me the life of a child in the womb is disposable (i.e., Al Gore) - that IN MY OPINION is the devil at hand. No - Gore is not the devil, and I do not resort to labeling that serious of a term onto people.

How, you may ask, is it possible to be pro-life and be pro-death penalty? Its a matter of innocence and guilt!

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by Little32:

AXO Alum- We have all heard the statistics speech before. As a Christian doesn't your bible tell you that vengeance belongs to God?

And we have all heard the statistics before too! What experience have you had with statistical research? I have had enough to know that the stats that are turned out don't make it the gospel truth. And speaking of gospel truth - in my Bible, Jesus tells his followers to obey the laws of man while serving Him. (Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.....) I've stated WHY I believe Bush is the best choice based on the ISSUES - I have not resorted to name calling (what is up with this Dubya thing?) and I have not based my opinion on things like "Bush blinks too much" - who cares? The issues are what matter. It is out of all of our hands now. What's done is done since the voting is over. Let them count the vote and determine the winner whether Gore or Bush. You have been on me about this from the other thread because heaven forbid someone disagree with you and back it up with FACTS! If Gore is elected, then I will continue to be strong to my party and make him follow through on his promises to the people (especially the senior citizens). I will not move to another country, and I won't lay in bed crying over it. And I specifically stated before that I think regardless of the winner the electoral college should be dissolved. It should be popular vote.

So you, Little32, should have no more questions for me since you have seen why I feel as strongly as I do based on my opinion which is based on my interpretation of the issues. If so, please email me directly so we don't have to go through our philosophical differences in the public forum.

[Franny Granny]

"I have an undergrad in psych, and a masters degree which both required me to eat, live, sleep, and breathe statistics for 6 years straight."

I don't have the time or the inclination to get into a "look at me, I eat statistics and studied this or that more than you..nah nah nah nah nah" debate. I just put it out there for you and anyone else out there reading these boards to see. End of story.

If you DON'T think that Jeb had a hand in the politiking going on in Florida...PLEASE take your blinders off. Hey but if you choose not to...that's okay too. I'm not in here to sway anybody's opinion.

And lastly G-Dub---Dubya---whatever you want to call him (and Dubya is the way that ol' Georgey boy says his own middle name, HE SAID IT I DIDN'T hahahahahahahahaha) IMHO is not the right man to lead my country. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Little32]

AXO Alum,
I did not expect that you would get so hot and bothered. That is a question that I ask of any and all Christians who believe in the death penalty and I have received a variety of responses. It was really a rhetorical question. I don't wish to debate religion with you so I will leave it at that.

I truthfully don't wish to email you privately concerning anything. I don't have much experience with statistics, but we all have heard how easily they can be manipulated to paint just about any picture you want. I was merely saying that everyone knows that statistics should be taken with a grain of salt and they are not gospel.

Dubya (W) is a term that has been widely used by the press to refer to George's middle name. I like it, I think it fits, I use it.

Yes, we had a debate on the other thread, but I, from my end, took it as a civilized discussion. It is not my fault that you choose to get worked up over the comments of an individual that you don't know at all. Just as you are allowed your opinion, I am allowed mine and just because we disagree does not mean that I am attacking you as a human being. I DON'T KNOW YOU. YOU DONT'T KNOW ME. Why in the world should my comments either way matter so much to you.

[This message has been edited by Little32 (edited November 08, 2000).]

[ZetaAce]

Howdy,

Let's all stick to discussing the topic in a civilized manner, ok? Thanks!

Your Moderator,
ZetaAce

------------------
FinerWomanhood (http://www.finerwoman.com): Learn it, Live it, Love it!

[mgdzkm433]

well, at this point, I don't care if tweedle dee or tweedle dum win. They are both the same to me. I voted Nader, and I'm glad I voted my concious.

We are living through history here. It's pretty cool if you think about it. This election will go down as one of the most historic because of the Pat B. incident in FL. How many people walked in and thought they were voting for Gore, when they actully got confuzzled and voted for Pat? Years down the road it will still be argued who should have won because we will never really know how many of those votes should have gone to, Gore or Pat.

Another thing, electoral college. Polls--which we hate, but CAN have some truth to them--say that in the 1960's 58% of the people wanted to do away with it, 1970's 61%, 1981--75%. Now. . .if 75% of the american citizens wanted to do away with the electoral college in 1981--why is it still around? It PROVES that washington doesn't give a damn what the people want.

[ZTAngel]

"It PROVES that washington doesn't give a damn what the people want."
I totally agree with that comment, mgdzkm433. In some ways, I don't even know why we bother to vote for who we think is going to listen to us. They never do listen. There are very few politicians out there who listen to what the people have to say and make their decisions based on that. Most politicians make their decisions based on what's good for themselves.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

McCoyred,

It has happened in the past that a president won the electoral vote but did not have a maojority vote. That's why this electoral college crap stinks! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif

[James]

There used to be a cool class here called: How to lie with statistics. . .

I'm not a Bush supporter but it may be unfair to lambast him for some of the problems he no doubt inherited in his state.

It would be better to analyze the steps he took to change the problems and whether those steps had impact.

I also was a Nader supporter . . .

[c&c1913]

Isn't it ironic that in all of the 50 states of this union, the one state that will/can determine the president is governed by the candidate's brother? Hmmm.... what a coincidence. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[AXO Alum]

The winner has not even been determined yet, and so many of you are saying its already a conspiracy! What if Gore wins - will you still be thinking that? I have stated from the beginning that Bush is my choice based on my perception of the ISSUES. That is what matters - not stats, not myths, and not personality conflicts. Like I said before - it is out of our hands now. Its ironic to me that George was declared the winner, Gore conceeded, and then all of a sudden its a recount...hmmm... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Franny Granny]

It's also ironic that Florida went to Gore...then undecided...then to Dubya.
And ol' Jeb (Dubya's brother http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif ) is the governor of Florida. Something is rotten in FLORIDA...
But seriuosly though...I can't wait for this to be over so that I can start my pissing and moaning at whom ever get's it ...I can do that BECAUSE I VOTED!!!!

[This message has been edited by Franny Granny (edited November 08, 2000).]

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Here is a link with interesting facts about the electoral college:
www.policy.com/news/dbrief/dbriefarc770.asp. (http://www.policy.com/news/dbrief/dbriefarc770.asp.)
If this link doesn't work you can go to www.policy.com (http://www.policy.com) and do a search on electoral college.

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 08, 2000).]

[NewInFL]

Totally Apart from the issues.....is anybody scared at all about what an uneducated man George W. gives the appearance of being. While he did his undergrad at Yale, and masters from Harvard, Daddy bought his way into both institutions where he graduated with sub-par grades. The man can't even put together a grammatically comprehensible statement without the aid of his speechwriters. Is this the man we want representing our nation to the world. Under Democrats, the nation has prospered for the last 8 years. Hopefully, the missing ballot boxes will appear, the mismarked ballots will be corrected, and Gore will be elected.

[This message has been edited by NewInFL (edited November 08, 2000).]

[lluvmook98]

I just feel sorry for minorities and any of us other "special preferences" people if G.W.B. gets in.
Us negras better run for we are back down south and not by choice if you get my drift. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

[33girl]

Who is a member of the fraternity that has done the most to fight the attacks from radically liberal school administrators on the Greek system? Who believes that the people should control the government, not the other way around? I'll give you a hint - it ain't Gore.

On a lighter note, what was Dan Rather smoking last night, and is it legal in the U.S. or Canada? He out-Dennis Millered Dennis Miller.

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by 33girl:
On a lighter note, what was Dan Rather smoking last night, and is it legal in the U.S. or Canada? He out-Dennis Millered Dennis Miller.

I was rolling when he was talking to the analysts, and they kept saying "if this" and "if that" - and then out of no where he kinda yelled "yeah - yeah - yeah, and IF frogs had sidepockets they'd carry handguns, but they don't so let's forget the if's" - I love it! Too funny!

[ZTAngel]

As a Florida resident, this is all extremely fascinating. My state is the focus on what will happen in our country for the next 4 years. I am so glad that they are doing a recount. I do not agree with EVERYTHING that Gore stands for but I think he is the lesser of two evils. After reading those Texas statistics, it's very scary to think that Bush might be our next president.

[mccoyred]

I agree!! I was just discussing this issue with a coworker this morning. It is an unfair and unjust system. The president should not get ALL the electoral votes for a state where only 50.1% of the people voted for him. It is possible (and I beleive it has already happened) where the candidate who receives the majority of the popular vote LOSES because of the electoral vote process.


Originally posted by AXO Alum:

As far as the election goes - I think it says a lot that Al had already conceded to George, and then recanted. I will say that regardless of the winner, I am anxiously awaiting the Constitutional Amendment that will abolish the Electoral College. I have never met anyone who approved of our current process, and would be happy to hear from anyone that does. I think it should be the popular vote. The voice of the people.



------------------
mccoyred

Dynamic
Salient
Temperate

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by AXO Alum:

As far as the election goes - I think it says a lot that Al had already conceded to George, and then recanted.

That doesn't say anything at all. The Bush and Gore camps got their information from the same place the rest of us did, the media. Some major news papers went so far as to release early editions announcing Bush the winner. When Gore conceeded, he was under the impression that Bush won, just like Dewgirl was under the impression that Bush won when she created this thread. I think we need to get rid of media coverage of the "results." They're misleading. How much sense does it make to say someone is the "winner" when less than 90% of the votes are tallied. It's stupid and leads to confusion, like we have now. The RESPONSIBILE thing for the media to do, since we all knew it was going to be a close race, would be to get ALL the facts before they declare or project a winner, including getting an absentee ballot count. As it stands now, it may be days before we know who really won this election. Several other states are following Florida's lead and recounting the ballots. CNN reported a worker in a day care center that was used as a polling place in Florida found a box of ballots that was left behind. This is far from over.

[Little32]

The voice of the people has spoken and Al Gore has won the popular vote nationally, by a good 200,000 votes. Even if Dubya wins Florida, it will not be enough to give him the popular vote nationally.
I think that everything going on in Florida (and Missouri) is suspicious and a travesty on the part of the system to say the least.
It is reminiscent of the types of gerrymandering that took place before the passage of the voter's rights act. I quite frankly am disgusted and don't doubt for a moment that Jeb had a hand in this. Something needs to be done, they can't just get away with this kind of corruption.
AXO Alum- We have all heard the statistics speech before. As a Christian doesn't your bible tell you that vengeance belongs to God?

[LXAAlum]

I won't get into my personal beliefs and details about who I think should (and will) win, but, let me say this about the election results:

WOW

Regardless of who wins this election, and I believe it could still go either way (the miracle of statistics and the Electoral College)...think of the history we are living to see...the closest race since 1960, possibly one of the closest races EVER (though I believe I heard Thomas Jefferson won by one vote way back when...). This is definitely something you can tell your children and grandchildren about. It reminds me of the Dewey/Truman race and the Cleveland paper goofing.

I still hope things turn out the way I voted, but, if not, wow, what a ride. Even with the media's trying to call the race early by goofing on Florida, twice thus far (watch this to become a true issue in the NEXT election - calling states two minutes after polls start to close in the state), it was a night to remember. New Mexico, snow and all, might still turn a surprise, as may Oregon.

My vote? Again, I won't go into specifics (though many of you know) - I look at voting this way: the ballots we cast our votes on are not pure white paper. They are stained with the blood of those who gave their lives in defense of our country and what our country stands for, to allow us to have the freedom to vote. However any of you voted, doesn't really matter as much as the fact that YOU DID VOTE, and validated their sacrifice in defense of the Constitution and the people.

Now, since I didn't get ANY sleep last night as a result of work and trying to watch election results....good night.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited November 09, 2000).]

[juniorgrrl]

My favorite quote from Dan Rather:

"And Bush has...uhm, I can't see how many votes has...so we'll just move on"

Apparently, he couldn't read the graphic, so he just skipped over it.

I swear, the man sounded drunk last night http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[c&c1913]

Originally posted by AXO Alum:
The winner has not even been determined yet, and so many of you are saying its already a conspiracy! What if Gore wins - will you still be thinking that?

No, I won't say it's a conspiracy if Gore wins because Al Gore's brother isn't the governor of the state holding things up. Come on now. 50 states. Florida's polls were some of the first to close. Jeb Bush is governor. They're still counting ballots. The Bushes would be crazy not to think people would be suspicious. We know how families favors for each other. They probably didn't think it would come down to Florida being the deciding vote and all eyes would be on them.

[Little32]

Yes, it will still be a conspiracy if Gore wins. It will just be a failed conspiracy.

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by LadyAKA:
One last thing, i gotta get it all out because I don't frequent this board a lot - So a convicted murderer has no rights, and what if he is not guilty, cause you know our system is not all that, many of MY people have undoubtedly been in this situation, so what - you kill them off first and apologize later. I am now not attacking bush, but your comment on the death penalty!!!
And as for bush, he still gets joy out of murdering another human and that scares me!!

[This message has been edited by LadyAKA (edited November 09, 2000).]

You have your own people? I thought that was illegal since the civil war! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Seriously though, They gave FL to Gore after less than half of the state reported in! How could you base that big of a state off of that? Isn't one of Gore's advisors high up in FL government? That's what I heard anyway. I don't see what was so confusing about the ballot in Palm Beach. There is NO reason for a revote. If someone was confused by the ballot, they should have asked for assistance. I don't argue with the recount though, if ANY state is that close, it should definitely be recounted. The media shouldn't say so and so is president within a couple hours after a few exit polls. Gore shouldn't have conceded though, if it was that close.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[Little32]

When Gore conceded he thought that there was a 12,000 vote difference and the media had called the state for Bush. So basically he was in the same situation dubya had been in a few hours earlier. I don't fault him, because he was misinformed.

[Corbin Dallas]

That's what you get for listening to the media http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[mgdzkm433]

I was watching a show yesterday that let people call in and voice their opinion. One woman said that when she was in the booth and she accidently punched Pat B., she asked for a new ballot. They gave it to her of course. However, when she and her busband were driving home, she was telling him how confusing the ballot was and how she marked Pat instead of Gore and why she made the mistake, her husband realized he did the same thing, but didn't realize the mistake until that moment. By then it was too late. So I don't think a whole lot of people realized they made a mistake or were confused, they just didn't realize until the info about the confusing ballot came out. Also, I heard that it WAS reported that people were getting confused about the ballot and the people helping with the election did nothing about it. They just let people go in and vote and didn't explain anything. I think that when it was reported, the people helping should have posted signs or something in the booths explaining that part of the ballot. I also heard that part of the voting process in FL was done by computer and that the elderly people coming in either left because they didn't know how to work the computer or ended up voting wrong because they didn't know how to use the computer. They couldn't ask for help because then their vote would become void--since nobody can help you vote.

[AXO Alum]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LadyAKA:
WHAT????????? - CHILD PLEASE!!!!

If I came on here and called you a "child" then you would be furious. I am not a child - I am an adult with an informed opinion and that is something that everyone, not just certain (read "my") people have the right to! State your opinion, but do not act like you are the only one entitled to do so.

At least I have stated my opinion in reference to the issues, and have not started the name calling. We all have our beliefs, religious and otherwise - so deal with it when people disagree with you rather than reacting with hatred and name calling.

"you kill them off first and apologize later. I am now not attacking bush, but your comment on the death penalty!!!"

I have never killed anyone, thank you. This is my opinion on the death penalty.

Please feel free to email me personally if you would like to further discuss our philosphical differences. I will be respectful of your right to your opinion if you are respectful of my right to my opinion.

[This message has been edited by AXO Alum (edited November 09, 2000).]

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
I also heard that part of the voting process in FL was done by computer and that the elderly people coming in either left because they didn't know how to work the computer or ended up voting wrong because they didn't know how to use the computer. They couldn't ask for help because then their vote would become void--since nobody can help you vote.

This is not true of where I live - we also used the computer and when I marked "Bush/Cheney" it lit up. But then, when I tried to mark a different section of the ballot, my vote changed from Bush to Gore. I immediately grabbed one of the procters and told her the problem and she herself changed my vote back and watched until I finished to make sure it didn't mess up again. She also said that had been a problem all day. So it isn't just people voting for Gore who are getting screwed up, I just happened to re-check my ballot before voting (which everyone should do regardless since its too late once the button is pushed). I think that this stuff is way too technological - there were also elderly people staring at the computers because they didn't know what to do with it. Just like that punch ticket thing...just give me a pen and the ballot and I'll mark it myself. I will say that it is true that the Elections Board director of that county in FL with the punch ticket thing is a democrat and he has stated repeatedly that the sample ballot was issued, and that there were no problems with it before. He also said that even though he is a Democrat, he does not see how it was confusing because the arrows point to the number beside the name.

Also - Bush did not ask for a recount. It is the law that less than 1/2 of 1% automatically gets a recount. People are getting their stories confused because this has been piped out through the media in all sorts of ways.

By the way - I can respect the fact that we can all have different opinions, but lets stick to the issues and not get personal with each other. Thank you!

[mgdzkm433]

AXO Alum,

Thanks for the correction. Like I said, I had heard that, but hey, I'm in West Virginia. That news had to travel and I know that we've all played that 'telephone' game before where you start a sentance and whisper it to your neighbor and when it ends up at the last person it's totally different than what was originally said. I always thought that if someone watches you vote, that your vote became void and that's why they had the dividers and curtains, but hey I'm obviously wrong. From what you said, it sounds like the voting process with the computers was just totally messed up. I did see the ballot on TV where people voted for Pat B. instead of Gore. It was kinda confusing. You really had to look at it. I thought it was because usually people read down one page first and then the next like a book. When they saw Gore's name and saw he was second, they automatically punched the second hole. Then skipped over the second page because they skimmed it and saw the two other candidates that they weren't going to vote for. So I can see how it could have been confusing or misread.

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
...I did see the ballot on TV where people voted for Pat B. instead of Gore. It was kinda confusing. You really had to look at it...

Wouldn't you really want to look at it, before you just punched some number? I think if nothing else, voting would be something to take serious, and make sure of what you were doing, besides this ballot had been used before, and there were never any lawsuits over it, at least as far as I know.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[c&c1913]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AXO Alum:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LadyAKA:
[b]WHAT????????? - CHILD PLEASE!!!!

If I came on here and called you a "child" then you would be furious. I am not a child - I am an adult with an informed opinion and that is something that everyone, not just certain (read "my") people have the right to! State your opinion, but do not act like you are the only one entitled to do so.

AXO Alum-
Based on my experience, this is just a phrase, slang, expression or whatever term would describe this. I don't think the intention was to call you an actual child.

LadyAKA-
If I am wrong, please let me know and I apologize if I misinterpreted your use of this phrase.

[MissSunshine]

What I'm hearing from most people who voted for Bush is that they voted for him because he is about putting responsibility in the hands of the people, people responsible for their own money, their own outcome. Which is all fine and dandy but what about those people who by no fault of their own, can't support themselves? What about people who for some reason, life gave them a bad deal? Not because they are lazy, maybe depression or loss of an arm or something...I mean you never know. What some people fail to realize is that those of us who are able to go to work everyday, achieve our goals and make a living for ourself, we are FORTUNATE. We are BLESSED. Any time, any day, God can choose to take you out (for lack of a better word) and you can be just like that person on the corner, who doesn't have food on the table or a home to go to.

Now, for the people out there who are just plain LAZY and don't want to go out and do for themselves, have been on welfare for the past 20 years, yes, something needs to be done about that. All of my hard earned money doesn't need to go to some couch potato. But for the people who do need it, we can't take it away from them.

I just don't see Bush having any compassion for anyone except rich people or himself. That is the actual factual. Another thing I don't like about Bush are his views on education...how are you going to use PUBLIC money to fund PRIVATE education? Not fair at all. And for those schools that are doing poorly, why not investigate the reasons why it's doing so poorly and invest money to improve those situations? Not take money away. That's just ass backwards to me.

Bush is obviously anti-women, anti-affirmative action, anti-civil rights, anti-abortion and the list could go on and on. He's basically anti-anything unless you're rich and you're a male. And for those of you who disagree, let's just see the state of the world in 2003.

[NewInFL]

a little news from florida.....offically as of 6pm tonight with 53 out of 67 counties reporting their is a 1200 vote difference between Bush and Gore, however the networks are saying that 11 other counties have been contacted and have finished their recounts bring the difference between Bush and Gore to 362 votes with 64 out of 67 counties. As far as I have heard the 3 counties not reporting are 2 in southern florida (one containing the confusing ballots, where a hand count will begin saturday morning) and pinellas county (in the Tampa Bay area) where several vote from the highly democratic southern district of the county were not originally counted and several votes from the morthern republican portion of the county were counted twice.
Just thought you all might like to know what we floridians were hearing first thing.

.....another update.....as of 7:15 with 65 out of 67 counties reporting Bushs' lead is only 225 votes. Manatee and Seminole counties have yet to report

[This message has been edited by NewInFL (edited November 09, 2000).]

[prettypoodle6]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong - cause I'm all the way in Cali and news from Florida can get twisted by the time it reaches us http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif, but as far as the ballots being confusing, for the most part the only people that have been really complaining have been the elderly, right? I saw the ballot-and to me (I'm 24) its pretty self explanatory, but I can see how an EIGHTY YEAR OLD WOMAN might have been lost!! Hell, some elderly dont know how to lock a window!

Conspiracies..... Lies...... Cover-ups..... GOD DOES NOT LIKE UGLY! And he will make things right. With the power of prayer, anything and everything is possible.

GORE 107%!!!

Prettypoodle6
**Praying that the next president will NOT be the one that has organizations like the KKK as supporters.......

[LadyAKA]

Laughing out load @ Little32's comment on 'It will just be a failed conspiracy' and Corbin Dallas about 'me having my own people', I am glad people still have a sense of humor!!

To AXO Alum, I am sorry you took my message out of context .... as c&c1913 stated it was meant as a type of slang, not to demeanor you. See that is what I am afraid of I am sure that Bush, as you did, will not be able to handle the complexity of ALL people!! As for your opinion, I agree you have a right to it, it may be ass backwards, but you do have a right and I am not the one to take it away from you, Bush is in charge of that(just joking, jeeeez). Right now I am a bit upset but I don't think i have resulted to hatred (such a harsh word) and name calling. All I said was Bush is a ****, you filled in your own word. This is really not a fight or argument between you and I, it is about our views, sorry if you felt I rained on your parade, didn't mean to, really!! I just don't see how you think, you or bush was so well versed on the issues, but maybe it is my oversight.

And about the death penalty and what I wrote before (i.e. you kill them and then apologize)....come I did not directly mean you, but it that not how the system works most of the time, we are not always sure of who we punish, Murder is wrong either way, by abortion or capital punishment ...it is all wrong. I can't argue with you any more - a stress headache is setting in.

[This message has been edited by LadyAKA (edited November 09, 2000).]

[kmullini]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MissSunshine:
[B]"What I'm hearing from most people who voted for Bush is that they voted for him because he is about putting responsibility in the hands of the people."

Exactly, he values us as a people by giving us the power unlike Gore who is for big government. We dont want to see the "White House" turn into a Motel 6 Circus Charade where we have a commander in chief that CANNOT lead by example. Look at what kind of example the Clinton's Administration set for the men and women of the military that get court martialed for fraternizing(A man of a higher rank having an improper relationship with a female of a lower rank). What a double standard. I'm not talking just sex either. Even in the military that situation/regulation is not all about sex. I firmly believe he obstructed justice even though they never proved it. At any rate I feel that Bush has qute a lot to contribute to this country in terms of responsibility/integrity/vision to the office of the President but I guess I could see why others would rather see Gore in office. That Florida controversy does puzzle me why voters there felt they were tricked or mislead. They had to have been elderly voters because when I voted it was plane as day. I agree that if they felt that adamant about it they should of rechecked it a couple times and it just looks like they are making a lot of noise to start a controversy.

[This message has been edited by kmullini (edited November 09, 2000).]

[33girl]

Originally posted by prettypoodle6:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong - cause I'm all the way in Cali and news from Florida can get twisted by the time it reaches us http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif, but as far as the ballots being confusing, for the most part the only people that have been really complaining have been the elderly, right? I saw the ballot-and to me (I'm 24) its pretty self explanatory, but I can see how an EIGHTY YEAR OLD WOMAN might have been lost!! Hell, some elderly dont know how to lock a window!



My mother was a party committeewoman for years, so I practically grew up at the polls. There are at least 3 "watchers" from each party there, plus the officials of the election board. There is also a mock-up of the ballot outside the voting booths. If you don't understand it, you can ASK! If you screw up, you can notify the board and have your ballot destroyed or your vote invalidated. And if you are elderly and/or have bad vision, you can get special permission for someone to go in the voting booth with you.

I don't care if you're 18 or 118 - if the help is there and you don't ask questions when you have them, don't complain if things don't come out the way you wanted. Ignorance is absolutely, positively NOT an excuse, and if you think it is, you shouldn't be voting.

[MissSunshine]

33 girl,

I respect your comments but at the same time, if you feel you are doing the right thing, then who can fault you for that? When they showed a copy of the ballot on television, it is clear that it is very confusing to have the punch marks in the middle. According to reports, Florida law requires that the choices be on the right, not the middle. If the shoe was on the other foot and this was a Bush problem, I would say the same thing. I think that people THOUGHT they were okay in voting for Gore but then, realized the discrepancy with the ballot. Personally, I think the entire nation should use the same kind of voting machines. I have voted in two different states in 96 and just 2 days ago and both times, they were electronic voting machines where you pull the lever or press a button and it's over. This archaic system of punching holes and using cardboard is SOOOOOOO outdated. And this electoral college thing has to go as well. The people elected Al Gore, fair and square. If the people had elected George Bush (and I'm talking about the popular vote), I would say the same thing.

This whole election, whatever the outcome, has really tarnished my already bad image of America, land of democracy, home of the free...

yeah, riiiiiiiiiiggght. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[mgdzkm433]

Hasn't a BUNCH of people predicted that the end of the world was to come in the year 2000. . . well. . .looks like they were right with THIS race!


Also, who was it that said that presidents elected in a year ending with a 0 will die in office? All but 1 or 2 have. So really we should have been looking at the VP candidates rather than the presidential candidates themselves.

[LadyAKA]

Originally posted by AXO Alum:
The winner has not even been determined yet, and so many of you are saying its already a conspiracy! What if Gore wins - will you still be thinking that? I have stated from the beginning that Bush is my choice based on my perception of the ISSUES. That is what matters - not stats, not myths, and not personality conflicts. Like I said before - it is out of our hands now. Its ironic to me that George was declared the winner, Gore conceeded, and then all of a sudden its a recount...hmmm... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

WHAT????????? - CHILD PLEASE!!!!
Why is it so funny, Bush asked for the recount, he knew his brother hooked things up for him in good ole Flo-rida and so he cried recount, it was recounted, taken away from Gore and later given to Bush ...that is what is funny, and then people jump for joy that he is president ...until wait - there is another recount, oh now no one has the state. That is funny, and like we are stating, bush is winning there, and this is the determining state and it is his brothers state - what part of the planet are you from?? So, no if Gore wins, I would not think it is a conspiracy -why??

Glad you voted for bush, hope you can live with him and make out better after 4 years, then you did these past 8!! And on the issues he has not done that well, he can't speak intelligently on any topic and he can't even name some of the surrounding countries, allies or not. Who cares about the statics in Texas, Dubya is a **** you fill the blanks in!!

And there is a huge difference in letting a women choose what she wants to do and having the government mandate MURDER!! Mrs. Christian women I thought you would know that 2 wrongs don't make a right, new testament is not EYE for and EYE!! And it is not for abortion either, but taking the right away is not going to make ABORTION stop- let the woman deal with god, it has nothing to do with bush or the government!!

One last thing, i gotta get it all out because I don't frequent this board a lot - So a convicted murderer has no rights, and what if he is not guilty, cause you know our system is not all that, many of MY people have undoubtedly been in this situation, so what - you kill them off first and apologize later. I am now not attacking bush, but your comment on the death penalty!!!
And as for bush, he still gets joy out of murdering another human and that scares me!!

[This message has been edited by LadyAKA (edited November 09, 2000).]

[AXO Alum]

Hey Everyone,
I just heard a reporter from Palm County, Florida discussing some interesting figures. First of all, Buchanan got 3400 votes (which is why people are saying they accidentally voted for him instead of Gore), but - in 1996, Buchanan received 8000 votes in the same county...which makes one wonder if the vote was really all that inaccurate. Second, these 19,000 votes that are invalid because they are double punched...in 1996, 15,000 were double punched as well - so again, it puts these seemingly outrageous numbers in perspective. Another note, again, the Elections Board rep that designed the punch ballot is a democrat, and she and her crew have stated that the ballot was specially designed to have large print for the seniors to see easier. The ballot was printed in the newspapers, mailed to every registered voter, and was on display according to law at the voting locations. Furthermore, there is a section at the very end where the voter must punch the hole to certify that this is how their ballot should be cast, and that if there are any questions/concerns to ask for assistance. If you had made any mistakes, they were there to hand out additional ballots (which several people did take advantage of). I spoke earlier about the problem I had with the computer voting, and I just asked for assistance to correct the problem.

It is not fair to have people re-vote. Just recount the ballots and determine who carried the state. I do not believe in the Electoral College, but, I also do not believe in changing the rules in the middle of the game. Weeks and months ago when the prediction was the opposite (Gore winning EC and Bush winning popular vote) there was not a peep from the Gore camp about abolishing the EC. However, if you will look into the Bush campaign from the very start, he was the only one that stated he was against the EC and wanted to amend the constitution if he got into office. So again, Bush has been consistent, whereas Gore has only felt the need to jump in when it will best serve him. I believe that Gore is afraid because of those 10,000 outstanding absentee ballots, because the majority of them are military personnel, and do tend to vote Republican (especially when the funding has been so drastically cut, and the morale at an all time low for the past 8 years)....but this is a big "if" and we remember what Dan says about "ifs" http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I just wanted to throw some current #'s out to show that its not like Buchanan has never had a vote in this county.

[mgdzkm433]

I was watching the Today show this morning and they said that he got 3400 votes from Palm County, FL this year and only around 1300 in 1996. They said that he got 3 times the number of votes this year than in 1996 in FL.

Pat was also on the Today show and even he said that he felt that people accidently voted for him instead of Gore because of the huge increase in the number of votes this year.

[MissSunshine]

MaMaBuddha,

You're exactly right! Sometimes I feel that some of our fellow Americans are SOOOOO stupid! I mean, if the Clinton/Gore administration has been able to make life better for everyone in this country as far as education and the economy, why would you want to change it? Isn't there a saying that says "if it's not broke, don't fix it." The problem with society and particularly our generation, every one is about "me, me, me." As long as they are okay, screw everyone else and that is not the way to be.

Sometimes, I think that people just voted for Bush just because they wanted a change of face in the White House, they didn't really analyze the issues and George W. track record in his state.

It's sad, really sad.

I think I'm opting for a move to Canada, maybe Toronto or Windsor. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[Little32]

What about Daddy Bush and his "Read my lips. No new taxes."

I would just like to mention that I agree with what has been said thus far. Bush want's to put the decision in the hands of the people. This is a big thing with him. How can you make a decision if you have no options? You can't. Bush does not give a flying _______ (you fill in the blank) about those people who don't have any options as things stand.

I would like to remind everyone that this country was settled by people searching for religious freedom. Not just religious freedom for those who are Christians, but for everyone (as much as it might pain some of y'all to contemplate that fact). Religion often also shapes morality. Somethings that are not acceptable to members of certain religions--say eating pork for example-- are perfectly acceptable to others.

The larger issue I refer to hear is abortion. If it does not compromise the individual moral and religious beliefs than what right does the government have to assert dominion over what should be an individual's choice. Last I checked government and church were supposed to be separate. Your can not force your morality code on anyon else.

If Bush is so for choices, why won't he let the woman make this choice for herself. Does he not trust women to choose what is right for their own bodies. Some trust. Also legal abortions are better than the seedy back alley alternatives that were once, and will again become the reality if folks like Bush have their way.


Well I have said my piece and I am sure in the process I have offended many, many people. Let's just try to continue to keep this civil 'kay.


[This message has been edited by Little32 (edited November 10, 2000).]

[AXO Alum]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Little32:
What about Daddy Bush and his "Read my lips. No new taxes."

Okay - What about Clinton "I did not have sexual relations with her"? What does what George Bush said have to do with George W. Bush in this case?

Also legal abortions are better than the seedy back alley alternatives that were once, and will again become the reality if folks like Bush have their way.

Actually no it won't become reality again - Bush even stated this during the debate. There is no way that a president will ever be able to reverse Roe v. Wade. This will never happen.

Again I want to state that Al Gore is all for the death penalty. People still seem to think that he isn't - this was a major discussion during the debate...the fact that they agreed on this issue was phenomenal!

We've been through all of this before. What's done is done. None of us on here are going to change anyone's opinion one way or the other. Its not like other discussions where we learn from each other. There's nothing to learn here except that Gore people think Gore should be president, and Bush people think Bush should be president. Either way, thank God/Goddess/fill in religious icon here ____ we're free to think and say pretty much what we want. (Just a little Veteran's Day note in memory of my grandfather and all the vets who gave their heart and soul for this country)!

[MaMaBuddha]

if BUSH wins,

Europe here i come...

how can people forget about the<b> war (desert storm)</b> where some of my friends where killed in. oh yeah, the <b>recession</b>...damn, did we forget about that???

looks like the rich will get richer and the poor will be executed under BUSH!!!

[Little32]

Roe vs. Wade: A president can't reverse it but a largely conservative Supreme court can. Maybe not by reversing that particula case, per se, but by making a series of rulings that pretty much nullify the result of that particular case. It has happened before. If you want I will tell you when.

[kmullini]

I'm with you on that. My father celebrated his Marine Corp. birthday yesterday and my grandfather is a WW2 Navy veteran and lead a strike on Okinawa, Japan during that time.


"Either way, thank God/Goddess/fill in religious icon here ____ we're free to think and say pretty much what we want. (Just a little Veteran's Day note in memory of my grandfather and all the vets who gave their heart and soul for this country)!"

[/B][/QUOTE]

[bucutie02]

I just wanted to say that i completely agree with everything that AXO Alum has said through-out this entire thread. I also voted for Bush, who i am pretty positve about that will win this election whenever it does end. I think it is very poor upon the rest of you that have been name calling and saying things like "if Bush wins, im moving to europe". Its funny how AXO Alum has numbers and facts to prove what Al Gore has made mistakes, but then those who support Gore just name call Bush. Lets grow up a little and if you disagree with Bush then give us actual proofs!!

[LXAAlum]

Little,
If you really want to point out GW's shortcomings by invoking the words of his father, then it is fair game to invoke Gore's fathers record as well.

Remember, it was Gore Sr., as well as a majority of southern Democratic congressman, that opposed the civil rights acts of the 60's.

So, by taking the "fathers" viewpoints into account, I don't think either candidate will be able to claim the higher moral ground.

[Franny Granny]

Can someone explain to me a few things...my old mind is growing feeble. All of this confusion has left me a little peakish...

Will someone PLEASE point out to me where this allegied name calling went on!!!! I want to know! The perpetrators should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!

Will someone PLEASE tell me when it became a sin or childish to announce that you are going to move out of the country and start a life abroad.

Will someone PLEASE tell me when it's wrong to state your opinion about whatever current event going on without a degree in this, that, or the other thing to back it up.

Will someone PLEASE let EVERYBODY know that "Opinions are like NOSES, everybody has one".

And I want to know WHY no pro Bushers have come in and given their opinion about the "something rotten in Florida", that goes by the name of JEB BUSH. Is that whole scenario the least bit fishy to you? IMHO it's fishier than 5 dirty hookers in a fish market on a fish fry friday....eating fish.

[Little32]

Actually, Mama Buddha (sure hope I spelled that right) and I were just recalling what happened the last time a Bush was in office. It was not a pretty sight.
Whenever someone puts up numbers that allude to Bush's many shortcomings, someone--I ain't naming no names--wants to mention how statistics can be manipulated so easily. Check the beginning of the thread for that.
Franny Granny: You are cracking me up. That fish thing was hilarious.

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by Little32:
Whenever someone puts up numbers that allude to Bush's many shortcomings, someone--I ain't naming no names--wants to mention how statistics can be manipulated so easily.

You can name names - do you not agree that stats can be manipulated? I don't understand how people can automatically assume that Jeb has something to do with Florida, but not realize that is is a fact that stats can be manipulated. I think Gore and many of his supporters are grabbing at straws - during this whole prediction thing when the media had said Bush would carry the popular vote, and Gore the EC, Gore never once mentioned abolishing the EC. It has always been a part of Bush's campaign. But whoa...wait a minute, now Gore is all about getting the EC abolished quick fast and in a hurry - which just goes to show that you don't go changing the rules in the middle of the game just because things aren't going your way. There are conspiracies for everything - including JFK Jr. being murdered so "they" only have Caroline left...once "they" kill her off then all the "secret" JFK documents can be released http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

If you want to look at a conpiracy record, how about all the conspiracies during the past 8 years? Or do you really and truly believe that Gore had no idea that money was dirty when he got it? At least if Bush does lose this election I will be able to continue fighting for what I believe in - I have more pride than to sit around trying to blame the sun, moon, and stars for what could've been.

I did see on our news last night that they interviewed several Palm Beach seniors, and they were totally PO'd about the stereotypes that they're all old and senile and couldn't read the ballot (and many of them did vote for Gore). They also talked about how if anything screwed this election up, it was the media reporting exit polls so early that discouraged a lot of voters, especially on the west coast. I would agree there.

Win or lose we are living history here - I definitely don't think we'll ever have to worry about an electoral college after this! Its funny because the first couple of days everyone was glued to the tv and radio...now its become the joke of the day: "Anybody know if we have a president yet?"

Its not a sin to move to Europe or anywhere else. If you don't want to be here anymore than go - you have that right. Its just like us Southerners who get tired of hearing from Yankees how great it is up north, how much better this is, how much faster that is - if its so much better, and it makes you happy, then head on out - we "ain't" stopping ya!

[moe.ron]

My christmass wish has come true early. I had hope that both parties will embarass itself. And it came true!!!!!

by the way, democracy is for sale.
Agents - Democrat Party
Republican Party

Vote Green, Vote Third Party.
Vote for Green is Vote for Democracy.

[juniorgrrl]

ACTUALLY...don't applaud Clinton/Gore for the economy's success...I think that we should all be thanking Alan Greenspan for that!

[mccoyred]

My feeling EXACTLY. Each and every individual who exercises their RIGHT to vote has a RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that their vote is ACCURATE, COMPLETE and CORRECT. If a voter doesn't understand the ballot or process, they should ask (more than once if necessary). I beleive that ALL incomplete and unreadable ballots should be invalidated and thrown out, period.

Originally posted by 33girl:
My mother was a party committeewoman for years, so I practically grew up at the polls. There are at least 3 "watchers" from each party there, plus the officials of the election board. There is also a mock-up of the ballot outside the voting booths. If you don't understand it, you can ASK! If you screw up, you can notify the board and have your ballot destroyed or your vote invalidated. And if you are elderly and/or have bad vision, you can get special permission for someone to go in the voting booth with you.

I don't care if you're 18 or 118 - if the help is there and you don't ask questions when you have them, don't complain if things don't come out the way you wanted. Ignorance is absolutely, positively NOT an excuse, and if you think it is, you shouldn't be voting.





------------------
mccoyred

Dynamic
Salient
Temperate

[mgdzkm433]

Arya, I'm with ya!

It seems that the 2 basic arguments on this board are abortion and death penalty. A majority seem to want a pro choice, anti death penalty president. Why would you vote for Bush or Gore? Ralph Nadar fits that bill! He also wants to raise minimum wage immediatly, he wants to clean up Indian Reservations, He wants to up the enforcment on environmental issues--including the clean air and clean water acts. How could any of that be bad?

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
Arya, I'm with ya!

It seems that the 2 basic arguments on this board are abortion and death penalty. A majority seem to want a pro choice, anti death penalty president. Why would you vote for Bush or Gore? Ralph Nadar fits that bill! He also wants to raise minimum wage immediatly, he wants to clean up Indian Reservations, He wants to up the enforcment on environmental issues--including the clean air and clean water acts. How could any of that be bad?

In case some of you haven't been around, the election is over. There's no point in campaining for Nader anymore. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[Monique]

thank GOD for the recount..if Bush wins then we(AFRICAN-AMERICANS) are in big trouble

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by Monique:
thank GOD for the recount..if Bush wins then we(AFRICAN-AMERICANS) are in big trouble

Why, does bush have a plan to reinstate slavery or re-segregate whites and blacks? I guess I'm just trying to say I've heard that statement often, but I have never heard of any anti-minority plan. Please give a good example of why you (AFRICAN-AMERICANS) are in big trouble. Thanks.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[moe.ron]

The presidential race might be over. But the fight to get democracy back from special interest just started. As a former Democrat turn Green (I'm a progressive liberal and proud of it.) it disgust me to see my former party look more like the Republican and the Republican look more like the National Party of South Africa.
"Ralph Nader didn't loose the election for Al Gore, Al Gore lost the election for Al Gore."

------------------
“If you know anyone who got high on industrial hemp, tell the National Science Foundation and you’ll get a prize for the most unlikely scientific discovery ever. George Bush’s father was saved by a parachute made of industrial hemp."
-Ralph Nader

[mgdzkm433]

That's right, the election is over. My father, a devoted republican said to me over the weekend that if he knew then what he knows now, he would have even voted for Nader. I was just making the comment about Nader because he, just like all parties that AREN'T republican or democrat, got overlooked.


I'm not the only one on this board stating their opinions about candidates, I don't see why I'm the only one that needs to stop talking about theirs. Just because my candidate isn't going to win doesn't mean that I have to stop talking about what a good president he would have made. And, you never know, what I have to say about him might spark people to vote for him in 2004 if he's running--which I hope so. Campagning is never over.

[This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited November 14, 2000).]

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
Campagning is never over.


AMEN TO THAT! I don't think you should stop talking about him, he's looking better and better as this thing progresses! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I'm just glad a certain sense of civility has returned to this thread - so don't worry about that other comment. None of us have stopped talking about our candidates (although I'm way past tired with this whole mess)!

Lifesaver - I hear you on the Bingo thing!

If any of you listen to Bob&Tom (syndicated morning radio show) you may have heard the Dick Mango trio singing a little tribute to this whole thing - quite hilarious!

Also, if anyone has seen the email FLASH where Bush/Gore are rapping and dancing - too funny! If you haven't seen it, you can email me, and if I like you (kidding http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif), I'll send the attachment to you. It is so freaking funny!



------------------
"Alpha Chi Omega - If you only had 2 wishes, what would your second one be?"

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
That's right, the election is over. My father, a devoted republican said to me over the weekend that if he knew then what he knows now, he would have even voted for Nader. I was just making the comment about Nader because he, just like all parties that AREN'T republican or democrat, got overlooked.


I'm not the only one on this board stating their opinions about candidates, I don't see why I'm the only one that needs to stop talking about theirs. Just because my candidate isn't going to win doesn't mean that I have to stop talking about what a good president he would have made. And, you never know, what I have to say about him might spark people to vote for him in 2004 if he's running--which I hope so. Campagning is never over.

[This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited November 14, 2000).]

Actually, my comment was geared toward everyone. I don't see the point in discussing the merits of each candidate now, unless they're going to have a do-over http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Sorry, no personal foul meant. Of course Nader will run again, as will half of the other 3rd party candidates that have been running for years. I honestly don't see a change in the 2 party system for another couple of decades, or a MAJOR problem with the two current major parties, and I mean worse than what we're going through now.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[mgdzkm433]

Actually Corbin, I think this is a turning point. At least in my opinion. Nadar failed to get his 5%, but I think a lot of people are now realizing the problems with the 2 major parties. I have a lot of hope for the green party. A majority of his voters are between 18 and 34, yes that is a lot of years, however, it says to me that our young generation is actually THINKING. It indicates to me that we are becoming more concerned with our environment and we want the government to start taking a stand. I really think this particular incident with FL will really be the last straw for some voters. Even if they remain registered as democrat or republican, I think they will definatly start to at least LOOK at a 3rd party candidate in the future. I think this definatly means that neither of the 2 candidates will be elected, or re-elected in 4 years. I figure that the Republicans and Democrats will be fishing for new candidates in 4 years.

[LXAAlum]

Someone posted in here earlier that the Electoral College should be abolished.

Here's why this is not a good idea: if the Electoral College is abolished, and, the new system is to go by the popular vote only, then only the voters in New York, California, Florida, Pennsylvania, and Texas will ever see a presidential candidate in person again. The candidates will go where the votes are...big population centers. So, for the rest of us in BFE...aka Dakotas, Nebraska, Colorado (the small states)...we will largely be ignored.

I would like to see the Electoral College system changed...give every state an equal amount of Electoral Votes, and the Electors have to abide by the state results. This way, South Dakota becomes just as important as California...

OK, I know I'm living in a dream world, and likely, abolishing or changing the EC will not happen. Democracy is an imperfect thing.

I would like to add one final comment, quoting the man I really wanted to be President, Sen. John McCain of Arizona. At the GOP Convention, these were a small part of his remarks. Very ironic foreshadowing of the current crisis we find ourselve in today. I think both Bush and Gore need to take these words to heart, as should all Americans...

"To achieve the necessary changes to the practices and institutions of our democracy we need to be a little less content. We need to get riled up a bit, and stand up for the values that made America great. Rally to this new patriotic challenge or lose forever America's extraordinary ability to see around the corner of history. Americans, enter the public life of your country determined to tell the truth; to put problem solving ahead of partisanship; to defend the national interest against the forces that would divide us. Keep your promise to America, as she has kept her promise to you, and you will know a happiness far more sublime than pleasure.

It is easy to forget in politics where principle ends and selfishness begins. It takes leaders of courage and character to remember the difference. "

Sorry the post is so long, but I thought it important.

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
Actually Corbin, I think this is a turning point. At least in my opinion. Nadar failed to get his 5%, but I think a lot of people are now realizing the problems with the 2 major parties. I have a lot of hope for the green party. A majority of his voters are between 18 and 34, yes that is a lot of years, however, it says to me that our young generation is actually THINKING. Even if they remain registered as democrat or republican, I think they will definatly start to at least LOOK at a 3rd party candidate in the future. I think this definatly means that neither of the 2 candidates will be elected, or re-elected in 4 years. I figure that the Republicans and Democrats will be fishing for new candidates in 4 years.

While predicting voting trends isn't an exact art, there might be some truth to what mgd says' however not in the way she thinks.

The policy wonk had to jump in here. 4 years of people telling me my polsci degree was worthless, which it still is, but now I am so the expert on everything. Anyway, unfortunately, the current two party system is destined to remain in place because of the US' "winner take all" election system. If we had proportionasl representation like in europe, Nader (had he gotten 5% of the poular vote, 5% of the us house would be Green party members, or approx, 21 members). Until then, it is virtually impossible to have a Major 3rd party presence in this country. The states are responsible for their election laws, so all 50 (or at least a majority) would have to change the way we elect candidates.

What is more likely to occur is a major party reallignment. A large group of people get so fed up with the current system, they abandon the controlling party. In 1865 at the conclusion of the civil war, blacks who had been educated to be Democrats left the party and flocked to the party of Lincoln, where they remained until the turn of the century. It also happened in 1932, with the election of FDR. Many lifelong Republicans left the party, due to the economic conditions of the time and stayed loyal Democrats until their deaths.

Additionally, but far less drastic changes in party ideology could occur, i.e., the democrats will swing back to the left, away from the center.

While these scenarios do not occur with great frequency, they do happen. Usually due to some great social movement or economic condition.

Did I just re-write my final from Political Parties and Interest Groups-3013? I think so.


I just like all this 'cause when else would I have an opportunity to validate myself ands my degree like that on greekchat.com http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[LXAAlum]

Well put lifesaver,

My grandfather fits this scenario well...he was brought up Republican, but all that changed in the depression...he's been a FDR democrat ever since. In fact, he did consider voting for Nader, but, he did his homework first, and stuck with Gore (I tried and tried to get him to go for Bush, but he's still mad over the depression. 60 year old memories die hard).

Why not Nader? It wasn't the person...it was the party platform that scared him. He said that the Green Party's platform actually called for the total disarmament of the military - that is truly a scary direction to go in. With the current global situation, we need a strong, ready military. I feel Nader could have had a stronger showing had he addressed some of the truly radical platform ideas. Buchanan? He dug his own grave at the Reform party convention...with his poor showing, I think he ran that party out of existence. Too bad, I liked Perot's tact.

You're right...we might possibly see a major political shift away from one if not both parties. If the FL vote ends up Bush, and Gore keeps on with the lawsuits, it'll derail the democratic party's credibility for future leadership. However, should the vote turn Gore's way, and if the Bush campaign goes to the courts, the same thing could happen with the republicans. I think the democrats are at greater risk...Bush would concede and get it over with if the vote turns. Gore won't. He's even quoted as saying such in the current issue of Newsweek. In his own words (and I might be paraphrasing this just a bit, I left the magazine at work) "If Bush loses, life will go on for him. Me, I'll do anything to win." He said "we ain't seen nothing yet" and I truly believe it, though it's not in the context I wish it were.

Either way, just like I posted back somewhere on the first page of this string, it has been an exciting part of history to live through, and to explain to my two sons how the whole system works. My oldest son, after I explained the EC, popular vote, and the current FL situation (this was just after the FIRST recount, with Bush still ahead), he asked "If he (Gore) lost, why doesn't he quit? It's stupid." Gee, if only I had Gore's home number for my son to call...the innocence of youth!

[Dewgirl]

Lifesaver- I feel ya on the uselessness of a history/poly sci degrees - I'm discovering this now as I'm looking for a job post-graduation. However, I'm a popular person around campus right now...everybody I know is coming up to me and saying "So what's going on here....?"

[mgdzkm433]

LXA, I have to say, that mostly I agree. But the way I look at it, a total disarment of our military will never happen, not in my lifetime, not in my children's lifetime, maybe not even in my grandchildren's lifetime. It just won't happen. The rest of washington wouldn't let a president do that. They also wouldn't let a president make abortion illegal, they also wouldn't let a president take away civilian right to bear arms. It will just NEVER happen. So, when we talk about the Green Parties stand on disarming the military, it's only what they WISH could happen, just like Bush can only WISH abortion didn't exixt, just like Gore WISHES he could get rid of all our guns. So we have to look at the realistic things candidates want to do.

[Corbin Dallas]

I like what Jon Stewart said on the Daily Show last night, something along the lines of, Both candidates would roast their grandmother over Kennedy's eternal flame and feed the meat to Jesus to get elected. Although rather crude, I couldn't stop laughing!

Also, you poli-sci majors will be able to correct me on this probably, but haven't we had one 3rd party president, Teddy Roosevelt? Also, of course, Washington didn't have a party affiliation, I don't think.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[mgdzkm433]

Corbin,

John Daily is probably right!

Yes, I can't remember what president changed the election process. It used to be there were no parties. . . who was it that formed a party? Goodness, I can't remember, but I do know that the president it began with didn't really want to start a party, it was his supporters that did.

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by Corbin Dallas:

Also, you poli-sci majors will be able to correct me on this probably, but haven't we had one 3rd party president, Teddy Roosevelt? Also, of course, Washington didn't have a party affiliation, I don't think.



Somewhat correct. Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican when he assumed the presidency upon the death of president McKinley. He made a public statement that he would only seek two terms in office. he later regretted this statement. he was a Republican president both terms, but after he left office, decided to run in 1912 on the Republican ticket. the nomination went to someone else, so he formed his own party, the Bull-Moose Party (a progressive/grange type party; populist-based) and effectively split the republican vote and getting Woodrow Wilson elected as the Democrat.

Washington was not affilliated with a party, however there were factions at the time, to which the other founding fathers belonged to, namely the federalists, and those opposed to the federalists (states rights), which then became the Whigs and Democrat-Republicans (one party), the Democrats emerged, and the republicans emerged onto the national scene about 1856 or so.

I tried to be brief. It's not exact, but close. Feel free to correct me if I am in error on dates or anything.

[LXAAlum]

Mikki,
Dead on...a two-party system keeps the "extreme" stances of either party in check...hence the moderate presidents that we have had since Reagan.

My view on the military (being slightly biased as I am a veteran myself):

If you want peace, prepare for war. That's the only way to keep the foreign "despots" (Saddam/Khadafi/binLaden) from taking more extreme actions against the United States.

My other favorite military quote: Peace through firepower.

[mgdzkm433]

Well, I looked it up last nigth. It was Hamilton and Jefferson. With that election came the begining of the party system. Federalists and Republican. Before them (only 2 presidents) there was no party system.

[Trish]

If Bush doesnt win its only because the Demos steal it from him with the Courts permission. All the fuss by Gore is just more whiney-baby demo stuff. The liberals talk about fairness, but they dont know how to live it when its not in their favor.

[kmullini]

Exactly, how many recounts will it take to get the result they want. They are just being poor losers and should have stuck with the first count. How can they possibly have an accurate count now, or how can you validate the truthfulness of the florida votes in question. I think its a conspiracy. They have definitely learned from slick willy.

[theXgirl]

Originally posted by kmullini:
Exactly, how many recounts will it take to get the result they want. They are just being poor losers and should have stuck with the first count. How can they possibly have an accurate count now, or how can you validate the truthfulness of the florida votes in question. I think its a conspiracy. They have definitely learned from slick willy.

I wanted to stay out of this but...
My opinion is this. What Republicans have shown me as an African American, Woman, taxpayer, student, is that they DON't care.
About:
Affirmitave Action
Children
Homelessness
Health care
senior citizens
Public Schools
Race relations
Gun control
freedom of choice re:reproductive rights,
the condition of the earth,
people who are not of European heritage,
do I need to go on?
I live in California. Pete Wilson(past governor) put more money into jails than schools. What kind of sense does that make? Educate all of our children so they can make wise decesions and not end up in the penal system! Our public schools are falling apart, literally. Old books, depleting buildings, not enough qualified teachers,low pay for teachers, overcrowded classrooms, lead poisoning in plumbing fixtures, low test scores..the list goes on.

Remember when Ronald Regan closed those state and federal funded mental care hospitals? Put a lot of people on the street and in some cases, stopped or limited treatment and/or medication? My family has to constantly fight to get the state to give my brother the basic medical treatment he needs. He is mentally disabled and a parinoid schizophrenia.
Am I angry? Damn right I am.

And as far as reproductive rights are concerned, that is a DECISION that is left up to that INDIVIDUAL. Years ago, I was raped.I became pregnant. Where was the government (Bush) when I was going through all the anguish and dispair and roller coaster of emotions? It was a decision I and I alone had to make. Yes, I had an abortion. All by myself. It was the BEST decision and CHOICE for ME. I don't make choices for other women, only myself. All I'm saying is have all safe options avalible.

I'm not even going to get into Bush Sr. or Nixon.

So, if it takes recounting ballots, then fine, do it. If that makes me a "poor loser" then call me that but I think I have good reasons. It's too personal for me.

There, I'm done. I'll get off my box.

ps.
I'm not apologizing for any of my views nor do I expect anyone else to.


X marks the spot

X girl

[This message has been edited by theXgirl (edited November 18, 2000).]

[IowaHawkeye]

now there's a strong, opinionated woman for you... way to go X girl

[NewInFL]

in 1828, is the elction you are looking for, wher the "era of good feelings" ended, i can't remember the candidates I think it was Van Buren, andrew jackson, and someone else. Jackson won, establishing what is now the Republican party as a main party but at the time, was a third party. At least as much as I remember AP US history.

[kmullini]

X girl,

I'm sorry I brought you into this, but I'm just saying what I feel about the current situation. I'm not apologizing for my views, nor do I expect you to either. I respect that you have your own opinion and your reasons. I do disagree that Bush doesnt care about children. I understand you have your reasons, but I feel that he is would be a great role model to the children of this country. At least he will bring more integrity to the office than the Bill C. Administration. He is a family man and he is human. I just feel that Bush is more of a modest man than Gore. I dont really see how Bush is bad for our country in terms of race relations. I believe he would bring some great vision, reform and growth to the education system in our country too. Despite what Al Gore and his party thinks. I want to add that my dads family is from Northern California and that I lived there for a brief time after I finished school. I voted for Dan Lungren. Unfortunately he lost, but I do agree that California has some real problems. I suppose every state does. However, I dont think that they should necessarily spend less money, but I do think they need to make major reforms in that area. They do need to spend more money on Education and Rehabilitation. Although there are always going to be people that pose a safety risk to the community that can not be reformed. Whether it be rehabilitation or incarceration. I am speaking from experience(correctional officer and psych counselor) both in Ca. and in Va. I resent your comparison between Bush Jr. and Nixon. Again, I want to say that I do respect you have your own opinions.


Originally posted by theXgirl:
I wanted to stay out of this but...
My opinion is this. What Republicans have shown me as an African American, Woman, taxpayer, student, is that they DON't care.
About:
Affirmitave Action
Children
Homelessness
Health care
senior citizens
Public Schools
Race relations
Gun control
freedom of choice re:reproductive rights,
the condition of the earth,
people who are not of European heritage,
do I need to go on?
I live in California. Pete Wilson(past governor) put more money into jails than schools. What kind of sense does that make? Educate all of our children so they can make wise decesions and not end up in the penal system! Our public schools are falling apart, literally. Old books, depleting buildings, not enough qualified teachers,low pay for teachers, overcrowded classrooms, lead poisoning in plumbing fixtures, low test scores..the list goes on.

Remember when Ronald Regan closed those state and federal funded mental care hospitals? Put a lot of people on the street and in some cases, stopped or limited treatment and/or medication? My family has to constantly fight to get the state to give my brother the basic medical treatment he needs. He is mentally disabled and a parinoid schizophrenia.
Am I angry? Damn right I am.

And as far as reproductive rights are concerned, that is a DECISION that is left up to that INDIVIDUAL. Years ago, I was raped.I became pregnant. Where was the government (Bush) when I was going through all the anguish and dispair and roller coaster of emotions? It was a decision I and I alone had to make. Yes, I had an abortion. All by myself. It was the BEST decision and CHOICE for ME. I don't make choices for other women, only myself. All I'm saying is have all safe options avalible.

I'm not even going to get into Bush Sr. or Nixon.

So, if it takes recounting ballots, then fine, do it. If that makes me a "poor loser" then call me that but I think I have good reasons. It's too personal for me.

There, I'm done. I'll get off my box.

ps.
I'm not apologizing for any of my views nor do I expect anyone else to.


X marks the spot

X girl

[This message has been edited by theXgirl (edited November 18, 2000).]



[This message has been edited by kmullini (edited November 18, 2000).]

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by kmullini:
Exactly, how many recounts will it take to get the result they want.

As many as it takes to get Gore elected - which has been the point all along. I know the LAW mandates the recount, but the LAW also mandated that 5pm Tuesday was the deadline. All we've heard since is suit after suit to keep the counting going. At the beginning of all this a lot of Gore supporters were saying it was a conspiracy set up by Jeb Bush...if anything, the recount has been a conspiracy by the democrats. They want to keep counting until they can change enough votes to say Gore is the winner. If the law clearly stated the recounts were due at 5pm Tuesday, then they should have been in. Our paper headlined a bunch of people holding up "Sore/Loserman 2000" signs - it was pretty funny, but sad none-the-less because of what it represents.

[Little32]

kmullini-
Bush, a former drug user and alcoholic, is a better role model for children? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

[mgdzkm433]

I, for one, am ready to find out who the president is going to be. From what I've heard from the media, whoever is elected is not going to be able to do much in office. At this point they are going to just have to lay low and do minimal work. Not make any sudden changes and basically keep the country as it's going now. If that's true, it doesn't really matter who's president.

I want to touch base about this electorial college thing again. First, my opinion is, it should be done away with. Living in a rural state (west virginia) I hear so many people complain about doing away with it "if they do away with the electoral college--then we will never see another presidential candidtate in this state." That's a good argument. BUT--all of you worried about this, I don't know about the statistics in YOUR state, but in mine I do. This was a close presidential election--obviously--so each candidate made a visit to WV 3 times. I think that's a record. Anyway, the only reason they came here was because they KNEW it was going to be tight. Last presidential candidate to visit WV before this election? John F. Kennedy!!!!! It's not like presidential candidates vist our state ANYWAY so it doesn't MATTER if they don't come here, it's not like all that many did in the first place!

Ok, on ANOTHER note, I have more info on the presidents elected in a year ending in 0. It's called 'the X factor'. Tucumpsa (indian--I don't remember how to spell) put a curse on the presidential election process--so to say. Any president elected in a year ending in 0 will die in office. After looking through one of Bryan's many history books, we found that every president elected in a year ending in 0 HAS died in office--except Reagan--and an attempt was made. So again, maybe we should have been electing a Vice President instead of a President! I thought I'd just add a bit more info for those of you wondering.

[theXgirl]

Originally posted by IowaHawkeye:
now there's a strong, opinionated woman for you... way to go X girl


Thanks Iowa http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif