2 Black NFL Head Coaches to Superbowl XLI!!!

[AKA_Monet]

But, I haveta gloat about this one... Fox and CBS started it...

But 2 Black NFL Head Coaches will compete in Superbowl XLI in Miami!!!

I am too happy about this little fact... I cain't hep mysef!!!

[thesweetestone]

Go COLTS!!!

[Phasad1913]

I cain't hep mysef!!!

lol. it is pretty cool though.

[sigtau305]

Go COLTS!!!


No: GO BEARS!!!!! ;) :D

[AlphaFrog]

As an Illinois native, I feel obligated to agree: GO BEARS!

[Tom Earp]

WOW, more important than who is going to the Super Bowl.

Granted, it is news, but it will be news forever.

So, there were two Men who are Coaches who are Black. It is something that has been to long in coming. So, now lets concentrate on FooseBall and not people!

Oh, who is playing anyway?:eek:

[Alpha Sig Scott]

Bears by 7. You heard it here first.

[TonyB06]

WOW, more important than who is going to the Super Bowl.

Granted, it is news, but it will be news forever.

So, there were two Men who are Coaches who are Black. It is something that has been to long in coming. So, now lets concentrate on FooseBall and not people!

Oh, who is playing anyway?:eek:


Tom,
I don't assume any negative intent in your comment, and I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is sent, but I do have to say, that yes, it's a BIG DEAL to millions of Americans of color, (African Americans and others, and I would hope, as well to White Americans) and it is worth it to concentrate on "the people" as well as the event.

Our history in America makes it so. Generations before us have grown up in an America that routinely told them that they were were not good enough, not strong enough, not smart enough to be leaders, to rise to the top and to do anything that would be "valued" in America. Our ancestors knew it wasn't true and persisted in advancing and teaching those who would come behind them the fundamental lesson that "hard work, despite the obstacles you face, leads somewhere...."

And so for not one, but two sons of the African Diaspora, to lead their teams to the the biggest event in sports and one of the largest in American society (the Superbowl is annually the most watched event in the nation), yes, it does mean a great deal.

[AlexMack]

I'm cheering for the bears, on account of, screw the Colts and Peyton's ugly and what the hell kind of name is Peyton anyway?

[AlphaFrog]

Tom,
I don't assume any negative intent in your comment

Then you don't know Tom very well.:(:o :mad:

[33girl]

Speaking of Super Bowl...the Super Bowl XL champions (THAT'S THE STEELERS IN CASE YOU FORGOT) just named Mike Tomlin their new head coach. He is the first Black head coach in Steelers history (and much nicer to look at than Russ Grimm, might I add). :)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070123/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_steelers_coach_7

[shinerbock]

Not to rain on the parade, but I think it's a stupid discussion. I mean, its fine to be excited about it, but I do think it is dumb when people act like this is some victory in the fight against discrimination. I'm pretty excited that there are two white SEC QB's in the Super Bowl.

[DeltAlum]

Considering that it wasn't all that long ago that there were no black NFL head coaches at all, I think that this is a nice milestone and worthy of note.

I think the first was Art Shell in 1989, hired by the Raiders. But I'm not an NFL historian.

[shinerbock]

I agree, not having any would be rather suspicious. However, we don't need an exact percentage for things to be fair. This stuff goes on in college coaching, and its ridiculous. Alabama got crapped all over for not hiring Sylvester Croom, who may not even be the coach at Miss State much longer. If the ability is there, they'll get a shot. I have a tough time believing that organizations are purposefully avoiding black coaches. Then again maybe they are, just like NFL scouts avoid white running backs.

[DeltAlum]

Well, the NFL became the official name of an already existing league in the early 1920's -- and the first black head coach wasn't named until almost 1990.

So, were there no qualified black head coaches for the first nearly seventy years of the league?

I can't believe that.

But that's not the point of this thread.

My opinion still is that this is a worthy milestone to note.

[UGAalum94]

I agree, not having any would be rather suspicious. However, we don't need an exact percentage for things to be fair. This stuff goes on in college coaching, and its ridiculous. Alabama got crapped all over for not hiring Sylvester Croom, who may not even be the coach at Miss State much longer. If the ability is there, they'll get a shot. I have a tough time believing that organizations are purposefully avoiding black coaches. Then again maybe they are, just like NFL scouts avoid white running backs.


Uh, you are probably being too hard on Sylvester Croom. He's been working through a pretty bad situation (they were on probation for his first few years when he took over because of Jackie's stuff) and MSU beat Alabama, believe it or not. I think he probably would have been successful at Alabama.


I think we're still at the point when it's appropriate to celebrate a bit when black people reach the top. I hope we get to the point when the playing field is so level that we don't find it noteworthy, but I don't think we're there yet.

[shinerbock]

Well, the NFL became the official name of an already existing league in the early 1920's -- and the first black head coach wasn't named until almost 1990.

So, were there no qualified black head coaches for the first nearly seventy years of the league?

I can't believe that.

But that's not the point of this thread.

My opinion still is that this is a worthy milestone to note.

Well, I think more likely during most of that time there weren't many black coaches at all. Not that they would have been allowed to coach in the NFL if they were around. Like I said, its good that things are more open now, but I don't think we need all the rhetoric to go with it.

[shinerbock]

Uh, you are probably being too hard on Sylvester Croom. He's been working through a pretty bad situation (they were on probation for his first few years when he took over because of Jackie's stuff) and MSU beat Alabama, believe it or not. I think he probably would have been successful at Alabama.


I think we're still at the point when it's appropriate to celebrate a bit when black people reach the top. I hope we get to the point when the playing field is so level that we don't find it noteworthy, but I don't think we're there yet.

I like Croom fine, he may be a good coach. That being said, I don't think there are any indications that he is a better coach than Shula was. So if there are two qualified coaches, of comparable ability, and the white one is chosen, I think its pretty ridiculous to go crazy about it.

I still think it is a double standard. If I cheer for a white receiver, because he's white, people are gonna look at me funny. And when I say look at me funny, in Atlanta that means people might point guns at me. What do people expect AD's, GM's and owners to do? Can you name a lot of black candidates who have been shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates? I think things are right where they should be considering the pool of qualified coaches they're choosing from. I think its unrealistic that somebody making a hire cares so much about skin color that they'd sacrifice wins in order to hire a white person. If the quality black coaches are there, they'll get hired. I think its great that 2 black head coaches are in the Super Bowl, I truly do. However, I think to brag about it (this has nothing to do with the person who started this thread) or use it as a selling point for owners is pretty stupid.

[UGAalum94]

I like Croom fine, he may be a good coach. That being said, I don't think there are any indications that he is a better coach than Shula was. So if there are two qualified coaches, of comparable ability, and the white one is chosen, I think its pretty ridiculous to go crazy about it.

I still think it is a double standard. If I cheer for a white receiver, because he's white, people are gonna look at me funny. And when I say look at me funny, in Atlanta that means people might point guns at me. What do people expect AD's, GM's and owners to do? Can you name a lot of black candidates who have been shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates? I think things are right where they should be considering the pool of qualified coaches they're choosing from. I think its unrealistic that somebody making a hire cares so much about skin color that they'd sacrifice wins in order to hire a white person. If the quality black coaches are there, they'll get hired. I think its great that 2 black head coaches are in the Super Bowl, I truly do. However, I think to brag about it (this has nothing to do with the person who started this thread) or use it as a selling point for owners is pretty stupid.


I feel different than you do because I do think there was a long time when black candidates were shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates. I don't know enough about NFL history, but I think it's likely that without either intentional or unconscious racism that a black person could have led a NFL team to the Superbowl before now.

I think things have been a gradual process, and you may be right that it wasn't until recently that black coaches were able to get the experience to seem as qualified as whites.

Croom may provide an example. If he had gone to college six or seven years before he did, he would have met George Wallace on the school house steps. Instead, it seems he entered in 1970 (was he sixteen when he started college?) and had a distinguished football career, but when he wanted to enter the SEC to coach, he wasn't good enough. His take, reported from wikipedia is this, "A lot of those [SEC] schools, guys are good enough to play for them, good enough to be assistant coaches and not good enough to be in the positions of decision making and the positions of high financial reward. And they're qualified." At the time the job went to Shula, Shula had ten fewer years of coaching experience.

There are times when I find concerns about race overblown, and I don't generally like double standards. But this superbowl is a historic first that represents the progress of the country. These guys earned the jobs and earned the chance to coach their teams in the Superbowl. It's great.

[shinerbock]

I still don't see any problem with the Croom situation. Both were position coaches who were pretty mediocre as NFL coordinators. You're an SEC person, so you know the importance of having a big name coach if you're a big name team. Alabama was striking out when the hiring took place, and Shula is a much bigger name than Croom. Of course to really get into this I'd have to talk about how important looking good is to UA, but the point is fairly obvious. In that situation they wanted the biggest coach they can get, and Shula was a name that could keep the rebellion down. I don't think Croom is an inferior coach, but I doubt he'd do any better at UA. After all, they won 10 games last year and Shula still got fired. Plus, if they had hired Croom PC may have mandated they give him more time than Bama prefers to give coaches.

[DSTCHAOS]

WOW, more important than who is going to the Super Bowl.

Granted, it is news, but it will be news forever.

So, there were two Men who are Coaches who are Black. It is something that has been to long in coming. So, now lets concentrate on FooseBall and not people!

Oh, who is playing anyway?:eek:

Shut up.....

Not to rain on the parade, but I think it's a stupid discussion. I mean, its fine to be excited about it, but I do think it is dumb when people act like this is some victory in the fight against discrimination. I'm pretty excited that there are two white SEC QB's in the Super Bowl.

Shut up.....

[UGAalum94]

I still don't see any problem with the Croom situation. Both were position coaches who were pretty mediocre as NFL coordinators. You're an SEC person, so you know the importance of having a big name coach if you're a big name team. Alabama was striking out when the hiring took place, and Shula is a much bigger name than Croom. Of course to really get into this I'd have to talk about how important looking good is to UA, but the point is fairly obvious. In that situation they wanted the biggest coach they can get, and Shula was a name that could keep the rebellion down. I don't think Croom is an inferior coach, but I doubt he'd do any better at UA. After all, they won 10 games last year and Shula still got fired. Plus, if they had hired Croom PC may have mandated they give him more time than Bama prefers to give coaches.


Oh, not getting picked to coach at Alabama is it's own reward if you ask me, for a lot of different reasons. But Croom had incredible ties to the university, so I think there were reasons they could have gone with him too. If you haven't looked at the wikipedia entry about Croom, I encourage you to look at it.

My general point is that it hasn't really been that long since people were openly (and as far as state law, legally) discriminated against, like Alabama six years before Croom; and it's nice to look at the progress and celebrate it.

[DSTCHAOS]

My general point is that it hasn't really been that long since people were openly (and as far as state law, legally) discriminated against, like Alabama six years before Croom; and it's nice to look at the progress and celebrate it.

There you have it. Although, I know that open discrimination is not a thing of the past.

Yes, folks are focusing on the teams as they do in any other superbowl but I won't pretend that the black coaches won't also be watched (and not only by blacks who are proud of this accomplishment).

I wonder if Tom Earp will rush into a thread talking about the superbowl halftime act and inform people that we should focus on the teams and not the extranneous stuff.

[abaici]

I'm so tired of people telling other people what and who they should celebrate or what should be important to them.

[UGAalum94]

I'm so tired of people telling other people what and who they should celebrate or what should be important to them.

Yeah. But I think this thread started with people who were happy just saying they were happy.

I think the element of direction came in only when others jumped in saying that they didn't think it was anything to be happy about.

[blackngoldengrl]

I was very excited and proud (not that I had any hand in it) to see this. Also, my Pittsburgh-born roommate was excited about the new Steelers coach.
I would also be proud if someone from my college were playing in the Superbowl, but they're not.

[shinerbock]

DSTS, I'm alright, thanks.

[DSTCHAOS]

I think the element of direction came in only when others jumped in saying that they didn't think it was anything to be happy about.


That's what she's referring to.

[macallan25]

I applaud Dungy and Lovie Smith, absolutely......but I really don't think it should be made into a huge deal either. I'm more happy that Dungy is coaching in the Superbowl because of his horrible loss in the death of his son last year.....not because he is black. I'm rooting for Lovie Smith because he is an East Texas boy, same deal. People are acting like these are the only two black head coaches in football....there were seven this year. Considering they coached two of the top 4 teams in the league......I figured for quite some time that they would probobly meet in the Super Bowl.

I feel different than you do because I do think there was a long time when black candidates were shafted in favor of unqualified white candidates. I don't know enough about NFL history, but I think it's likely that without either intentional or unconscious racism that a black person could have led a NFL team to the Superbowl before now.

I really don't think you can make this claim. Hell, I don't think any of us can make that claim. I'm pretty sure none of us are or have been an interviewing general manager or owner of an NFL team. Neither you nor anyone can assert that there was most likely a time when qualified blacks were shafted in favor of unqualified whites. First of all, why would an owner want a bad coach simply because he was white? That is absolutely ridiculous.....to sacrafice wins just to have a white coach. I certainly don't know what an interview process is like for an NFL team, now or in the past, but I would guess it is extremely difficult and a very arduous task trying to find 1 guy out of a short list or whom you think is the best to coach your team......so I have a hard time listening to people who want to bring talks of discrimination in NFL coaching.

[DSTCHAOS]

there were seven this year

The irony of this announcement is overwhelming.

[macallan25]

The irony of this announcement is overwhelming.

Well lets see.....I think 7 is a pretty damn good amount for head coaches. I'm not even taking into consideration the amount of black assistants....have you looked on the sidelines during NFL games? I see a huge amount of black linebacker coaches, running back coaches, wide receiver coaches, defensive line coaches, secondary coaches, etc. About the only positions you see white guys even doing anymore is QBs, offensive linemen, and special teams.

Now lets consider who is coaching right now. Mike Shannahan, Mike Holmgren, Joe Gibbs, Brian Billichick, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher....these are hall of fame coaches........they will always have a head coaching job as long as they want to coach. So that leaves you with 28 teams out of 32 that could have a possibility of having a coaching vacancy. Lovie Smith, Tony Dungy, Herman Edwards, these three black coaches are going to be around for a while as well. John Gruden, Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Brian Billick, Eric Mangini.......they aren't going anywhere either........so that leaves around 23 teams, give or take, that could possibly shuffle coaches year in and year out. Sorry......I just find it extremely difficult to make sure you absolutely have the most qualified 23 men out of hundreds of applicants......white or black.

.......or maybe I just went on a rant for no reason and should realize that the only way black people will be satisfied is when all 32 head coaches, every player, every coordinator, and every assistant is black.

[DeltAlum]

http://www.diversityinc.com/public/1163.cfm

[DSTCHAOS]

Well lets see.....I think 7 is a pretty damn good amount for head coaches.

Clearly, black people should be THANKFUL because this society is obviously doing US a favor when there are 7 black coaches.

.......or maybe I just went on a rant for no reason and should realize that the only way black people will be satisfied is when all 32 head coaches, every player, every coordinator, and every assistant is black.

Yep...that's what such topics are all about. Black people want to take over the country and eventually the world. This NFL coach thingie is the tip of the iceburg. PREPARE FOR COMPLETE WORLD DOMINATION!!! Then we'll be "satisfied" and stop all of our whining.

[shinerbock]

DSTS, then what are you arguing for? Black people dominate pro sports, I don't see a battle to be fought here.

[DeltAlum]

DSTS, then what are you arguing for? Black people dominate pro sports, I don't see a battle to be fought here.
Except in the coaching ranks and front office.

[macallan25]

Except in the coaching ranks and front office.

Delt........then can you find me something that has the names of every coaching position in the NFL.........because i'd be willing to bet alot of money that there are, overall, more black coaches in the NFL than white ones. And by coaching I mean, position coaches, strength coaches, etc., etc.

[DSTCHAOS]

DSTS, then what are you arguing for? Black people dominate pro sports, I don't see a battle to be fought here.

WOW.

[DeltAlum]

www.nfl.com

Be sure to count the number of general managers and owners, too.

[DSTCHAOS]

Except in the coaching ranks and front office.

He knows that. We have to remember the degree of consciousness of the people we're posting to.

So back to people noting the milestone of the 2 black coaches in the Superbowl. And to hell with the people who come into this thread just to inform us that they have no level of understanding. :)

[shinerbock]

Yeah, lets start giving away NFL teams. I give up, you guys keep on fighting the good fight.

[macallan25]

www.nfl.com

Be sure to count the number of general managers and owners, too.

Oh for shit's sake.........are you kidding me? As far as owners are concerned........I don't know of too many people in this country, white or black, that can afford to just buy an NFL franchise.....I believe they are the most expensive in sports.....maybe baseball, not sure though......of maybe we should just give people teams as Christmas presents.

Considering the amount of people in this country that are worth half a billion dollars and could actually own an NFL team......I think that load of crap you posted is rather ridiculous.

[DeltAlum]

...I give up...
Great. Now Monet can be happy about two black coaches competing in the Super Bowl for the first time without being challenged over her feelings.

Which is what the thread started as.

[shinerbock]

Yeah man, we just don't understand. I generally think rooting for one race over another is wrong, but you told us. Guess we're just not at your enlightened level of "consciousness." Hell, you should talk to Bobby Petrino, if he had known about the incredible injustices in the NFL, he probably wouldn't have taken the Falcons job. Wait, for my reference, what were those injustices again?

[shinerbock]

Great. Now Monet can be happy about two black coaches competing in the Super Bowl for the first time without being challenged over her feelings.

Which is what the thread started as.

Guess you missed the several instances where Macallan and I mentioned that we too were happy for those coaches.

[macallan25]

Great. Now Monet can be happy about two black coaches competing in the Super Bowl for the first time without being challenged over her feelings.

Which is what the thread started as.


I didn't challenge here feelings at all......shut up. Perhaps you should go back and read where both Shiner and I stated that we were very happy for both coaches.

[DSTCHAOS]

Great. Now Monet can be happy about two black coaches competing in the Super Bowl for the first time without being challenged over her feelings.

Which is what the thread started as.

;)

Guess you missed the several instances where Macallan and I mentioned that we too were happy for those coaches.

I didn't challenge here feelings at all......shut up. Perhaps you should go back and read where both Shiner and I stated that we were very happy for both coaches.

You two are "cute." :)

[shinerbock]

what can I say, white kids on this board have to stick together.

[Sistermadly]

Canada did it first in 2005. ;)

[Sistermadly]

Yep...that's what such topics are all about. Black people want to take over the country and eventually the world.


You mean we don't? Darn, and that's the reason I joined an NPC sorority in the first place.... ;)

[macallan25]

what can I say, white kids on this board have to stick together.

I'll be sure to start a thread next time there is a game in which two white running backs start against each other.

[UGAalum94]

Aw, guys. It's one thing if you want to make the claim that the time has arrived that we should consider only the individual's circumstances because the wrongs of past group discrimination have been addressesed or that it's better for individuals in the long run to focus on individual merit. I don't know if I'd agree, but both claims seem like they could be made in good faith.

It's something else if you want to claim that the absence of black head coaches was purely coincidental and that individual simply "weren't qualified" for a job that in some ways there are no set qualifications for. Do you also imagine that the reason that southern schools didn't integrate until the early '60 was because there were no qualified applicants? You seem to be ignoring history completely.

I kind of doubt that every owner or general manager actually thought, "well this guy is better qualified, but we can't hire him because he's black" but other people may believe that it was that direct. I think that for whatever goofy racial reason, they couldn't see the black guy as fully qualified.

Now, I'm done too here because this thread doesn't need any more of this either.

Superbowl coaches! Woo Hoo!

[CrimsonTide4]

http://www.diversityinc.com/public/1163.cfm

:D I know the author of this article and his wife! :D

[shinerbock]

We're not ignoring history, but there comes a point, at least in my mind, where things have evened out. I don't think coaches have been hired based on skin color in quite a while, and I think the only reason its taken this long is that past lack of opportunity meant a smaller pool of black coaches. However, I think for the most part things have caught up. I do think the ownership complaint is ridiculous.

[Phasad1913]

However, I think for the most part things have caught up. I do think the ownership complaint is ridiculous.WHy do you say "for the most part" then?



I still think it is a double standard. If I cheer for a white receiver, because he's white, people are gonna look at me funny.

Well, seeing as how there is not history in this situation that would justify your cheering other than the same justification whites have given for supporting whites just because they are white forever in America, then yeah you should be looked at funny.

-And I can't believe you and your bosom buddy are acting like things are so color blind now. You KNOW the race of the man is considered when thinking about hiring them, whether they are making one statement or another. YOU all are the ones who are being unrealistic when you say or even think (and I'm sure you're forcing yourself to think this way) that those people who look at a group of individuals and have to consider who to hire don't look at the fact the one is black and one is white. Whether they utilize those thoughts to decide to hire or refrain from hiring is what no one knows, but the thoughts are most certainly there, I'm sure, and I would not doubt too seriously that they aren't jumping at the chance to pick the black man over the white one. If they do, then I think there was some internal (meaning within themselves) or external pressure to do so, which is sad.

[DSTKellie]

Well I for one am proud of the fact that there are two black coaches going to the Superbowl. ;)

[FeeFee]

:D I know the author of this article and his wife! :D

:D I know them too! :D

[TonyB06]

http://www.findjustice.com/nfl/indextext.html
"Black Coaches in the National Football League"

This report led to the creation of the NFL's current policy of inclusion of minority candidates in the interviewing processes of NFL clubs.

For the record, Frederick Douglass "Fritz" Pollard was named a head coach in 1921 in the APFA, which became the NFL a year later. Art Shell was the first African American head coach in the NFL's modern era (1989).

Both men are brothers of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc.

[DSTCHAOS]

You mean we don't? Darn, and that's the reason I joined an NPC sorority in the first place.... ;)

Infiltration? ;):eek: Spies?

:D I know the author of this article and his wife! :D

It's an interesting read. Where do you know them from? (I'm nosey)

Canada did it first in 2005. ;)

Canada's so progressive. Universal healthcare and coaches. :)

[DSTCHAOS]

For the record, Frederick Douglass "Fritz" Pollard was named a head coach in 1921 in the APFA, which became the NFL a year later. Art Shell was the first African American head coach in the NFL's modern era (1989).

Thanks for the clarification, which will lead shortsighted people to say "see, I told you people that there's no exclusion of black coaches."

Both men are brothers of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc.

Is it possible that the Frederick Douglass that the Alphas list as an honorary is really "Fritz" Pollard? :) Just kidding.

[KSigkid]

Canada did it first in 2005. ;)

Haha, let's not compare Canadian football to the NFL.

And Delt, you are correct, Art Shell was the first, with the Raiders.

[KSig RC]

An aside:

It's a well-known (and cited) fact that, although the overwhelming majority of players in the NFL are black, fewer coaches are black.

However, the 'breakdown' of coaches, compared to the overall racial breakdown of the nation, is closer/more similar.

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

[shinerbock]

WHy do you say "for the most part" then?





Well, seeing as how there is not history in this situation that would justify your cheering other than the same justification whites have given for supporting whites just because they are white forever in America, then yeah you should be looked at funny.

-And I can't believe you and your bosom buddy are acting like things are so color blind now. You KNOW the race of the man is considered when thinking about hiring them, whether they are making one statement or another. YOU all are the ones who are being unrealistic when you say or even think (and I'm sure you're forcing yourself to think this way) that those people who look at a group of individuals and have to consider who to hire don't look at the fact the one is black and one is white. Whether they utilize those thoughts to decide to hire or refrain from hiring is what no one knows, but the thoughts are most certainly there, I'm sure, and I would not doubt too seriously that they aren't jumping at the chance to pick the black man over the white one. If they do, then I think there was some internal (meaning within themselves) or external pressure to do so, which is sad.

I think it has caught up, but I leave my options open considering I don't know everything, and neither do you. I'm not gonna make some broad statement like "Nobody thinks about race anymore" even though I think that statement is likely true. How many good white receivers are there? Modern history shows white receivers don't do very well. Whats the difference in rooting for a white player because he's white, and rooting for a black person because they're black? I'm not talking about being happy for the two coaches, its been made rather clear that nobody has an issue with that. I do however think its ridiculous to root for someone because they're white/black. Thats where the double standard is. The fact is that its appropriate for black people to be proud of their race, but its not for white people. Putting history aside for a second, if I said "I'm proud, as a white person, to have Manning in the Super Bowl" people would think I'm a white supremacist. Now, to a degree I think this pride black people show in such things is appropriate, similar to how Irish and Italians were proud when one of their own made it to a significant post, etc...but siding with one race just because it is your own is something I think we need to get past in this country. Example? Duke rape case.

And Phasad, I don't think race is that big a deal in hiring. I think how you act is the key. Of course Goldman Sachs is going to be reluctant to hire somebody who although intelligent, dresses like a thug. Its not about race, its about how you present yourself. As a law student, firms absolutely eat up the black students who present themselves well.

[TonyB06]

An aside:

It's a well-known (and cited) fact that, although the overwhelming majority of players in the NFL are black, fewer coaches are black.

However, the 'breakdown' of coaches, compared to the overall racial breakdown of the nation, is closer/more similar.

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

Good question.

I think the better benchmark is the historical composition of the NFL. The highly specialized, specific skill-set nature of the NFL naturally limits the talent pool. I concur that historically (I don't have the specific stat either) that the majority of NFL players have been non-white. Given that, the 70+ year absence of AfAm head coaches, or even the chances to regularly interview for head coaching spots until recently, makes the "drought" all the more pronounced.

[shinerbock]

So black coaches should comprise 70 percent of the NFL ranks? I might have misread that, but I think thats a pretty ridiculous standard. As we all know, being a good player does not generally translate to being a great coach. A lot of the best coaches are backups who had plenty of time to sit around and analyze the game. Also, its obvious that a lot of players don't possess leadership qualities required of a good coach. This isn't really about race, just in general that simply because people can play doesn't mean they'll be good coaches.

[DSTCHAOS]

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

No one's advocating a quota system but rather doing away with the existing barriers in hiring and promotion. That doesn't mean there'll be an influx of black coaches. It means there's greater and more equal POTENTIAL.

What's the benchmark for other sports? What does the NBA do? What do baseball and hockey do? The NBA has way more black players than baseball and hockey so does its coaching and managerial positions mirror that? How many black coaches are there in majority white sports like hockey--is that based on it being a majority white sport or the fact that there are more whites (with greater access to opportunities) in society at large?

[DeltAlum]

shut up.
It isn't your place or right to tell anyone on this board to "shut up."

Period.

[shinerbock]

DeltAlum, you might mention that to DSTS too, if you feel that way.

[macallan25]

Good question.

I think the better benchmark is the historical composition of the NFL. The highly specialized, specific skill-set nature of the NFL naturally limits the talent pool. I concur that historically (I don't have the specific stat either) that the majority of NFL players have been non-white. Given that, the 70+ year absence of AfAm head coaches, or even the chances to regularly interview for head coaching spots until recently, makes the "drought" all the more pronounced.

Just because the Rooney Rule wasn't put into place until a few years ago doesn't mean that black coaches weren't given the oppurtunity to interview for head coaching jobs.

Also, just because a black football player was a superstar doesn't mean he would be a good coach....at all.

[DSTCHAOS]

DeltAlum, you might mention that to DSTS too, if you feel that way.

shut up


It's my real life AND message board staple. :)

[macallan25]

It isn't your place or right to tell anyone on this board to "shut up."

Period.

Oh ok........but its alright for DSTCHAOS to.

You made a completely idiotic, borderline dumbass statement about the lack of owners that are black in the NFL. You needed to shut up.

[TonyB06]

So black coaches should comprise 70 percent of the NFL ranks? I might have misread that, but I think thats a pretty ridiculous standard. As we all know, being a good player does not generally translate to being a great coach. A lot of the best coaches are backups who had plenty of time to sit around and analyze the game. Also, its obvious that a lot of players don't possess leadership qualities required of a good coach. This isn't really about race, just in general that simply because people can play doesn't mean they'll be good coaches.

You've misread my post. I've never indicated that AfAms should comprise 70 percent of the coaching ranks, so I have no idea where you pulled that.

Nor did I ever suggest a 1-to-1 correlation between talent and ability to coach. What I actually did say was that with the 70+ years of talent imbalance (concurring with Ksig's? point) in the NFL, I find it highly improbable that AfAm numbers in the coaching ranks during the same period, and since, grew so anemically.

Just curious, what is your take on the numbers presented in the professor's analysis (found in the link in my earlier post)?

[shinerbock]

Yeah you're right. I scan things a lot on here. I'll get back to you on the link.

I read through the link. I'm not sure what you wanted me to comment on. I think the statistics mean very little, I'm not sure what point he's trying to make. Most of those coaches coach for decent teams, and the sample is far too small to make any generalizations. If the point is to say black coaches aren't bad, then sure, thats reasonable. I don't think it says much else though.

[Phasad1913]

Putting history aside for a second, if I said "I'm proud, as a white person, to have Manning in the Super Bowl" people would think I'm a white supremacist.

Putting history aside for a second? You really can't do that because that is the premise for this entire discussion, Shiner. If history was capable of being "put aside" then, of course, it would be no difference between the sense of a need for pride in the black race as black people and that of whites in their race. That, however, isn't the case so hypothetically putting history aside doesn't do anything for the discussion which is not rooted in hypos but in reality.


Now, to a degree I think this pride black people show in such things is appropriate, similar to how Irish and Italians were proud when one of their own made it to a significant post, etc

Well, this IS the basis for how we feel so if you can understand the sentiment for Irish people and Italians, then you should understand ours. Again, I really think you're just making a specific effort NOT to understand where these sentiments come from when any person of a certain age or older and with any amount of knowledge about the world's/American history should and does know why the sentiments and sense of pride come from.

And Shinerbock, your willful reluctance to acknowledge the very REAL existence of consciousness of race in the inner-workings of every facet of this society is part of the problem in this country with working these things out. Every healing program on earth starts off by making their participants actully acknowledge that they have a problem. The society is no different. The changes that HAVE occured to date only occured because there were enough people that first acknowledged that there IS a problem and then undertook methods to fix it.

[shinerbock]

Putting history aside for a second? You really can't do that because that is the premise for this entire discussion, Shiner. If history was capable of being "put aside" then, of course, it would be no difference between the sense of a need for pride in the black race as black people and that of whites in their race. That, however, isn't the case so hypothetically putting history aside doesn't do anything for the discussion which is not rooted in hypos but in reality.



Well, this IS the basis for how we feel so if you can understand the sentiment for Irish people and Italians, then you should understand ours. Again, I really think you're just making a specific effort NOT to understand where these sentiments come from when any person of a certain age or older and with any amount of knowledge about the world's/American history should and does know why the sentiments and sense of pride come from.

And Shinerbock, your willful reluctance to acknowledge the very REAL existence of consciousness of race in the inner-workings of every facet of this society is part of the problem in this country with working these things out. Every healing program on earth starts off by making their participants actully acknowledge that they have a problem. The society is no different. The changes that HAVE occured to date only occured because there were enough people that first acknowledged that there IS a problem and then undertook methods to fix it.

What a ridiculous response. I'm trying really hard to not understand you? Come on. History is irrelevant when you're talking about going for someone just because of their race isn't it? So because people discriminated against black people, its normal for black people to root for blacks over whites? Do I have pride that my family is Irish? Sure I suppose. Would I automatically side with people of Irish heritage simply because of that? Of course not. This is of course ignoring that that is a specific and rather small country, not an entire race of people.

I agree that race is a big deal in society, but not in the way you say it is. Everyone is prejudiced to a degree, I understand that. Do I think black people are discriminated against on a daily basis? Sure. How about for whites? Same answer. Please tell me how the current state of the NFL compares to the plight of previous generations of black people in this country. Please, explain to me what exactly you think is wrong. Show me where black coaches have recently been discriminated against. What is it you want to accomplish?

[Phasad1913]

What a ridiculous response.

I'm not reading any further. It's my response. Take it or leave it. I could care less if you happen to think its rediculous. Hopefully someone else will benefit from my opinion and imput. I'm looking forward to the game. Being from Chicago, I'll be rooting for the Bears. Have a good one all.

[shinerbock]

I took and responded fairly reasonably, but alright. Go Colts, its time for Manning to solidify his position among the NFL's elite QB's.

[macallan25]

I'm not reading any further because i've been had by Shinerbock....

[CutiePie2000]

So, now lets concentrate on FooseBall and not people!
http://www.dannyveghs.com/foosball/ft250.jpg

[Tom Earp]

http://www.dannyveghs.com/foosball/ft250.jpg


Thank You for Your Insightful post!:D


Now, lets get down to Foot Ball! Like anyone cares?:( Wow and Indiania and Illonois Team.;)

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

May The Best Team Win!

[Tom Earp]

http://www.dannyveghs.com/foosball/ft250.jpg


Thank You for Your Insightful post!:D


Now, lets get down to Foot Ball! Like anyone cares?:( Wow and Indiania and Illonois Team.;)

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

May The Best Team Win!

[Tom Earp]

http://www.dannyveghs.com/foosball/ft250.jpg


Thank You for Your Insightful post!:D


Now, lets get down to Foot Ball! Like anyone cares?:( Wow and Indiania and Illonois Team.;)

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

May The Best Team Win!

[Tom Earp]

Yes, I agree, it is a big deal. I admire the MEN whether Black or White, they are hired for the knowlege that they have aquired from working hard, not because it is of color.

Why don't you ask them?

They spent their times in the trenches and proved themselves noteworthy, not because of color but brains, training and damn hard work!

[macallan25]

Thank You for Your Insightful post!:D

Thank you for the post!

Now, lets get down to Foot Ball! Like anyone cares?:( Wow and Indiania and Illonois Team.;)

Lets talk about some football! Does anyone really care about it? Wow....and there are two teams from states that don't even exist!

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

No no no, we should go down on the two black men that will be coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Do any of you guys think the coaches give a damn that they are black? I bet they are pretty worried about coaching!

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

Way to go coaches!!

May The Best Team Win!

I like to drink my own urine........because its sterile and I like the taste!!

[DSTCHAOS]

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

May The Best Team Win!

You don't know what these coaches care about, seeing as though they are fully capable of caring about good coaching and winning as well as other stuff. How about you stop coming into this thread and go find a Superbowl thread to post dumb stuff in?

[DSTCHAOS]

Yes, I agree, it is a big deal. I admire the MEN whether Black or White, they are hired for the knowlege that they have aquired from working hard, not because it is of color.

Why don't you ask them?

They spent their times in the trenches and proved themselves noteworthy, not because of color but brains, training and damn hard work!


LOL! :rolleyes: White people really need to give this "colorblind" rhetoric a rest. This thread was just stating a FACT and that some people were proud of that known fact--just like some people are proud of other FACTS that go down in American and black history. You all came in here on some other crap and led the thread to where it is now.

[UGAalum94]

As many of you suspect, I'm a nerd. As such, I'd sincerely like to keep this discussion about race going because it makes me think.

Could we maybe open another thread to continue the discussion generally, but allow this thread to be purely celebratory?

[Sistermadly]

Haha, let's not compare Canadian football to the NFL.


I wasn't. I was comparing the historical record. Traditionally speaking, African American coaches (and quarterbacks) have found it much easier to get ahead in the CFL than in the NFL.

[shinerbock]

Well, everyone is better in the CFL than they are in the NFL, to be fair.

[Sistermadly]

Well, everyone is better in the CFL than they are in the NFL, to be fair.

See, I'd rather watch a CFL game over an NFL game anyway. You must really love the game if you're playing in the CFL for no money and next to no notoriety. ;)

[shinerbock]

I can get that from college ball...without Canadians, which is a plus.

[DSTCHAOS]

As many of you suspect, I'm a nerd. As such, I'd sincerely like to keep this discussion about race going because it makes me think.

This is a place where race discussions are never held in good faith.

[Sistermadly]

I can get that from college ball...without Canadians, which is a plus.

Are you kidding? Most of the players in the CFL are American. In fact, that's how I know when it's football season in Vancouver - suddenly there are way more African American men in town than at any other time of year.

[shinerbock]

Well I assumed that, but its still a Canadian league, so I doubt its devoid of them.

[DSTCHAOS]

Are you kidding? Most of the players in the CFL are American. In fact, that's how I know when it's football season in Vancouver - suddenly there are way more African American men in town than at any other time of year.

I know a couple of African American men who went to the CFL after college in the late 90s.

[CutiePie2000]

Well I assumed that, but its still a Canadian league, so I doubt its devoid of them.

Yes, you will find *BOTH* Americans and Canadians represented in the CFL, NFL, and yes, even college football, but way more Americans to be sure.

[valkyrie]

I like to drink my own urine........because its sterile and I like the taste!!

OMG DYING.

[CutiePie2000]

I know a couple of African American men who went to the CFL after college in the late 90s.
Do you remember which team it was? Playing for Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver would be okay, as those cities have stuff to do in them. Playing for Saskatchewan or Winnipeg would be horrible, because Regina & Winnipeg are yucky.

[DSTCHAOS]

Do you remember which team it was? Playing for Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver would be okay, as those cities have stuff to do in them. Playing for Saskatchewan or Winnipeg would be horrible, because Regina & Winnipeg are yucky.

Nope. :( They said CFL and that's all I remember.

[DeltAlum]

Oh ok........but its alright for DSTCHAOS to.

You made a completely idiotic, borderline dumbass statement about the lack of owners that are black in the NFL. You needed to shut up.
Nope. It isn't. She's not told me to shut up to this point, and I didn't realize she had someone else.

I think it's childish when anyone says it.

As for my statement -- that's your opinion.

At least I can give mine without profane language.

[macallan25]

Nope. It isn't. She's not told me to shut up to this point, and I didn't realize she had someone else.

I think it's childish when anyone says it.

As for my statement -- that's your opinion.

At least I can give mine without profane language.

I tell it like I see it......should be of no surprise. It was a dumbass statement.

[DSTCHAOS]

Nope. It isn't. She's not told me to shut up to this point, and I didn't realize she had someone else.

I tell people to "shut up" all the time and did so to 2 people in this thread.

You haven't given me a reason to tell you to "shut up." When you do, I'll tell you to "shut up."

Think of it what you will.

[shinerbock]

I wouldn't worry about it guys. It's not that effective, considering I'm still talking.

[DSTCHAOS]

still talking.

You bought a voice-to-keyboard translator?

[Sistermadly]

Yes, you will find *BOTH* Americans and Canadians represented in the CFL, NFL, and yes, even college football, but way more Americans to be sure.

There's such a disparity that the CFL actually has an award for the best Canadian player in the league.

[cremson3]

But, I haveta gloat about this one... Fox and CBS started it...

But 2 Black NFL Head Coaches will compete in Superbowl XLI in Miami!!!

I am too happy about this little fact... I cain't hep mysef!!!
SUPERBOWL XLI IN MIAMI IS FOR THE DIVINE NINE!!!

[DSTCHAOS]

SUPERBOWL XLI IN MIAMI IS FOR THE DIVINE NINE!!!

Huh?

[DeltAlum]

It was a dumbass statement.
Great argument technique. Says a lot.

Just last month, a minority led consortium was able to buy a major league team -- a soccer team -- which is the first.

There have been other well financed consortiums (consortia?) who attempted to buy teams in the past.

[macallan25]

Great argument technique. Says a lot.

Just last month, a minority led consortium was able to buy a major league team -- a soccer team -- which is the first.

There have been other well financed consortiums (consortia?) who attempted to buy teams in the past.

Sorry pops, didn't realize this was a debate tournament.

Who said anything about soccer? Soccer is probobly the least expensive out of any major sports franchise to purchase. You made a statement about how the lack of black owners in the NFL should be looked on as a negative.

[DeltAlum]

Sorry pops, didn't realize this was a debate tournament.

Who said anything about soccer? Soccer is probobly the least expensive out of any major sports franchise to purchase. You made a statement about how the lack of black owners in the NFL should be looked on as a negative.
And I believe it should.

Sonny.

[shinerbock]

I assume you mean the first minority owned soccer team?

[ForeverRoses]

So to hijack slightly but

DeltAlum- after reading this entire thread, I have to say that I am proud to call you a fellow Ohio University Alum. I might not always agree with you, but you at least try and be respectful of others.
end hijack


As for Tony Dungy, I live in Indianapolis and after seeing the way he handles himself both on and off the football field, I am proud that he is going to be the "face" of the Colts at the SuperBowl. He handled a very difficult situation (the death of his eldest son) in the glare of the spotlight with so much dignity. I don't know much about the Bears coach, but if he is anything like Dungy, the Bears have much to be proud of as well.

[KSig RC]

Just last month, a minority led consortium was able to buy a major league team -- a soccer team -- which is the first.


This isn't true: Bob Johnson (http://www.nba.com/bobcats/robert_johnson_bio.html) was the actual first minority owner (and sole, at that!) in 2003.

See, the whole thing here, Delt, is that you're speaking in absolutes, and not even in correct ones at that - it's fine to decry the rhetorical strategies of others, but . . . well, you know . . .

[DeltAlum]

I assume you mean the first minority owned soccer team?
Yes. It happened in soccer a lot faster than in the "major" sports.

Actually, I've met and talked with Bob Johnson and gave him a tour of the old TCI Digital TV Center.

The point, I think, is that major league sports took decades before any real progress was made toward minority ownership.

At least that's my opinion, which I believe history will confirm.

[DeltAlum]

See, the whole thing here, Delt, is that you're speaking in absolutes...
Please read the first sentence in the comment below my signature. It's been there for a long time.

Also, although not always, I generally say, "I think," or "In my opinion."

Thanks.

[macallan25]

And I believe it should.

Sonny.

Explain how it is a negative. Owning sports franchises is about money.....not being black or white.

[KSig RC]

The point, I think, is that major league sports took decades before any real progress was made toward minority ownership.

At least that's my opinion, which I believe history will confirm.

You're really completely messing up the causation/correlation link here.

The real issue is societal - that a very small percentage of those rich enough to purchase a sports franchise (valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars) are minorities.

It's not that rich white guys are choosing not to sell the teams to rich black guys - I don't think there's any evidence of this at all. This is completely different from coaching opportunities - there is no such monetary barrier.

This means while there are probably still racial issues at play, it's a matter of scale - one is a societal issue of wealth distribution, while the other is much more direct (hiring practices).

It's nonsense to lump them together, which is what shinerbock and Macallan are saying (I think) - it's just not a similar comparison, although it sounds pretty to throw them together. One is simply not the same as the other . . . no matter what your "opinion" may be - that's not an 'out' to lack of logic.

[Tom Earp]

Tom,
I don't assume any negative intent in your comment, and I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is sent, but I do have to say, that yes, it's a BIG DEAL to millions of Americans of color, (African Americans and others, and I would hope, as well to White Americans) and it is worth it to concentrate on "the people" as well as the event.

Our history in America makes it so. Generations before us have grown up in an America that routinely told them that they were were not good enough, not strong enough, not smart enough to be leaders, to rise to the top and to do anything that would be "valued" in America. Our ancestors knew it wasn't true and persisted in advancing and teaching those who would come behind them the fundamental lesson that "hard work, despite the obstacles you face, leads somewhere...."

And so for not one, but two sons of the African Diaspora, to lead their teams to the the biggest event in sports and one of the largest in American society (the Superbowl is annually the most watched event in the nation), yes, it does mean a great deal.

TonyB06, that was not the intent as some want to make a big deal about on site.

It is my feeling that both of these gentlemen would prefer the spot light not be on them, but on the players and the game.

Do they desearve it, YES. Did they earn it, YES!

The coach I admire the most is Eddie Robinson of Grambling who did not get the recognition that He so richly desearved.

Oh, for those who do not know, he was happy at what he was doing and where he was with the school, his team, and its athletes.

[DSTCHAOS]

You're really completely messing up the causation/correlation link here.

The real issue is societal - that a very small percentage of those rich enough to purchase a sports franchise (valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars) are minorities.

It's not that rich white guys are choosing not to sell the teams to rich black guys - I don't think there's any evidence of this at all. This is completely different from coaching opportunities - there is no such monetary barrier.

This means while there are probably still racial issues at play, it's a matter of scale - one is a societal issue of wealth distribution, while the other is much more direct (hiring practices).


Right. Wealth distribution and unequal access to opportunities are the biggest factors.

The racial inequality occurs further down the line so that a very small % of minorities get past the glass ceilings and opportunity hoarding, on the part of white males, in order to compete in the franchise game.

This discussion initially was not about team ownership, which is a different beast altogether, but about head coaching. You don't need to discuss the full extent of wealth distribution to discuss head coaching.

Of course if you discuss outliers such as team ownership you will be unable to make a more substantive correlation.

[DSTCHAOS]

Do they desearve it, YES. Did they earn it, YES!

Does celebrating FIRSTS mean that the people don't deserve it, didn't earn it, and mean we can't enjoy the Superbowl as we normally would? No.

[KSig RC]

Right. Wealth distribution and unequal access to opportunities are the biggest factors.

The racial inequality occurs further down the line so that a very small % of minorities get past the glass ceilings and opportunity hoarding, on the part of white males, in order to compete in the franchise game.

This discussion initially was not about team ownership, which is a different beast altogether, but about head coaching. You don't need to discuss the full extent of wealth distribution to discuss head coaching.

Of course if you discuss outliers such as team ownership you will be unable to make a more substantive correlation.

Agree completely.

[TonyB06]

TonyB06, that was not the intent as some want to make a big deal about on site.

It is my feeling that both of these gentlemen would prefer the spot light not be on them, but on the players and the game.

Do they desearve it, YES. Did they earn it, YES!

The coach I admire the most is Eddie Robinson of Grambling who did not get the recognition that He so richly desearved.

Oh, for those who do not know, he was happy at what he was doing and where he was with the school, his team, and its athletes.
Ok, Tom
I take you at your word. I've seen both Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy interviewed recently, and while both are focusing on their teams, they each spoke poignantly about what this accomplishment meant. They expressed gratitude to those who opened the door through which they (Smith/Dungy and hopefully others) now walk. So, I think they're handling the "spotlight" quite well.

I, too, admire Eddie Robinson, who happens to be a distinguished brother of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. :) Head coach at Grambling for 56 years, more than 400 career wins; The Football Writers of America "Coach of the Year" Award is named after him.

Yep, Eddie Robinson, is, indeed, somebody's football coach....

[shinerbock]

I love the term "opportunity hoarding." Damn white males. For future reference, I plan on continuing to hoard all the opportunities I can.

On a serious note, I think there is something to be said about black Americans having to play catch up. However, its not just white people, or even mostly white people, that are holding them back.

[DSTCHAOS]

I love the term "opportunity hoarding." Damn white males. For future reference, I plan on continuing to hoard all the opportunities I can.

Thank Charles Tilley's Durable Inequality (1998) for that. He rocks.

I'm glad you're humored by it all but it's very real.

[Tom Earp]

Does celebrating FIRSTS mean that the people don't deserve it, didn't earn it, and mean we can't enjoy the Superbowl as we normally would? No.


I never said they did not desearve it!

I just said they probably rather be out of the lime light and be know for Coaches as opposed to being the first Black Coahes in the Super Bowl.

Should we as semi football fanatics enjoy the game, I guess so!:eek:

It is not the coaches who make the difference, it is the big SOBs on the field who do!:D

Maybe, the media should give Tony and Lovie a break!;)

[DSTCHAOS]

I never said they did not desearve it!


I know you didn't and neither did we.

Since no one said they didn't deserve it, why do you keep ranting about "yeah, they're black but they aren't here because they're black...they deserve to be where they are...they would probably rather not be in the spotlight about being the first blacks."

We know they deserve to be where they are and (again) you don't know what these coaches care about or if they're offended about being an acknowledged FIRST. It's like you're trying really hard to appear colorblind or something (as do many whites) when this discussion never called for it.

[starang21]

go colts

[Munchkin03]

Since no one said they didn't deserve it, why do you keep ranting about "yeah, they're black but they aren't here because they're black...they deserve to be where they are...they would probably rather not be in the spotlight about being the first blacks."


BECAUSE HE IS A DRUNK FOOL.

Yeah, I said it.

[CutiePie2000]

DSTCHAOS is the greatest and deserving of much praise and accolades.

[DSTCHAOS]

BECAUSE HE IS A DRUNK FOOL.

Yeah, I said it.

Ohhhhhhhhh.....:eek:

DSTCHAOS is the greatest and deserving of much praise and accolades.

You rock. And I guess I owe you some money for this plug. :)

[shinerbock]

I think I'm gonna start a blog where I detail all the opportunities I hoard on a daily basis. I'll post the link when I decide.

[DSTCHAOS]

I think I'm gonna start a blog where I detail all the opportunities I hoard on a daily basis. I'll post the link when I decide.

I suggest researching the issue of opportunity hoarding before you make a fool of yourself for the sake of a "joke."

[shinerbock]

I'm familiar with the subject. I fail to see how joking about it makes me look like a fool. Moreover, I don't think your judgment would carry much weight, even considering your status as a "Tilley" scholar.

[DSTCHAOS]

I'm familiar with the subject.

No, you aren't.

[shinerbock]

No, you aren't.

Your credibility would rival that of President Bush.

[DSTCHAOS]

Your credibility would rival that of President Bush.

Unlike Bush, I can tell when you're clueless on some topics.

[shinerbock]

DSTS, I'm not going to get into a whining contest with you. God knows you'd win that.

[Tom Earp]

BECAUSE HE IS A DRUNK FOOL.

Yeah, I said it.


Oh My, if that is against me as a person, then I will not put on here what I could think you might and could be!

If not, I appologize but I really doubt it!:o

[DSTCHAOS]

DSTS, I'm not going to get into a whining contest with you. God knows you'd win that.

Ouch. :rolleyes:

[shinerbock]

I know, shot through the heart.

[TonyB06]

Ok, prediction time....

Colts 34
Bears 14

[shinerbock]

Ok, prediction time....

Colts 34
Bears 14

I concur.

[macallan25]

No way the Colts will put up 34 on the Bear's D.

[Tom Earp]

The Ads and Half time will be the big part of the Attraction! As usual!:(

[macallan25]

The Ads and Half time will be the big part of the Attraction! As usual!:(

Water is wet, ice is cold, fire is hot.